God's Perfect and Permissive Will (the myth of it all)

[Jonathan Anthony]

Here's the thing. To say that God has two wills is to say that He is of two minds on everything. True there are things that influence how God's will is done on the earth, There are demonic influences, as well as human influences. God's will is God's will period. He is not so impotent that his plans are upset by the interference of man, demon or angel. Is He sovreign of course He is, He is so much so that even as things unfold He is not surprised and is in such control, he can work things out to His purpose.

[Lester Demings Jr]

There is no such thing as "permissive will."

 

God's will is the only will.

 

God will ALLOW you to do what you please once He realizes you stuck on something but believe me eventually you find out you should have just did it His way from the beginning.

[Joseph Gill]

I don't think this is usually taught as there being two counterbalancing mindsets of our God. The perfect will and the permissive will are actually reflecting two different meanings for the word "will."

 

When discussing the "desire"--or "preference"--that God has already expressed through His word, theologians use the term "the perfect will of God."The definition of "will" in this case is "disposition" or "inclination."

 

When discussing how the free will choices of human beings are not countermanded, but instead allowed to come to pass, theologians use the term "the permissive will of God." The definition of "will" in this case is "providential power or authority."

 

Free will allows human beings to do things that do not align with God's revealed intent and commands. Like when a burglar broke into my apartment and stole from me. God could have overruled the burglar's intentions, given him a heart attack while he was picking the lock, or something... But instead He permitted the thief to succeed in his criminal enterprise. Which in no way means God ordained or excused the criminal behavior, or that the thief will go unpunished.

 

 

[Jonathan Anthony]

Here's the problem with your statements.

1. If a "permissive will" exists then that would mean that God is of two minds about everything, because there would be of course what He wants, and then what He is willing to allow and slap the title God's will on. This supposition is problematic at best because it conflicts with the statement "whatever God does is good" See for what you said to be true, that would have to mean that every kid that has been molested, raped, or killed was good and thus part of God’s plan. It would also mean that the millions of people who were lost in the halocaust as well as those who were lost in the middle passage were also part of a good plan because after all it was part of God’s  so called permissive will… What utter nonsense!
2.  In short tell me where are we supposed to get our picture of what God is like from? Its supposed to  be Jesus, can we agree on that. After all there are numerous scriptures that tell us that He (Jesus) is the express image, essence, fullness of God. That being the case, when did Jesus inflict pain, sickness, death on any of the people He ministered to?  Can we agree that He did the exact opposite?
3. Knowing this we have to examine our idea of control when it comes to God. I believe that there are four kinds of control
   1. Primative control, in short brute force,
   2. Machiavellian control  (real breif philosophy lesson) Machiavelle wrote a book in the 15^th century called “The Prince”  in which he expressed that if one wanted to rule people manipulate them into believing that they were in control of their own destiny, when in actuality they are working your will.
   3. Wisdom in short allowing wisdom to influence the ones being controlled
   4. Agape in short sacrificial love that enables the object of ones affection to willingly submit based on love and not out of obligation.

Having read all this which one or ones do you think God operates in?

[Joseph Gill]

If a "permissive will" exists then that would mean that God is of two minds about everything, because there would be of course what He wants, and then what He is willing to allow and slap the title God's will on.

Again, the concept of will in "perfect will" has to do with what God wants, but the concept of will in "permissive will" is what He providently allows. Being "of two minds" would actually mean God wanted two conflicting outcomes. But this not what the teaching about permissive will is claiming. So there is no picture of God being double-minded.

 

This supposition is problematic at best because it conflicts with the statement "whatever God does is good." See for what you said to be true, that would have to mean that every kid that has been molested, raped, or killed was good and thus part of God’s plan. It would also mean that the millions of people who were lost in the halocaust as well as those who were lost in the middle passage were also part of a good plan because after all it was part of God’s  so called permissive will…

In this concept of permissive will, we are discussing of course actions performed by free moral agents, humans. These are not things that God does, so the phrase "whatever God does is good" would be misapplied. God didn't molest any child; God didn't engage in the genocidal attacks of the holocaust or the middle passage. Human beings committed those atrocities, exercising their free will to do so.

 

This is illustrated in scripture. One famous example is the how the nation Israel chose a king. God’s desire was that He Himself should be their king and rule them. But, He foreknew that the Israelites would ultimately choose a human king, in emulation of the nations around them:

 

When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. [Deut. 17: 14,15]

 

God only allowed the people to have a human king--it was not His perfect will.

[Jonathan Anthony]

What you are saying is God's will sounds very Machiavellian

[Joseph Gill]

We know what Machiavellianism is (indeed, heads of state had employed the philosophy many centuries before The Prince was written). In Machiavellianism, the protagonist has a desired outcome, and to achieve it he will deceive, frighten, extort, bribe, or by any other unscrupulous means convince independent actors to do what is ultimately not in their best interests.

 

Now look at how God has worked in history. Take even for example the establishment of a human monarchy in Israel (I referenced that event in my last post). What was God's desired outcome? To borrow Gideon's phrase when he refused a kingship, that "the LORD shall rule over you [the Israelites]." Nonetheless, in His omniscience, God knew that the Israelites would covet a human king. So he established guidelines for future kings of Israel centuries before the first one was chosen [Deut. 17:14-17]. That isn't God tricking the Israelites into pursuing His desire... that is God making allowance for their own lesser choice. In this example, God shows Himself to be the anti-Machiavelli.

 

The usual complaint is that God is too compliant and compromising with humanity in the "permissive will" concept. Critics say it makes Him look milktoast, not Machiavellian. But I also reject the usual complaint. God isn't compromising when He allows His creation to make free will choices. God still judges the lesser choices as sinful, and He still chastises sinners.

[Jonathan Anthony]

. God isn't compromising when He allows His creation to make free will choices. God still judges the lesser choices as sinful, and He still chastises sinners.

 

Here is the problem with your statement here, So if someone marries someone who is not "God's best" and I wonder how one would be able to make such a distinction. You are saying that the marriage is sinful? Is that not contradictory?

 

In making allowances for free will God is not getting what He wants, why then would He sap the title "my will" on it. That seems trite control freakish, God does not micromange the universe, He is so sovreign that He does not need to be in charge of every little detail thus the whole free will argument. (It also poses an issue for most Calvinists as well)

[Joseph Gill]

Here is the problem with your statement here, So if someone marries someone who is not "God's best" and I wonder how one would be able to make such a distinction. You are saying that the marriage is sinful? Is that not contradictory?

 

I'm sorry you made that inference from what I wrote. God still judges lesser choices... By the lesser choices I only mean ones that stand in opposition to God's revealed will (His word). God told Israel that He wanted to lead them, but later they demanded that Samuel anoint them a human king... that is why that is an example of making a lesser choice. Choosing to marry is only a lesser choice when it flies in opposition to God's word. There were examples of forbidden marriage, like a son of Aaron marrying a divorced woman--that was forbidden in the Mosaic law [Lev. 21:7]. But if a marriage doesn't abrogate Holy Writ, I cannot see how it would be a sinful choice. 

 

 

In making allowances for free will God is not getting what He wants, why then would He sap the title "my will" on it. That seems trite control freakish, God does not micromange the universe...

 

Actually, on this matter we agree; but I would contend that the concept of providential care is not micromanagement of every decision made. God doesn't sweat bullets over whether I eat pancakes or cereal this morning. When discussing the permissive will of God, the focus is on decisions that have a moral dimension; even more specifically, choices that defy what God has already told us He wants from our lives.

 

[Jonathan Anthony]

 In Machiavellianism, the protagonist has a desired outcome, and to achieve it he  will deceive, frighten, extort, bribe, or by any other unscrupulous means convince independent actors to do what is ultimately not in their best interests.

 

This is something that I have heard preached across pulpits in black churches. And the philosophy is that not only will they do what the antagonist wishes them to do, it does not have to be something that is not in thier best interest,   I have heard it said that if one does not follow God's so called perfect will that the person will be rewarded, if not then what happens is "less than God's best" but somehow these same misguided preachers slap the title oh its still part of God's will because He knew that the person was not going to go for His will but He is so sovriegn that He is still able to slap the title God's will on it. This paints God as both a control freak and somewhat of a nurotic.

[Pastor Melvin King]

My Brothers,

All of God's will is perfect; and it is one. Whether he permits it or commands it, His will IS. And everything that transpires according to His will, regardless as to whether it be good or evil, is perfect; for He is perfect. All things good and evil which is wrought according to His will works together for good, and is therefore ultimately good, because God's will is done. We are nothing that we can judge God. How is it that we think that we can judge whether what He does or allows within the confines of His on will, good or evil. If God wills it, Its all good. Do you not preach that we all deserve death and hell if not but for the work of the cross? Do you not agree that just being born into this world is sin enough to go to merit death, seeing that in sin were we born, and that we were shapened in iniquity? If a child dies and his parents are unbelieving, does the child deserve not to die? Does being a child make him sinless and grant him immunity from the penalty of death? Nay, but he deserves death as well. All of us do. For this cause, it is appointed unto man once to die. But thanks be to God that He is a merciful God, and happy is the man who obtain His mercy before his appointed time of expiration. Is it God's will that a child should perish? Again I say Nay. It is not His will that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But how could any man know what is good and what is evil except the God who make good and create evil put the law in him? If it be so then that we could not know without Him who knows His will and can do no wrong, how then can we judge the counsel of His will? God's will is perfect...and it is One. Is God divided? Are we? How then is the divided able to comment on the will of the undivided in the manner that you have? Dare you question His counsel? are you His judge or jury that you should scrutinize Him, to examine His will whether it be good or evil? Sometimes His will is to good. Sometimes it is to evil. But it is never wrong. Men wrestle continually against His will and deem it right to do so, as though this gives them some badge of honor (relationship-wise). It is not the wrestling match He wants. Maybe what we turn into a struggle was meant to be a hug. Embrace His will. It's ALL good.

[Jonathan Anthony]

Wow what a religious answer. While I agree on substance what you are saying your answer appears clouded by a fog of religiosity.You make the statement “ Sometimes His will is to good. Sometimes it is to evil. But it is never wrong”. If you will allow me Brother Pastor to dissect this statement as religious as it is,is hermnutically incorrect. God’s will cannot be good and evil at the same time. Have you not read in James “Let no man say when he is tempted that he is tempted by God, for God tempts no man with evil”? Have you not read that before Brother Pastor? I read your answer and yet while I see your zeal, I see it as of one who is a religious man. I do not want to believe that but some of your answers point in that direction.
Knowing God’s will requires that one do some critical thinking about who God is, for example your answer does not take into account the person of Jesus Christ. How do I know this? Because you answer as verbose as it is, is void of cogent thought to the person of Jesus Christ. Does Jesus want us to know the will of God? Of course. Can we know it? Of course. I agree with your assessment that there is only 1 will of God, but to couch it in a religious fog as you did is less than ideal. What if someone who is not as learned as you were to read that? Are you really saying that you are a pastor of the same cloth of the one who upon hearing about the death of a young woman’s child told her that she apparently loved the child too much and God took the child because she loved the child more than she loved God? Or are you the kind of pastor who states that the millions who died in the concentration camps of Germany, and those who are molested and raped, are done so because God wants them to die,and be raped and molested. It must be so your statement says that its all God’s will and its all good…. Brother Pastor your statement is akin to those of Job’s friends who spoke not out of wisdom, but religious zeal. I do not mean to be harsh, but sometimes its ok to say you do not know, its ok to tell God that you are frustrated with something that has happened. It is not ok for the ministers who serve the people of God to try and quote religious clichés and think that it will be ok. I feel that this is a problem a serious one in the black church more than anywhere else. I believe it to be an issue of pride and we must overcome it if we hope to equip the people of God to get out and minister to the needs of those outside the church. That is if this is what we desire to do, sadly there are those who feel that we should have absolutely nothing to do with those outside the church, apparently they have no clue as to what our purpose is.

[Joseph Gill]

Sounds like you would have a problem with Joseph's explanation to his treacherous brothers: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." And how do you read Paul's statement "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose"?

 

The core of the principle of providential care is that God will take sinful decisions by men and use them for the furtherance of His glory and our (the believers') ultimate good.