There are many things that are in the bible and there are many things that are not in the bible. Historically and biblically, the Catholic church exists outside of the Christian kingdom. Jesus started only one church and that was in Jersalem on the day of Pentecost. The Protestant churches are the offsprings of the Catholic church having no connection to the church that Jesus started with the apostles at Pentecost. Did any Hebrew teach of more than one God that trinity doctrine poses? Did Jesus, who was born a Hebrew teach of more than one God as trinity doctrine says? Why do we have to look outside of the bible to establish a trinitarian view and doctrine of God? No where in scripture we find that there is a God the Son, or God the Holy Ghost. No where in scripture do we find that there are 3 gods, nor do we find, according to some, 1 god in 3 persons. Wow! so many things are leeched onto our belief system of God really makes u wonder are u truly worshipping the God of the bible. Where do we get that God is a person other than being Jesus? Does the bible say that the Father is a person or a Spirit? John 4:24 Does the bible say that the Holy Ghost is a person? I think we really need to take a look at what is taught by Jesus in the scripture.

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JESUS IS.....

Advocate (1 John 2:1)
Almighty (Rev. 1:8; Mat. 28:18)
Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8; 22:13)
Amen (Rev. 3:14)
Apostle of our Profession (Heb. 3:1)
Atoning Sacrifice for our Sins (1 John 2:2)
Author of Life (Acts 3:15)
Author and Finisher of our Faith (Heb. 12:2)
Author of Salvation (Heb. 2:10)
Beginning and End (Rev. 22:13)
Blessed and only Ruler (1 Tim. 6:15)
Bread of God (John 6:33)
Bread of Life (John 6:35; 6:48)
Bridegroom (Mat. 9:15)
Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20)
Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)
Christ (1 John 2:22)
Comforter (John 14:18)
Creator (John 1:3, Col. 1:15-16)
Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)
Door (John 10:7,9)
Emmanuel (Mat. 1:23)
Eternal Life (1 John 1:2; 5:20)
Eternal Salvation (Heb. 5:9)
Everlasting Covenant (Heb. 13:20)
Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6)
Faithful and True (Rev. 19:11)
Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5)
Faithful and True Witness (Rev. 3:14)
Finisher of Our Faith (Heb. 12:2)
First and Last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13)
Firstborn From the Dead (Rev. 1:5)
Firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15)
Father (Isaiah 9:6, John 8:24, 27, 10:30)
Gardener (John 20:15)
God (John 1:1; 20:28; Acts 20:28, Heb. 1:8; Rom. 9:5; 2 Pet. 1:1;1 John 5:20; etc.)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great God our Savior (Titus 2:13)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 4:15; 5:23)
Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)
High Priest (Heb. 2:17)
Holy and True (Rev. 3:7)
Holy One (Acts 3:14)
Hope (1 Tim. 1:1)
Hope of Glory (Col. 1:27)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
Husband (2 Cor. 11:2)
I Am (John 8:58)
Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4)
Immanuel (Mat. 1:23)
Immortal (1 Tim. 1:17)
Invisible (1 Tim. 1:17)
Judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42)
King Eternal (1 Tim. 1:17)
King of Israel (John 1:49)
King of the Jews (Mat. 27:11)
King of kings (1 Tim 6:15; Rev. 19:16)
King of the Ages (Rev. 15:3)
Lamb (Rev. 13:8)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Lamb Without Blemish (1 Pet. 1:19)
Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45)
Life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Lord (2 Pet. 2:20)
Lord of All (Acts 10:36)
Lord of Glory (1 Cor. 2:8)
Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16)
Lord of the Sabbath (Mat. 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5)
Lord from Heaven (1 Cor. 15:47)
Mediator (Heb. 9:15)
Messiah, Messias (Dan. 9:25, 26, John 1:41, 4:25)
Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6)
Morning Star (Rev. 22:16)
Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16)
Only Begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:9)
Only Wise God (1Tim. 1:17)
Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7)
Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Precious Cornerstone (1 Pet. 2:6)
Protection (2 Thess. 3:3)
Prophet (Acts 3:22)
Rabbi (Mat. 26:25)
Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30)
Resurrection and Life (John 11:25)
Righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Righteous Branch (Jer. 23:5)
Righteous One (Acts 7:52; 1 John 2:1)
Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)
Root of David (Rev. 5:5; 22:16)
Ruler (Rev. 3:14)
Ruler of the Kings of the Earth (Rev. 1:5)
Savior (Eph. 5:23; Titus 1:4; 3:6; 2 Pet. 2:20)
Son of David (Luke 18:39)
Son of God (John 1:49; Heb. 4:14)
Son of Man (Mat. 8:20)
Son of the Most High God (Luke 1:32)
The One Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)
I disagree with some of these items because they are based on interpretation.
JESUS IS.....


Almighty (Rev. 1:8; Mat. 28:18)
Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8; 22:13)

Creator (John 1:3, Col. 1:15-16)

Emmanuel (Mat. 1:23)

Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6)
This video will give you scholarly proof that man through out history has tried to alter the bible to fit their doctrine. We Must know the truth of God's word and be not deceived by the doctrines of man.


Find more videos like this on Jesus Loves You!
NO THE TRINITY WAS A LATER DEVELOPMENT In 325 A.D. IT WAS AND IS NOT PART OF THE BIBLE!
JESUS AND HIS APOSTLES NEVER TAUGHT A TRINITY WHY SHOULD WE? WE SHOULDN'T.
Evidence of the Trinity. (Think about This.)



"The Torah starts with the proclamation of the Only One, and later Judaism marches through the nations and ages of history with a never-silent protest against polytheism of every kind, against every division of the Godhead
into parts, powers, or persons."

"The first pages of Genesis, the opening of the Torah, as well as the exilic portions of Isaiah which form the culmination of the prophets, and the Psalms also, prove sufficiently that at their time monotheism was an axiom of
Judaism."

"The churchmen have attempted often enough to harmonize the dualism or trinitarianism of Christianity with the monotheism of the Bible. Still Judaism persist in considering such an infringement upon the belief in Israel's one and
only God as really a compromise with heathenism. 'A Jew is he who opposes every
sort of polytheism,' says the Talmud."

"The Jewish martyrs likewise cheerfully offered up their lives in His honor; and thus all hearts echoed the battle-cry of the centuries, 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One,' and all minds were illuminated by
the radiant hope, 'The Lord will be King of the earth; on that day the Lord
shall be One, and His name One.'"

These quotes selected from Jewish Theology, by Dr. K. Kohler, KTAV Publishing House Inc. New York, © 1968, pages 82-88

It was into this kind of world, people with this view of God that Jesus walked among and spoke to about God. The few Old Testament verses often used to try and prove God is a Trinity had no impact on the Jew's thought
about God's absolute Oneness! For some 4,000 years they viewed God as
ONE. The use of "us" in Genesis, the 2,500+ times "Elohim"
is used, a Hebrew word that can be used as a plural form of God, but is
also used in relationship with known singular heathen gods. The use of the
Hebrew word "Echad," a uni-plural form of the word "one." In
spite of all these supposed possible pluralities within the language of
the Old Testament, the ones who wrote it, in their own language, knew what they
meant by it, and did not interpret it to be plural "beings" in any
way, shape, or form! To them this was simply a way to bestow multiple glories,
majesty, or powers to their One and Only God! A multiplicity of magnificence,
absolutely! A multiplicity of persons, NO, a thousand
times! It was among these people, with this view of God that Jesus spent the
majority of His ministry teaching them about God.

So what is the Jew's view of God? God is a Spirit that is everywhere, Ps. 139:7-12. In spite of the many ways he has revealed himself in the Old Testament, his numerical integrity was not altered! He appeared as the Angel of
the Lord to Abraham, Jacob, Joshua, Manoah and his wife. He appeared as a
burning bush to Moses, a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night to
the Jew's in the wilderness. Even spoke to Balaam through a donkey! None of
these appearances changed the fact that he is One Spirit! One God! In Mal. 3:6,
God declares, "For I am the LORD, I change not;"

So does Jesus reveal God as a Trinity? It is clear from the Jew's understanding of God this would be the first opportunity for them to see God in such a way in 4,000 years, that is if God were indeed a Trinity!

How would Jesus go about revealing God as a Trinity? Would he be blatant or subtle? Would it be in a parable or clearly spoken? And although the Jew's rejected Jesus, was it because he spoke of God as a Trinity or they simply did
not see him as their Messiah? Because they could not understand the incarnation?
It is clear from the past two thousand years the Jew's have rejected the Trinity
all the way to death. So let us see how Jesus reveals God to the Jew's.

First we will look at how often each of the primary books containing the words of Jesus mentions the Holy Spirit. The reason we are looking at the Spirit is that in the trinity this is the weak link. So if this breaks then there is no
trinity! Note: This will not include other references to
the Holy Spirit within these writings. References such as the Holy Spirit
Fathering Jesus, or John the Baptist saying Jesus would baptize with the Holy
Spirit and fire. Only those references made by Jesus himself, opportunities
where He could reveal His supposed co-lateral beings.

Matthew Mark Luke John
Acts

Spirit (Holy) 6 times 3times 4 times 10
times 2 times
Comforter
4 times
Living Water
4 times
Promise of the Father
1 time

1 time
Totals

6 times 3
times 5 times
18 times
3 times 35
times

It is clear John records more of Jesus speaking about the Spirit than any other writer, with three times as many references. In fact more than the others combined! But if Jesus is indeed presenting a bold new truth about the God the
Jew's served for the past 4,000 years, wouldn't all the writers
feel obligated to help in this revelation? That is if they indeed understood and
believed it themselves? Or was it a "later" revelation?

Jesus spoke specifically of the Spirit only 35 times! That is contrasted by the 178 times Jesus refers to the Father! Co-equal? There certainly isn't equal representation in print!

Since the Trinity was not revealed in the Old Testament, we should find Jesus revealing it! Here are the 35 account of Jesus speaking of the Spirit in the New Testament. (If you consider the parallel passages, the total is more like 27
than 35! Two of MT's are also in MK and LK, the third one from MK is in MT
[making all of MK's in MT also] and one of LK's is in Acts, leaving only 27
original references)

Matthew
Matt. 10:19 & 20 "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour
what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of
your Father which speaketh in you."

(Parallel's with MK 13:11, and LK 12:11-12)

Is it not inconceivable, that Matthew waited until now for his first mention of the Spirit by Jesus? And this passage gives no indication the Father and the Spirit are distinct and separate! Think of it! The Sermon on the Mount in
chapters 5, 6, & 7. The Lord's prayer. All without a hint of a third person
within the Godhead! He even fed 5,000 men plus women and children in Mt. 14, and
4,000 men plus women and children in Mt. 15. Surely these would have been some
of His largest crowds! Is it not inconceivable that the Spirit is not mentioned
in these settings? (While it is understood that Jesus did not cover every point
of doctrine on everyday (or at least the Disciples did not record him to have).
The lack of mentioning this considering the Jew's central thoughts about God
being so contrary, if the Trinity were a doctrine Jesus meant to reveal, surely
He would have spoken on the subject more!)

Matt:12:28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you."

Once again no real distinction, between God, the Father, or the Spirit! Or are these Jew's and Disciples suppose to understand this is really a distinct person (although only mentioned once before by Matthew's account)
from the Father Jesus has been speaking of? Considering that the Jew's
considered God who is a Spirit to be their Father!

Matt. 12:31 & 32 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a
word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh
against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world,
neither in the world to come."

(Parallel's with MK 3:29, LK 12:10)

In Mathew 12, here Jesus really make no distinction between the "Spirit of God" in verse 28 and the Spirit in verse 31! In fact, in verse 31, "Holy," is added by translators. If you were in the audience
when Jesus said this, would you have known this was to mean the "third
person?" Since once again the Jew's God is a Spirit who's greatest
attribute is his Holiness? Lev. 11:44-45, 19:2, 20:3, 26, 21:8, etc. just a few
of the times the God of the Jew's is called Holy. Notice Jesus does not mention
blasphemy against the Father who he has been speaking of for the past 9 chapters
(Jesus really doesn't speak of the Father prior to Chapter 4)! Is the listener
suppose to know they are different persons? And does this mean the Father cannot
be blasphemed?

Matt. 22:43 "He saith unto them, How then doth David in Spirit call him Lord, saying, 44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45If David then call
him Lord, how is he his son?"

(Parallel's with MK 12:36)

This passage raises many questions. If God is a Trinity of three co-equal, co-eternal persons, why aren’t all three on the throne? Where is the Spirit in relationship to this throne? Does this passage reveal a Trinity? When you
consider the Jew were well aware of this passage from the Psalms and did not
find within it a plurality of deity, how could it be said this was Jesus
revealing the Trinity?

Matt. 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of
the Holy Spirit: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I
have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of
the world. Amen."

If God were indeed a Trinity, why would one member have all power? Why is "name" singular in verse 19? Did the Disciples understand this to mean a Trinity? If so, why did they not use these "titles" in the Book of
Acts when they baptized? And why is it Jesus that is with them to the end of the
World, instead of the Trinity? So thus one of the seemingly most
conclusive verses Trinitarians have in the entire Bible is surrounded with
questions regarding its "true" meaning. And then the Disciples and
Jew's understanding of it! So if God is a Trinity, Jesus waited until He was
practically in the air, and Matthew's next to last verse to give his best
attempt which actually did little or nothing to reveal Him as such! In the six
verses in Matthew that referenced the "third person" the readers
certainly were not left with a distinct knowledge of a God in "three
persons!" And particularly did not make an obvious distinction to these
Jew's in regards to their historical view of God!

Mark
Mark 3:22 "And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils."

Mark 3:38-39 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is
in danger of eternal damnation: 30Because
they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Here in Mark 3, Jesus once again mentions blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and fails to mention the Father? But in light of the context, Jesus mentions blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because they said He did miracles by
Beelzebub? But wasn't it the Father who did the works? JN 5:17, 19, 30, 36,
8:28, 29, 9:4, 10:25, 32, 37, 14:10, 11, 31, 17:4

Mark also, manages to tell of the feeding of the 5,000+ in Mark 6, and the 4,000+ in chapter 8 without mentioning the Spirit.

Mark's next reference to the Holy Spirit is the same as Matt. 22:43-45.

Mark 12:36 "For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."

If the Trinity is made up of three co-equal, co-eternal members, then why aren’t all three on the throne? And where is the Holy Spirit in relationship to this throne?

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that
speak, but the Holy Spirit."

Does this sound like a third person, or simply God's Spirit anointing? Thus Mark fails to give a conclusive revelation to the Trinity! These being all the references by Jesus to the Holy Spirit mentioned in Mark!
There was no agreement to the "concept" you are describing prior to 325 AD. Please conduct some PRE-trinity research and discover how the concept came into existence. It is not as simple as you think.

Shalom
THE TRINITY ON TRIAL!

In most any trial there is usually evidence to support both sides. Yet only one side is true. For instance the O. J. Simpson trial. There was enough evidence to acquit him in the state trial and convict him in the civil trial. Yet, we know that either he did, or didn't commit the murders. Only one side is true.

The Bible has just enough bones of a skeleton of the Trinity after being clothed with the creeds to create a doctrine that has stood for almost 1700 years. How? Consider some of the facts from the time that it was first presented. Shortly after Nicea, an "anathema" clause was added to the Athanatius Creed. Thus in 385 A.D., Priscillian Avilla was put to death
for failing to believe. It was around this period of time that the Bible was
taken away from the laity. Only the Priest would have access to the Scriptures.
A non-authorized person found in possession of a Bible would be killed. All the
way to 1536 A.D. Tyndale was killed for translating the Bible into the
vernacular. And mass was held in Latin so the people could not question.

Think about that. The Roman Catholic Church had the full support of the Emperor. Why, you could teach 2+2=5, and eventually everyone that was still alive would believe it! In fact, you could make Mary as important as Jesus without a single verse to go on! And they did! It was in this climate the Trinity flourished. You were told what to believe, and you believed
it or died! Thank God for religious freedom! And the truth of His Word!

There are many varying views of the Trinity. Some say Co-equal, Co-eternal. Other say simply three distinct persons. We will examine each of these possibilities.

Exhibit A: Co-Equal. To have three distinct persons that have equal power would be a challenge in any set up. Particularly when the Scripture is clear that this is not the case.



Item 1: John 14:28, Jesus said, "…the Father is greater than I."




Item 3: John 10:29, Jesus said, "My Father… is greater than all."

Exhibit B: The Holy Ghost: Missing In Action. If the Holy Ghost were a distinct "third person," then there are several occasions in Scripture that its absence defies all reason!



Item 1: 1 Cor. 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father all, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." When Paul defined the "one God" he failed to mention the Holy Ghost!



Item 2: Mark 13:32, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." It's as if Mark goes through the list of possible candidates to know, yet omits the Holy Ghost!



Item 3: John 16:32, Jesus said, "…I am not alone, because the Father is with me." If the Holy Ghost were a distinct "third person," wouldn't he be with Jesus? Also, Matt. 11:27, LK. 10:22

Exhibit C: Jesus Christ was NOT "God the Son!" When Jesus came to earth he did not do so in and of the power of the "second person" of the Trinity!



Item 1: Jesus tells us "the Son can do nothing of himself." John 5:19. This is repeated in verse 30. "I can of mine own self do nothing." This thought is expressed in John 5:17, 19, 30, 36; 8:28, 29; 9:4; 10:25, 32, 37; 14:10,11, 31; 17:4; Fourteen times John records this fact, the works Jesus did were not
his own, but they were the Fathers!



Item 2: Jesus tells us the words he spoke were not his own. In John 12:49, Jesus says, "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." This thought is expressed in John 7:16-18; 8:28, 29, 38; 12:49, 50; 14:24,31; 16:15; Nine times John
records Jesus revealing the words he spoke were the Father’s!



Item 3: John 12:44, Jesus said, "He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."

Exhibit D: The Father was not the father!



Item 1: Matt. 1:18, "…Mary… was found with child of the Holy Ghost."



Item 2: Matt. 1:20, "…for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."



Item 3: Luke 1:35 "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee…"

Exhibit E: The absence of key terminology necessary for understanding the Trinity.



Item 1: Key words missing from the Bible but found in the creeds. "God the Son," "God the Holy Ghost," "persons," "Eternal Son," "Co-Equal," "Co-Eternal," "God in Three Persons," "Trinity," "Substance," "Essence," etc.

Exhibit F: The people who wrote the Bible, who understand the original language, do not believe in a Trinity!



Item 1: The Jews are a very strict monotheistic nation. They cannot even begin to conceptualize "God in Three Persons." And Jesus said that they were correct in their worship of God! John 4:22, "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Exhibit G: Miscellaneous texts that the "Trinity" should be mentioned in.



Item 1: The Lord's Prayer. Here Jesus is teaching his disciples to pray. Does it not defy all logic not to mention the Son or Holy Ghost here? Matt. 6:9-13.

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom
come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our
daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtor. And lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and
the power, and the glory, forever. Amen. Just an incredible place not
to mention the Trinity! Colossal! Huge!



Item 2: On the Mount of Transfiguration. Here Jesus is transfigured before Peter, James, and John. And Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus? Wouldn't it seem more logical for the Father and Holy Ghost to appear here? Did Peter know about the Trinity? If so, why build temples for Jesus, Moses and Elijah? Mark 9:2-10



Item 3: Jesus calls the Father, the ONLY true God! John 17:1-3 Wouldn't the Son and Holy Ghost be included?

So what is the verdict? Does the Trinity stand up under examination from the Scripture? Or is it time to re-examine your faith? One day we will all stand before the White Throne. It's best to make the acquaintance before you get there!

Appendix
The Creed of Athanatius

"Whosoever will be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic [Apostolic or Universal] faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally."

"Now the Catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal."

"Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the Father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternal but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated,
but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is Almighty, the
Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty; and yet not three Almighties but one
Almighty."

"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So Father is Lord, the Son is Lord and the Holy Spirit is Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, there
be three Gods or three Lords."

The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or
after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are co-eternal
together and co-equal."

"So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who will be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity."

One of the most incredible things about this Creed (as well as the others) is it contains NO Scripture references! Think of that! What facts can a writer present to you today with any anticipation you would believe it without some sort of bibliography? And yet all of the Creeds omit this very critical aspect of Scriptural support! And while it is understood that the Bible
was not divided into chapters and verses until the 16th century,
those individuals who believe such creeds have had over 400 years to do so, and
yet have NOT!
@ Tony

OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN HALLOWED BE.......

Brother Roberts. What you are saying does not line up with what Yeshua taught. Not at all. This is why, as I said before, you need to do some PRE-trinity research because you are basically towing the party line from a political party that has existed for more than a thousand years. What you need to understand is that humans are not as benevolent as YAH. That is why they will USE each other, even prophets, kings, messiahs, for their OWN POWER. Using the names of the disciples and Yeshua gathered an INCREDIBLE amount of power and transferred it to the ROMAN GOVERNMENT. Yes, at the very instant the Trinity doctrine went into effect for Christianity, The ROMAN CATHOLIC church rose to power on the back of the Roman government. The problem is that Revelation warns against this. But you have fallen into the same trap that most of us did and which many of us are still digging ourselves out of.

Not trying to attack you or put you on blast. I just think there are some crucial things you need to know and things you are currently closing your eyes to. You said the Son refers to and prays to his Father. That provides evidence that the Father is G-d. Now when has the Father ever returned the favor and prayed to the son? Never. You talk about the spirit as if Yeshua commanded it to come. That is false for the the spirit was already in the world. Read the OT. Read the NT. Yeshua's sacrifice simply opened the door for the spirit to more people. The Father says to receive his son but what is your definition of that? Is it simple? Is it physical like a man coming over your house? Or is it more than that? Is it what he stood for and the character that he had? Yeshua's SPIRIT lives on within everyone who has his spirit. And it is the spirit of one who is a SON of YHWH. That makes us all children of YHWH, not children of Yeshua.

With all that you have said you have not proved that "Jesus" is any god. You have only evidence that YHWH is G-d and stated with your own words that "Jesus" is also G-d. That's not proof. That's confusion.

Shalom
3 Common Sense Reasons Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine
Here is a short, straightforward argument that exposes the doctrine of the Trinity as a man-made apostasy. Three common sense reasons that cannot be disputed.
#1. No Authority at Nicea -
First, lets set this up with a brief history lesson. The Trinity was cautified nearly 300 years after Christ and the original Apostles had been killed off. Christians had been persecuted and had gone underground for much of this period to avoid being fed to lions--remember that?

Under that setting, the Nicean Council and the formation of the Trinity doctrine was ordered and approved by the Roman Emperor Constantine as part of his political campaign to unite factions of the failing Roman Empire under one state religion. Not a lot of people dispute this fact, but Trinity believers try and "spiritualize" it by makingConstantine into a holy man who was led by God. Yet, there is evidence that he was never even baptized--which Christ said was necessary to be saved. (See John 3:5)

Think about it. A somewhat analogous equivalent today would be if the President of the United States gathered up all the Christian denominations of the day, had them mash-up their differing beliefs, and made a church from the consensus--a single religion for the the whole country. And it would all be lead and approved by, not a religious leader, but a political leader.

There weren't even any of the Christian leaders or attendants that claimed to be the head authorities of the church. They all pretty much laid down any authority to the Emperor. And just like in politics, the beliefs of the majority were adopted. Of the two factions that had a disagreement about the character and nature of God and Christ, the majority opinion won the debate, and the losing belief was denounced as heresy. Ask yourself when, if ever, difficult religious doctrines are approved by the majority? Do you think we'd have 10 commandments if it was put up for a vote? I doubt it.

#2. The Unknowable God -
The Trinity Doctrine is impossible to understand, yet understanding our relationship to God is central in gaining salvation and understanding many other gospeldoctrines. In fact the Bible tells us that our very eternal life depends on knowing HIM.

John 17: 3 - And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Bottom line, the 3-in-one monster conjured up by the Trinity is an unknowable being. The Trinity is confusion, and that is NOT of God, but of the devil.(See 1 Cor. 14: 33)

Honest theologians and priests will even admit that there is no way to "understand" the Trinity. They will argue that the mortal mind cannot grasp it but only "comprehend" some of it, but even that is a stretch when the scripture states that our very eternal life depends on KNOWING Him.

I also believe that if there was one doctrine that we should fully understand, it SHOULD be the one about the character and nature of God, and that he'd be a mean son of a gun to give us no way of understanding this very basic and important aspect of the gospel.

If you know anything about the history of the Nicean council, you also know that the framers of this gibberish themselves actually knew that what they were outlining was incomprehensible. That leads you to another problematic question... If the theologian/writers of the Trinity KNEW it was beyond the understanding of men. Then, as MEN, how do they know that they got it right in the first place?

That leads us to the final part of the argument. The lack of spiritual evidence that this doctrine is accepted by God...

#3. Lack of ANY Spiritual Confirmation or Manifestation -
As I have argued, this is a key doctrine that is pivotal to understand which touches most if not all other gospel principals anddoctrines, yet there is no evidence of spiritual manifestations, or any kind of confirmation by the spirit for the conclusion of Nicea.

Again, anyone who takes time to read and study the history of the Nicean Creed will be struck by the strictly political atmosphere of the whole event--thats it.

If you take your examples from the Bible you will notice that most all of the major events in scripture were attended by angels, had manifestations of the Holy Spirit, or miraculous happenings of some sort or another. Yet at Nicea, none of the attendants reported angels appearing, cloven tongues of fire, or even a simple voice from heaven. Everything went off like a session of congress with everybody trying to please theRoman Emperor.

If this IS a pivotal doctrine, why wouldn't there be SOME record of a miraculous occurance that could be pointed to as acceptance by God?

So there you have it. I think these common sense reasons are valid and very strong against the Trinity being a true doctrine. I believe that most Christian Churches of the day have accepted it simply because it is a tradition.
Tony- I have read your posts and I understand what your saying.
My point is that Nonbiblical terminology in and of itself does not mean that a doctrine described by it is necessarily false, but it does cast considerable doubt on the matter. This is especially
true when the nonbiblical terminology is not merely a replacement
for biblical terminology, but instead it teaches new concepts.
In short, nonbiblical terminology is dangerous if it leads to
nonbiblical ways of thinking and eventually to nonbiblical doctrines.
Trinitarianism certainly has this problem.and I will show you how in a moment in scripture.

Person and Persons

Speaking of God as a person does not do justice to Him. The word person connotes a human being with a human
personality - an individual with body, soul, and spirit.
Thus, we limit our conception of God if we describe Him as a person.
For this reason, this book has never said there is one person
in the Godhead or God is one person. The most we have said is
that Jesus Christ is one person, because Jesus was God manifested
in flesh as a human person.

Speaking of God as a plurality of persons further violates the biblical concept of God. Regardless of what persons meant in ancient church history, today the word definitely connotes
a plurality of individuals, personalities, minds, wills and bodies.
Even in ancient church history, we have shown that the vast majority
of believers saw it as a departure from biblical monotheism.

Three

The use of the number three in relation to God is also dangerous. If used to designate eternal distinctions in God, it leads to tritheism, which is a form of polytheism. If used
to designate the only manifestations or roles God has, it limits
God's activity in a way not done in Scripture. God has manifested
Himself in numerous ways, and we cannot even limit them to three.

The use of three goes against the clear emphasis
both testaments
place on associating the number one with God.

Tritheism

Despite the protests of trinitarians, their doctrine inevitably leads to a practical form of tritheism.
The Jews and Muslims realize this, for this is one reason they
have rejected traditional Christendom so vigorously. Throughout
history, many Christians have also recognized this problem. As
a result, some have rejected trinitarianism in favor of Oneness
belief.
Others have seen the errors of trinitarianism, but, in an attempt
to preserve the unity of God, have fallen into the greater error
of denying the deity of Jesus Christ (for example, the Unitarians
and the Jehovah's Witnesses). In short, trinitarianism emphasizes
threeness in God while the Bible emphasizes the oneness of God.

Mystery

Trinitarians universally describe their doctrine as a mystery.
however, the only mystery relative to the Godhead is the manifestation
of God in flesh, and even that has been revealed to those who
believe. A mystery in Scripture is a divine truth previously unknown
but now revealed to man.

Certainly our finite minds cannot understand all there is to know about God but we can understand the simple truth that there is one God. God may transcend human logic, but He never
contradicts true logic, nor is He illogical. He emphasizes His
oneness so strongly in the Bible that He has dispelled any possible
confusion or mystery on this issue.

The Bible never says that the Godhead is an unrevealed mystery or that the question of plurality in the Godhead is a mystery. Instead, it affirms in the strongest terms that God is
one. Why resort to an explanation that the Godhead is an
incomprehensible
mystery in order to protect a man-made doctrine with nonbiblical
terminology when the Scriptures plainly give us a simple, unambiguous
message that God is absolutely one? It is wrong to state that
the Godhead is a mystery when the Bible clearly states that God
has revealed the mystery to us.

The Deity of Jesus Christ

Trinitarianism affirms the deity of Christ. However, it detracts from the fulness of Christ's deity as described in the Bible. As a practical matter, trinitarianism denies that the
fulness of the Godhead is in Jesus because it denies that Jesus
is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
It does not exalt the name and the person of Jesus sufficiently
or give Him the full recognition that the Bible gives Him.


Contradictions

The basic problem is that trinitarianism is a nonbiblical doctrine that contradicts a number of biblical teachings and many specific verses of Scripture. Moreover, the doctrine contains
a number of internal contradictions. Of course, the most obvious
internal contradiction is how there can be three persons of God
in any meaningful sense and yet there be only one God.


Below I have compiled a number of other contradictions and problems associated with trinitarianism. This list is not exhaustive but it does give an idea of how much the doctrine deviates
from the Bible.


1. Did Jesus Christ have two fathers? The Father is the Father of the Son (I John 1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18, 20; Luke
1:35). Which one is the true father? Some trinitarians say that
the Holy Ghost was merely the Father's agent in conception -
a process they compare to artificial insemination! [109]

2. How many Spirits are there? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), the Lord Jesus is a Spirit (II Corinthians
3:17), and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit by definition. Yet there
is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).

3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God?

4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32).

5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? (John 5:19, 30; 6:38).

6. Similarly, what about other verses of Scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? (John 8:42; 14:28; I Corinthians 11:3).

7. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? Can part of God die?

8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, clearly indicating that the
Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6).

9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4).

10. Did "God the Son" surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could he still be God?

11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), how can the reign of the Son have an ending? (I Corinthians 15:24-28).

12. If in answer to questions 3 through 11 we say only the human Son of God was limited in knowledge, was limited in power, and died, then how can we speak of "God the Son"?
Are there two Sons?

13. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60).

14. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Certainly the Old Testament does not teach three but emphasizes oneness. If the New Testament adds to the Old Testament message
and teaches three persons, then what is to prevent subsequent
revelations of additional persons? If we apply trinitarian logic
to interpret some verses of Scripture, we could teach a fourth
person (Isaiah 48:16; Colossians 1:3; 2:2; I Thessalonians
3:11; James 1:27). Likewise, we could interpret some verses of
Scripture to mean six more persons (Revelation 3:1; 5:6).

15. Are there three Spirits in a Christian's heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian (John 14:17, 23; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 3:14-17). Yet there is one Spirit
(I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).

16. There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8,18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?

17. If Jesus is on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? (Mark 16:19). Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? (Acts 7:55). Or is He in the Father's bosom?
(John 1:18).

18. Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter.

19. Given Matthew 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism? (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16;
I Corinthians 1:13).

20. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father (Ephesians 1:20), or Jesus (John 2:19-21), or the Spirit? (Romans 8:11).

21. If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10).

22. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always speak of Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? (John 14:26; 15:26).

23. Does the Father know something that the Holy Spirit does not know? If so, how can they be co-equal? Only the Father knows the day and hour of the Second Coming of Christ (Mark
13:32).

24. Did the trinity make the Old and New covenants? We know the LORD (Jehovah) did (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-13). If Jehovah is a trinity then Father, Son, and Spirit all had to
die to make the new covenant effective (Hebrews 9:16-17).

25. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?

26. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?

Evaluation of Trinitarianism

I believe that trinitarianism is not a biblical doctrine and that it contradicts the Bible in many ways. The Scriptures do not teach a trinity of persons. The doctrine of the trinity
uses terminology not used in Scripture. It teaches and emphasizes
plurality in the Godhead while the Bible emphasizes the oneness
of God. It detracts from the fulness of Jesus Christ's deity.
It contradicts many specific verses of Scripture. It is not logical.
No one can understand or explain it rationally, not even those
who advocate it. In short, trinitarianism is a doctrine that does
not belong to Christianity.

The Doctrine of the Trinity Contrasted with Oneness

In order to understand clearly how trinitarianism differs from the Bible's teaching on the Godhead, I have provided a contrasting table. The left side lists the essential teachings
of trinitarianism. The right side lists the teachings of Oneness
or Christian monotheism. I believe that the right side reflects
the Bible's teachings, and this is the system of belief I have
tried to present throughout the bible.

Table 11: Trinitarianism and Oneness Compared



Trinitarianism


Oneness

1 There are three persons in one God. That is, there are three essential distinctions in God's nature. God is the Holy Trinity. There is one God with no essential divisions in His nature. He is not a plurality of persons, but He does have a plurality of manifestations, roles, titles, attributes, or relationships to man. Furthermore, these are not limited to three,
2 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) are the three persons in the Godhead. They are distinct persons, and they are co-equal, co-eternal and of co-essence. However, God the Father is the head of the Trinity in some sense, and the Son
and Spirit proceed from Him in some sense.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) are different designations for the one God. God is the Father. God is the Holy Spirit. The Son is God manifest in flesh. The term Son always refers to the Incarnation, and
never to deity apart from humanity.
3 Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God the Son. Jesus is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the incarnation of the fulness of God. In His deity, Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
4 The Son is eternal. God the Son has existed from all eternity. The Son is eternally begotten by the Father. The Son is begotten, not eternal. The Son of God existed from all eternity only as a plan in the mind of God. The Son of God came into actual (substantial) existence at the Incarnation, at which time the Son was conceived (begotten) by the
Spirit of God.
5 The Word of John 1 (the Logos) is the second person in the Godhead, namely God the Son. The Word of John 1 (the Logos) is not a separate person, but is the thought, plan, activity, or expression of God. The Word was expressed in flesh as the Son of God.
6 Jesus is the human name given to God the Son as manifested in flesh. Jesus (meaning Jehovah-Savior) is the revealed name of God in the New Testament. Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
7 Water baptism is correctly administered by saying "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Water baptism is correctly administered by saying "in the name of Jesus." The name of Jesus is usually accompanied with the titles of Lord, Christ, or both.
8 We will see the Trinity or the Triune God in heaven. (Many trinitarians say we will see three bodies, which is outright tritheism. Others leave open the possibility that we will see only one Spirit being with one body. Most trinitarians do not
know what they believe about this, and some frankly admit they do not
know. [110])
We will see Jesus Christ in heaven. He is the One on the throne and the only God we will ever see.
9 The Godhead is a mystery. We must accept by faith the mystery of the Trinity despite its apparent contradictions. The Godhead is no mystery, especially to the church. We cannot understand everything there is to know about God, but the Bible clearly teaches that God is one in number and that Jesus Christ is the one God manifest in flesh.


What Does the Average Church Member Believe?

In viewing the contrasts between trinitarianism and Oneness, we may ask what does the average person who calls himself a Christian really believe? Of course, most Christian denominations
officially accept trinitarianism. However, most trinitarian scholars
carefully distance themselves from tritheism and many use terminology
that sounds almost like Oneness.

Many church members do not really understand the doctrine of trinitarianism and, as a practical matter, are closer to Oneness belief. Some questions which if answered in the affirmative
indicate a leaning towards Oneness or a functional acceptance
of it are:

* Do you usually pray directly to Jesus? When you pray to the Father, do you switch over into language indicating that actually you are thinking about Jesus (for example, using
"Lord," "in your name," or "Jesus")?
* Do you expect to see only one God in heaven, namely Jesus Christ?
* Is it correct to say that you seldom or never pray directly to the Holy Spirit as a separate person?
* Is the doctrine of the trinity confusing to you or a mystery to you?


Based on answers to these questions and others like them, we feel the majority of Bible believers instinctively think
in Oneness terms and not in trinitarian terms. Moreover, it appears
that when a person receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit he
instinctively thinks in terms of Oneness belief.

Most Catholics and Protestants do not have a well developed concept of the trinity, do not know in detail what trinitarianism
teaches, and cannot explain Bible passages in trinitarian terms.
Today, we find a strong emphasis on trinitarianism and extremely
tritheistic forms of trinitarianism primarily in some trinitarian
Pentecostal groups. The apparent reason for this is that they
have faced the Oneness issue, have consciously rejected Oneness,
and so have gone into radical trinitarianism.

A simple question will help the trinitarian church member clarify his own beliefs. The question is: "When we see God in heaven, what will we see?" If he answers that
we will see three persons with three bodies, then he is a strong,
radical trinitarian. His answer indicates a pagan tritheism, not
the strong monotheism of the Bible.
If he answers that we will see one God with one body, then he
is close to Oneness. Given this answer, it is easy to demonstrate
from Revelation that the One we will see is actually Jesus Christ,
for in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Conclusion

The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the trinity, and trinitarianism actually contradicts the Bible. It does not add any positive benefit to the Christian message. Without the
man-made doctrine of the trinity we can still affirm the deity
of Jesus, the humanity of Jesus, the virgin birth, the death,
burial, and resurrection of Christ, the atonement, justification
by faith, the sole authority of Scripture, and any other doctrine
that is essential to true Christianity. In fact, we enhance these
doctrines when we adhere strictly to the Bible message that Jesus
is the one God manifested in flesh. Adherence to Oneness does
not mean a denial that God came in flesh as the Son or a denial
that God fulfills the roles of Father and Holy Spirit. On the
other hand, the doctrine of the trinity does detract from the
important biblical themes of the oneness of God and the absolute
deity of Jesus Christ. Therefore, Christianity should stop using
trinitarian terminology and should go back to emphasis of the
basic Bible message. Most Bible believers do not think in strong
trinitarian terms, so a transition away from it would not be very
difficult, at least on an individual level.

On the other side, strict adherence to Oneness belief brings many blessings. It places emphasis where it should be - on the importance of biblical terminology, thought, and themes.
It establishes Christianity as the true heir of Judaism and as
a truly monotheistic belief. It reminds us that God our Father
and Creator loved us so much He robed Himself in flesh to come
as our Redeemer. It reminds us that we can receive this same Creator
and Redeemer in our hearts through His Own Spirit.

Oneness magnifies Jesus Christ, exalts His name, recognizes who He really is, and acknowledges His full deity. Exalting Jesus and His name in preaching and in worship brings
a mighty move of His power in blessings, deliverance, answered
prayer, miracles, healing, and salvation. Wonderful things happen
when someone preaches a message on the deity of Jesus, the name
of Jesus, and the oneness of God, but rarely does one get inspired
over a message on the trinity.

A strong belief in the oneness of God and the absolute deity of Jesus Christ is a crucial element in restoring the church to true biblical belief and apostolic power.


The Lord Bless you today.
Jesus said If you don't believe that I AM He you shall die in Your sins that same I AM that Jesus said is the same I AM that spoke to Moses in the burning bush which is the Father. Jesus was telling them that HE IS THE SAME I AM That spoke to Moses.Read it for yourself.
John 8:24-27 (King James Version)

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

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