I now understand more and more about this so-call world of "Hip-Hop". I understand now why "Hip-Hop"has really no place in our churches and yet it's slowly creeping in our church doors. After hearing all of this, I will stand behind fellow clergy members by NOT allowing "Hip-Hop" into our churches.

Pastors,Ministers and Church Leaders, would you allow "Hip-Hop" in your churches? Is this a way in keeping our youth in church? I am interested in all feedback concerning this issue.

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Amazing how you have ducked and dodged my question as a reminder:

Jonathan, whatever reply we give, you will continue to say we didn't answer your question

Because in truth you haven’t.. I asked you to explain the difference between the darkness in secular hip hop, and holy hip hop, I even conceded that there is a darkness in secular hip hop. And yet you two brothers appear either unwilling, or unable to answer the question.

We have expressed over and over again what we feel the darkness in the so-called Holy Hip-hop music is all about. Here are more answers to your question, "What is the darkness in hip hop?" That my dear brother is not the question I asked you
First, it is APOSTASY!! secondly, it brings WORLDLINESS into the church in an attempt to reach young people which in effect is PRAGMATISM.

How is it apostasy? Once again using your logic, it can be said that ALL the music in the church currently especially the black church, is in a state of apostasy because given the beat and sound it sounds much like the same music one would here on a V103 R&B station. In fact many times during the given day one can hear Yolanda Adams, Dorinda Clark Cole, or even Marvin Sapp on these stations, and even during their “quiet storm” nighttime shows. Your platform and logic is flawed in that way, because all of it sounds the same, it’s the words that make it different, or if you are saying that it is not, then “Never would have made it needs to be scratched off the list as well because it is played on these same stations and during some of the hours that I mentioned. The reason you are not advocating the removal of the other singers and their music is because you sing it and they make money, it draws people to COGIC churches, and they bring their money with them. You would rather have one form of apostasy than admit that you are wrong on both ends. Pastor Hodge is not ignorant, he knows that music is a draw being a COGIC pastor he knows that when his choir sings songs like “My name is Victory” and “I am Healed” or when they sing the latest song by the hottest artists, that is a draw, and the offering for that day is larger than it was the previous Sunday. And you wish to speak of Pragmatism?? Choirs sing the hottest song, the pastor gets up lifts an offering immediately after the choir sings…. Oh and Pastor Hodge it is bad form to libel people in the middle of a debate. I realize that it is tempting to attempt to try to discern what my intent is, but in this case if a spirit is telling you I am getting paid for something, other than the IT work that I do, it aint the Holy Spirit…. (“Bro. Anthony must be getting paid in order to not hear and not see that there is no fellowship with Holiness and wickedness”) Bad form brother Hodge… I make no assumptions about you, nor do I attempt to paint you in a negative light, I do wonder about your prideful attitude at times, but I have learned to overlook that and try to see the man of God therein.

Third, it is mixed with CORRUPTION, because it has drawn secular record producers who see dollar signs and will think nothing about using the Name of Jesus to help make them rich.

I am sorry I did not know that Fred Hammond, along with the Clark sisters were so corrupt as to try to make their music sound like something pleasant to listen to.

Let me ask you a question, would it be OK for the church to pass out free beer, in order to reach the alcoholic? Should the church show XXX videos to reach the sex addicts? Should the church pass out needles to drug addicts?

I have advocated no such thing. I never have, so your misdirection fails here, as it is not relative to the conversation we are having. Tell me Spencer, how do these lyrics sound
you loved so you came,and you died then you rose again
Because you loved me unconditionally
You looked beyond my wrong and shame
brought me from darkness into reality and now I'll never be the same...".
You’ve got my full attention
My minds open wide
My heart’s right behind it
So come on and live inside
I’m not to young to know
And never too old
You love me
And oh how I need you so…

These lyrics do not speak of any darkness my brother, or would you deny that as well? Tell me these lyrics are demonically inspired?
These lyrics do not speak of corruption, or would you level so heavy a judgement on them as well?

I say give me that old-time religion, but you say "give me that showtime religion" ,

Actually I do not say either, I have no time for religion… I would rather have a relationship with the lover of my soul. If its religion you are after, or that you peddle, we can end the conversation now, because I am into bringing people into relationship with their Savior, religion tends to keep people away because of all the rules and regulations. Jesus stands against religion. I don’t want,no one wants rules and regulations clouding the need for a relationship with God. Jesus came to destroy religion, not to have you exchange one for another. If you want your old time religion, where you cannot skate, cannot go to the movies, cannot enjoy your life and wind up looking like you spent you life eating lemons go right ahead

the Bible says, "feed the sheep" but it appears that you are saying, "amuse the goats". Again, lest you have forgotten, pragmatism is the notion that may be judged by their practical consequences (results), the pragmatist thinks a certain course of action (in this case hip hop music in God's house) is right because it is effective in bringing people who would not otherwise attend church to church. But Acts 2: 47b says, "...the Lord added daily such as be saved", the Lord added, not the Gospel Gangstaz, the Lord added, not Out of Eden--but the Lord! Here is something else the Bible says, "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who choses to be a friend with the world is an enemy with God"- James 4: 4. What is the darkness in hip hop? READ YOUR BIBLE!!!


"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of man (flesh), after the rudiments (ignorance) of the world, and not after Christ- Col. 2: 8.

So you are comparing following Jewish laws and customs with Hip Hop… Context my brother please tell me that you knew that was what Paul was speaking about…

What is the darkness in hip hop? Again, READ YOUR BIBLE!!! "

That is not the question I asked you. Why are you behaving in such a childish manner attempting to circumvent the question as asked? What is the darkness in holy hip hop, you cannot use the examples of the profane, why? Because by definition they do not apply…Why don’t they apply, because the lyrics are different, the intent is different, the effect is different. The beat is meaningless, Do you really think that God is so stupid as to account for the beat and discount the words? As many scripture references as there are with regard to words and things that are spoken, and the fact that we are to be judged not by the beat that is used, but every word that we speak (Matt 12:36).

Do not be conformed any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and prove what God's will is--His good, pleasing and perfect will" - Romans 12: 2.

No one is saying conform. But since you are saying that we are, take it all the way there my brother, this of course means that only the old hymns by Fannie Crosby, and other 18th and 19th century lyricists will be sung in your church. This also means that no more songs by Fred Hammond, Richard Smallwood, Andre Crouch, Jonathan Nelson, or even Joann Rosario. What time should I join you in protesting outside the Stellar Awards Ceremony this weekend? I am in earnest, if you are willing to go all the way there, I will join you in Nashville on Sunday and protest with you. After all 90% of all gospel music sounds like what comes on most pop and R&B radio stations.

This is the answer I offer to your question, "What is the darkness of hip hop?" If you don't understand it is because the gospel has been hidden from you. - II Corinthians 4: 3-4.

By the way the reason I do not accept your answer because it is a non answer to the question as posed. You are telling me the darkness in hip hop, I did not ask you for that. I already conceded that there is darkness in secular hip hop, In a debate as this is, you cannot use a conceded point in order to make your point. You have to be original. You have dodged, danced around and even ducked my question. If we were in court I would be asking the judge to instruct you to limit your answer to the question as asked. In a debate you answer directly the question as asked, you do not get to choose how to answer, you simply provide an answer. If you do not have one, simply say so.
So now you are questioning my salvation because I do not agree with you. WOW, it has come to that Spenser, and I thought more highly of you than that. I would not ever question another person’s salvation because they do not agree with me. That is silly, that is foolish, that is dangerous. Lets cut to the chase, the conclusion of the matter if you will, as there are far more important things that beg for my attention at the moment.
1. You do not like hip hop, in any form
2. You are willing to use the Bible to make your point
3. You could care less what anyone has to say about the subject, you do not like it.
4. You see any attempt by anyone to use it as a threat to your stance so you are willing
To vilify, and demonize them in an attempt to bring them under “control of the spirit”
5. You see anyone involved with Hip Hop as unregenerate hell bound, and you would do nothing to stop them on their journey.
6. Your personal dislike of the music, has blinded you to the people, and instead of praying, instead of wanting to minister to them, you would consign them to hell. Neither of you have said one word, not one single solitary word about reaching out to any of them. I have heard you demonize them, something not even Christ in his time did while He was here.

These based on your attitudes and writings here appear to be your stance. I am fine with it. I have not run out of steam I simply see no more need to argue with you. I have better things to do with my time than to argue with men about issues that they are resolute about, regardless of how wrong I may believe them to be. Had you told me that the behavior of some of the Holy Hip Hop artists were unregenerate I would have accepted that as a valid answer. Instead you painted with a very broad brush. That’s just like saying that all pastors are crooks and simply after the money. I know better because I was raised better
Bro, Anthony,

You assume ALOT about a church you have never been too. I raise on offering, I don't have a chior, I don't even have musicians; I am looking for one (but they have to be saved and that seems to be a problem) I don't have time to play games...the people pay their tithes and offerings and I trust God to make it work... You also vasilate in your argument...I nor are we discussing the lyrics again sir the topic and focal point of the objections is this: Should the songs from Hip Hop Music be taken with a simple name and word changed be repackaged as Holy Hip Hop? the answer is simple: NO! Absolutly not!

In terms of the hip hop performers...since they are not the topic of this discussion; I have no opinion of them (They should get saved) other than that me dressing to look like them, sound like them, talk like them acting like them is probably not the best way to win them...there would be no incentive for them to change to us...if w change to them already...

In terms of Clark, Adams, and Sapp you actually right some their songs are so watered down and worldified that you can hear them on the secular station and not even recognize it as a Gospel song...that is a sad testimony!

Now again you assume alot, you actually think that I am so hypocritical that I would play that...stuff in my Church and then get with about this Foolishness. Listen the problem with your argument with me is that you assume that because I am a Pastor in the COGIC that you know me...Listen I have been in COGIC a total of 16 years (from he time I walked in the door until today as a Pastor) so your application is flawed, If its not bible I leave it alone.

You asked where is the Darkness in Hip Hop? Hip Hop is born out spiritual witch craft i.e. Rebellion it is an angry beat designed to reach the very base of the flesh; that raw angry beat that is used in the islands and in parsof africa to drum up evil spirits...MY family is from St. Thomas...the brother was right but again you question his authority to speak...the Church.

The other fact that you can't seem to admit is simple: I you change the name from "She's a Super Freak to Jesus is the Supe King...it wont make anybody forget the words to the original song...there is no anointing in She's a super freak...now this discussion is not whether I like the music is based on the aformentioned concept which is the ver bases of adultery!

Now if you are not getting paid (which that was a figure of speach not to be taken litteraly) you should be! if you were a lobbyist working for me; I would pay you...but in all seiousness; so that we are consistant with our respective positions let us reply to the actual person that made the argument. While I agree with the above arguments I did not make them...Pragmitism is not my argument! Adultery, demonic worship, satan based, lying spirit, lack of anointing, totally and utterlly rediculouse is my argument against it; but pragmatism...I could probably be accused of that...so sorry not my argument.

So with respect to your "Jewish custom" quote; I have no idea what you're talking about!

My Hope for you Bro, Anthony, is that you repent from your position, surrender yourself to
God in prayer seek his face and turn from your wicked ways. and then hear from heaven and let the Spirit of the Lord give you a new Music for a New Song and that you willbe the catylist for Holy Change in the arena of Gospel Song! and if physically possible; I would be with you at the awards because I think personally that they are nothing more than an afront to God! the devil rewarding Gods people for sounding unGodly!

Pastor Hodge
Nobody here is talking about repackaging secular hip hop. Gospel hip hop is totaly against that. Maybe you have come in contact with some amatuer artists locally that may have done this, but the artist we are defending are originators not imitators. They have original beats and original lyrics. They hate secular hip hop more than you do!
Maybe there was a breakdown in communication here, because none of us ever advocated repackaging secular hip hop. The groups that I advocate are the crossmovement, da truth, trip lee and others like them. I have met these men personally and I know where their hearts are and they have gotten more people to stop listening to secular hip hop than any of us on this forum.
Pastor Hodge,
I agree with you, repackaging secular hip-hop in gospel form is not right. However, in support of Brother Anthony's comments, no one here is suggesting that. I would not allow 50-cent or any other secular artist to minister in my church unless I knew they walked away from their worldly music. Like Brother Anthony said, the defense we are making are for the innovators -- those who have chosen to eschew the ways of the world in favor of those of the Kingdom.

That said, my challenge remains. Please present a list of acceptable music that we may use in praise and worship. I anxiously await your reply.
Brother Day with all due respect I doubt seriously that even he can give such a list because he refuses to answer a simple question. He answers a question that was not asked of him and calls himself answering it. Its sad that.His stubborness refuses to allow him to actually comprehend the question I asked so I will ask it again in all caps maybe if I shout the hearing aid might work...

To those who understand the question that I am asking I pray perhaps you can intervene help the brother see I am not asking WHAT IS THE DARKNESS IN HIP HOP, I have already conceded that darkness is there, What is the darkness in holy hip hop? Is it really that hard to understand the question as asked. Wow if we were really in a formal debate the audience would be laughing him and brother Miller off the stage by now. Answer the question Pastor, WHAT IS THE DARKNESS IN HOLY HIP HOP? Your answer about the beat does not hold water because it is not biblical God is not silly stupid or as unaware as you would make Him out to be. To say that the beat is more important than the lyrics sells God short... really short. He says multiple times it is your WORDS that locate, determine you progress, even where your faith is at. There is no mention of a beat at all. So please answer the question as asked, or admit that you cannot. either way honestly you are starting to look foolish, (and its your own doing)
Brother Hodge, that is no assumption it happens every Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday at your local COGIC church
again sir you have opened your mouth and inserted your foot...I teach on Wed, and have open question night on Friday and I don't hve a chior so what are you talking about?
LOL Pastor, when someone says, your local grocery store, and you happen to own one, do you really think they are referring to your store...
It really is not all about you... There are COGIC churches that are near you are there not?

And if there are, would they not also be considered local. If local could it not be further extrapolated that what i described happens there?
No hoof in mouth disease here sir, the statement stands on its own merit, and is accruate, as there are many local COGIC churches in Detroit, and many of them practice exactly what I noted. I did not say YOUR church Pastor, I said your local church. You do know the difference between generalities and specifics do you not?

No one is ducking and dodging your questions, the so-called questions that you are TRYING to pose are more rants than anything else. I don't dislike hip hop music, I merely believe that it should remain in the secular arena and not in the church. Why? Because for one it is confessionally shallow, it is a FAD meaning that it is a manner of conduct, it is something that is followed enthusiastically by a group. It is a craze, a vogue, a furor; and a rage, nothing more and nothing less. There is nothing spiritually edifying about it.
Rants?? I simply asked a question, you have avoided it, by obfuscating and answering a question that was not asked, therefore the statement that you have ducked and dodged, is accurate. As far as it being a fad, the same was said for gospel music, and yet here we are some 78 years later and we have several awards even a grammy award that is awarded for it. The ministers who said that it would not be around after a while, are gone, and yet it is still here. Nothing spiritually edifying about it, I gave you an example of lyrics that portrayed our reliance on He who calls us, and you say that is not edifying? I have to ask the question my friend are you truly that blind? What about the young people who have been won at concerts and services where holy hip hop has been featured? Are you really saying that they are not saved and do not have a relationship with God?
A fad comes and goes, and I didn't say that this person or that person is saved or not saved. That's something that you are trying to put in my mouth, I have no authority to determine who has, and who does not have a relationship with God. Again, I am not talking about people, I'm dealing the music or so-called music.
No the questioning of their salvation is something that I am extrapolating from your writings and our discussions. Based on your writings hip hop has no redemptive traits hip hop in any form, including Holy Hip Hop. Based on that those who claim salvation based on Holy Hip Hop cannot possibly be saved because there is nothing redemptive in hip hop in any form. This is nothing that I have placed in your mouth, this is basically what you have said. I did not say that there was nothing redemptive about hip hop, YOU did


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