I now understand more and more about this so-call world of "Hip-Hop". I understand now why "Hip-Hop"has really no place in our churches and yet it's slowly creeping in our church doors. After hearing all of this, I will stand behind fellow clergy members by NOT allowing "Hip-Hop" into our churches.

Pastors,Ministers and Church Leaders, would you allow "Hip-Hop" in your churches? Is this a way in keeping our youth in church? I am interested in all feedback concerning this issue.

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Once again, another Biblically sound fundamental rebuttal. I perceive no animosity in your argument, only a forensic presentation and explication of the facts. Outstanding job, my Brother!
Yeah but if you had been here three hours ago.... I put him on total blast I had to delete and redo. I allowed my emotions to get the best of me. I have been a victim of spiritual abuse, and it was not pretty. I am serious I hope that Tarik gets some help of some kind. He could very well do harm to someone's spiritual life.
Read the original. It was strong but, hey, if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. You were gracious in your subsequent post, but in neither case was there need for an apology. Rev. Hodge should know that. He still hasn't presented clear, biblical evidence against the use of Holy Hip-Hop in praise and worship.

My grandfather used to say, "...a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." Your experience, and your ability to articulate it defuses Rev. Hodge's argument(s).

Stay blessed and stay strong, my Brother!
Bro. Anthony,

These are your words: "There are things that I see in the church that I felt, and feel are wrong. I am not going to take those beliefs on my part, my personal convictions if you will, something that is part of my spiritual DNA, and try to make it a doctrinal statement that is as wrong as two left shoes", Yes you are; you like Hip Hop, you never left alone and you never intend to leave it alone; so you are using your personal beliefs to influence another...you in affect are accusing me of doing the same thing that you are doing! now how should I say this without your feelings getting hurt?

How should I interprete them?

Again Your words: "If I want to listing to Holy Hip Hop, why do you percieve that it is your position to try to convict me of doing so"

How should I interprete this question?

"Ah but if I take said pig, butcher it, roast it on a spit, put an apple in its mouth, thems good eatins" Only if you eat pork...I don't!

Your words sir: "even your guy Lewis admitted that there is no issue with Holy Hip Hop. If you watched his video volume 5 I believe it is, even he capitulated that there is no issue with it" who is Lewis? and why should he matter to me? or my position? Please help me understand I should interprete this question?

all due respect Pastor; Sir you've not shown yourself to be respectful of me or anyone else that does not agree with you; so what does this statement mean?

This was your question:
Have I not the same Holy Spirit in me that you do in you? I don't even know you, how would I know what spirit you have in you...

This was my answer to your question:
"I certainly am not giving you regurgetated responses; if someone else happens to have read the same bible that I did and prayed to the same God I Did and received direction from the same Holy Ghost that I did then its no wonder we came to the same conclusion; you on the other hand...now what about that statement do you not agree with? presumably you pray, presumably you read the bible, presumably you listen to the Holy Ghost! ok you and I still came to opposite view points on the same subject??? do you not agree?

Again this is your question:
That being the case if He does not convict me of it, why do you feel justified in attempting to do His job?Again "your words" You are not capable of convicting me" yet you accused me of doing so...which one is it? You made and unfair, untrue accusation against me...and I denied it...please inform me of a non-offensive way to say that you are not telling the truth...

Please tell me when its my turn to get offended.

Again this is your question:
Do I not belong to Christ? How would I know...We thought Bro. Peirce was a Christian...he said he's not...so assuming anything would be a mistake....

Like you did with me on several occassions; like this one: (Your words)
but to take it and attempt to make something that effected you presalvation an eternal truth, that is wrong

I never said that this was a "Pre Salvation Issue" you assumed that...This was a post salvation issue, that's what I said.

again your assumption: "even your guy Lewis admitted" you assume that I have some relationship with a guy named lewis; you keep bringing him up to me as though I even know who he is...you accuse me of repeating what he says...Again please tell me who he is!

Bro. Day
"Once again, another Biblically sound fundamental rebuttal" Really?

This scripture was provided by Bro. Anthony:
"Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, telling them meat offered to idols is a non issue, provided that it does not cause a near brother to stumble. He said to not let your freedom become a stumbing block to someone else. But I also believe... So now he's on par with the Apostle Paul? and yet he even disagrees with Paul...(But) please help me understand how I should read this...

"If I want to listing to Holy Hip Hop..."Bro. Anthony, since when is this debate about you?

The Pig analogy:
My words "If you put lipstick and perfume on a pig, it is still a pig". (This is my "time tested fact!)

Your words:
these are your words: Ah but if I take said pig, butcher it, roast it on a spit, put an apple in its mouth, thems good eatins. (your relative opinion!)

"Your words"
Ok hoss back down from the belief that somehow you get to use such language" (Your opinion)

"My Words"
you want to use some nasty ungodly dead animal that died old age and drag it into Gods house and you think just because you fried it up an shoved an apple down its throat ...and you can feed whatever slop you want to God's people you want! (that seems to be wants selling now anyway

1. The pig is dead; meaning its no longer living, its not in use, it is not alive- fact, those rap and hip hop songs were dead on arrival and the ones that Kirk and others died years ago.

2. Pigs are nasty: Fact - meaning its not clean - it will eat anything and it stinks- fact - The very nature of Hip Hop is nasty, not clean, not holy.

3. Pigs are ungodly by nature - hence you should not toss your pearls before the swine...fact - Hip Hop, is an ungodly medium that has its own religion that is opposit God - Fact

4. Pigs way upto 500lbs unlless you have a crane or alot of guys you're really strong- you have to drag it - cause ya can't carry it- fact - Hip Hop is born of sin, uphold sin, loves sin, - Sin is a burden, its bondage the only way to carry it is by some etrenuouse means - Jesus said My burden is light and My yoke is easy - sin aint easy bro! Fact

5. If the pig is dead then rigo would have set in and you have to open its mouth and shove- place with force, push the apple into his mouth - (my opinion) more than likley a fact... Yes you can dress up sin to make it look attractive the devil does it all the time...that does not change the fact that it is sin...Hip Hop by any other name is the same spirit behind it - shoving, placing, presing "Holy" on the front of it does not make it holy- fact

If you had it your way- Holy Hip Hop would be played everywhere you think it should be played- and currently you are a proponant of it being in God's house - we don't agree with you!

my words "an feed whatever slop you want to God's people...

"I told you from the onset that I am not trying to make you see anything you are free to do whatever you want to do at your church"

So we both agree that we can do whatever we want at our Churches (respectivly) however what you call good eten; I call slop! that is a fact, if I too called it "good eten" would you take offense?

Which of these facts do you disagree with?

By the way thank you for not pretending to have any respect for me...see My Brother, if you did; I could never have (pushed) you to say what was never in you to say or in your words "Suffice it to say I allowed you to get to me". The real you, the inner man, the one without the mask of pleasentries, the one no one can see but God, the real you got angry. because someone dare to stand up to you and present and argument to which you have no defense.

See my Brother the root of Hip Hop is based on the spirit of anger, hatred, murder and strife, Cain Debated with Abel and Cain killed Abel; you allowed that same spirit to work in you; this issue is so personal that you perceive everyone that disagrees with you as an enemy. We are fellow workers in the vineyard, we have been given a set of tools and instructions to harvest the field of God...I get it...you want to use a "tool" that you found; and we; your blood brothers are saying; put that down and use the tools given to you by the one who hired you.

You really only have to answer too God! At the appointed time; all of us will turn in our tools, our bags will be emptied and you will get the chance to explain that (foriegn object) in your bag...now as for me I like the 1. helmet of salvation 2. the breast plate of rightousness, 3. Shoes of the Gospel of Peace 4. Loins girt of truth, 5. the shield of faith 6. the sword of the Spirit - i.e. the word of God.


Pastor Hodge
Very good points Pastor Hodge!
Thank you; to God be the Glory
Pastor Hodge ,well said!
Bro. Anthony,

These are your words: "There are things that I see in the church that I felt, and feel are wrong. I am not going to take those beliefs on my part, my personal convictions if you will, something that is part of my spiritual DNA, and try to make it a doctrinal statement that is as wrong as two left shoes",

Ok I am confused, you take this statement and attempt to make it a prejoritive one, and yet it shows the point that I was attempting to make that apparently was lost on you. That being the case, why would you try to use a statement you obviously did not understand.. But here let me explain oit to you like you are a five year old... i do have personal convictions. There are things that happen in the church that I do not necessarily agree with. Those feelings and those convictions are as much a part of me as my dreads are (oh lawd now you are going to tell me that I am going to hell because (gasp) I wear dreads..) Those feelings as personal as they are, cannot and should not become doctrilnal, or theological statements, For example, I wanted to pledge Alpha in school, the Lord told me no, For me to then say, that no one should pledge is wrong. God is not a cookie cutter God, one size does not fit all.


Yes you are; you like Hip Hop, you never left alone and you never intend to leave it alone; so you are using your personal beliefs to influence another...you in affect are accusing me of doing the same thing that you are doing! now how should I say this without your feelings getting hurt?

Well for one thing, just like that, see I took, and take my big boy pills every morning before I get out of bed, so people such as yourself do not do me harm, I do not allow insecurities to get the best of me..

How should I interprete them?

Again Your words: "If I want to listing to Holy Hip Hop, why do you percieve that it is your position to try to convict me of doing so"

How should I interprete this question?

LOL really seriously you want to know how to interpret the question, no worries. Simply put, why do you feel it is your place to bring what you would consider correction, when we are both doing the same thing? Let me ask it a different way, if you and I were at a cook off, nothing fancy not really competitive, why oh why would you come over to my station and attempt to either change or augment my recipie, when we have been given the same ingredients, same recipie, same task, why would you come to my station and attempt to point out flaws when we are accomplishing the same thing? Then complain when I am doing as good if not a better job at it because I add my own flair to it.

"Ah but if I take said pig, butcher it, roast it on a spit, put an apple in its mouth, thems good eatins" Only if you eat pork...I don't!

Look bruh, you brought the pig into it ok… Let it go for real….

Your words sir: "even your guy Lewis admitted that there is no issue with Holy Hip Hop. If you watched his video volume 5 I believe it is, even he capitulated that there is no issue with it" who is Lewis? and why should he matter to me? or my position? Please help me understand I should interprete this question?


Ok first of all I find it hard to believe that you being a minister in the greater Detroit area, in the neighborhood you minister in, have not heard of G. Craige Lewis. Secondly those who have heard of him tend to be a bit fanatical in his defense even though he is as wrong as two left shoes doctrinally and theologically. They also tend to regurgitate what he says almost adnauseum.


all due respect Pastor; Sir you've not shown yourself to be respectful of me or anyone else that does not agree with you; so what does this statement mean?

You are not two years old, and I am not going to treat you as though you are if you do not understand then perhaps you need to go back and read some of your less than stellar comments. I am willing to cut you some slack as you have been in the pastorate for less than two years, however even in a disagreement there is room for civility.

This was your question:
Have I not the same Holy Spirit in me that you do in you? I don't even know you, how would I know what spirit you have in you...

This was my answer to your question:
"I certainly am not giving you regurgetated responses; if someone else happens to have read the same bible that I did and prayed to the same God I Did and received direction from the same Holy Ghost that I did then its no wonder we came to the same conclusion; you on the other hand...

Let’s be clear here Tarik you are not ignorant, and I would appreciate it if you did not attempt to insult my intelligence. The way you left the statement hanging is not slick and its not cute. The prepositional phrase “on the other hand” denotes a change to the opposite view in short the inferred meaning is that you and Lewis hear from God, and I do not. Bad form.

now what about that statement do you not agree with? presumably you pray, presumably you read the bible, presumably you listen to the Holy Ghost! ok you and I still came to opposite view points on the same subject??? do you not agree?

If you had added this statement to the aforementioned statement there would not have been a controversy, you did not, and only added it after I called you to the carpet on it, and rubbed your nose in it. In short you are being a coward and only adding this statement to appear gracious, when in truth there was no grace in your tired little diatribe last night

Again this is your question:
That being the case if He does not convict me of it, why do you feel justified in attempting to do His job?Again "your words" You are not capable of convicting me" yet you accused me of doing so...which one is it? You made and unfair, untrue accusation against me...and I denied it...please inform me of a non-offensive way to say that you are not telling the truth...

Actually Tarik you are not telling the truth, and I don’t know if its because you are not really reading what I wrote, or only seeing what you want to see. In order to say that YOU are convicting me, I would had to have omitted the word ATTEMPTED. Making the statement that “you are not capable of doing so affirms the belief that you are attempting.

Please tell me when its my turn to get offended.

Again this is your question:
Do I not belong to Christ? How would I know...We thought Bro. Peirce was a Christian...he said he's not...so assuming anything would be a mistake....

Uh nope not mine, I think the threads of the post are running together, I never brought up brother Pierce, and I certainly would not have, if I did, brought it up to you as he was dealing with Brother Spencer…..


Like you did with me on several occassions; like this one: (Your words)
but to take it and attempt to make something that effected you presalvation an eternal truth, that is wrong

Uh once again YOU brought it up, YOU made it part of the conversation. So please do not lay what you dragged into the conversation at my feet.

I never said that this was a "Pre Salvation Issue" you assumed that...This was a post salvation issue, that's what I said.

again your assumption: "even your guy Lewis admitted" you assume that I have some relationship with a guy named lewis; you keep bringing him up to me as though I even know who he is...you accuse me of repeating what he says...Again please tell me who he is!
Tarik I already answered this question three paragraphs ago.

Bro. Day
"Once again, another Biblically sound fundamental rebuttal" Really?

I thought you were talking to me, my name is or rather my last name is Anthony…

This scripture was provided by Bro. Anthony:
"Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, telling them meat offered to idols is a non issue, provided that it does not cause a near brother to stumble. He said to not let your freedom become a stumbing block to someone else. But I also believe... So now he's on par with the Apostle Paul? and yet he even disagrees with Paul...(But) please help me understand how I should read this...


Yanno, sometimes I wonder why is it that ministers, or rather some ministers like to insult the intelligence of those around them.
1. You did not post EVERYTHING that I said so there is no context
2. By not posting the entire comment you allude the fact that your argument might be weak in that posting the entire point may undermine what you are attempting to say. In short you would rather tell half the story in posting only part of the statement, Uh bruh where I come from that's call a LIE...




"If I want to listing to Holy Hip Hop..."Bro. Anthony, since when is this debate about you?

Once again not posting the entire comment and therefore no context insulting the intelligence of those who may read this because if I were to come back and post the entire argument anyone with reasonable intelligence would know
1. This argument has never been about me
2. You are attempting to make this personal


The Pig analogy:
My words "If you put lipstick and perfume on a pig, it is still a pig". (This is my "time tested fact!)
Notice I did not call it anything else when I answered you. I still called it a pig. I merely took what you put out there and turned it on its ear.

Your words:
these are your words: Ah but if I take said pig, butcher it, roast it on a spit, put an apple in its mouth, thems good eatins. (your relative opinion!)

Actually most people enjoy roast pig, the meat pulls right off, its really tender when done right, and if you roast it Cuban style it is amazing.

"Your words"
Ok hoss back down from the belief that somehow you get to use such language" (Your opinion)


Nope I am not your child, nor am I in any kind of convenant relationship with you that gives you carte blanche to speak to me in that way, so please do not make that mistake again. The fact that you feel that you can speak to me or anyone else that is not related to you in some way is further proof that you need help to define your position, help in not abusing your role



"My Words"
you want to use some nasty ungodly dead animal that died old age and drag it into Gods house and you think just because you fried it up an shoved an apple down its throat ...and you can feed whatever slop you want to God's people you want! (that seems to be wants selling now anyway

1. The pig is dead; meaning its no longer living, its not in use, it is not alive- fact, those rap and hip hop songs were dead on arrival and the ones that Kirk and others died years ago.

2. Pigs are nasty: Fact - meaning its not clean - it will eat anything and it stinks- fact - The very nature of Hip Hop is nasty, not clean, not holy.

And here we go again, You have been asked to prove this about Holy Hip Hop, and you cannot. I even told you that if you could even tell me about the lives of those that write and produce the music I would even accept that, instead you foolishly attempted to paint the whole thing with a broad brush. Tell me Tarik, is it true that the ENTIRE city of Detroit is bullet riddled ghost town where the crime rate is just ridiculous? Keep in mind bruh I used to live down the road from it. If you say no, then the broad brush must be put away in favor of wisdom which would say look at things one facet at a time.

3. Pigs are ungodly by nature - hence you should not toss your pearls before the swine...fact - Hip Hop, is an ungodly medium that has its own religion that is opposit God – Fact

Ok seriously Tarik, please tell me an animal that Is godly, godly is define as the following:
1. Having great reverence for God; pious.
2. Divine.
Seriously you consider a pig, a dumb animal, ungodly, I cannot wait for you to tell me what animal is.. It sounds to me Tarik that while you accuse me and others about not having let go of part of our lives since being saved, that apparently you have mixed in some muslim doctrine with your own personal doctrine, ROTFL a pig….ungodly WOW
Nope opinion If one man said something about Christianity that was off, would it be correct to label the whole of Christianity by that one statement?


4. Pigs way upto 500lbs unlless you have a crane or alot of guys you're really strong- you have to drag it - cause ya can't carry it- fact - Hip Hop is born of sin, uphold sin, loves sin, - Sin is a burden, its bondage the only way to carry it is by some etrenuouse means - Jesus said My burden is light and My yoke is easy - sin aint easy bro! Fact

Ok that statement made absolutely no sense and I read it twice, “sin aint easy"?? Seriously??


5. If the pig is dead then rigo would have set in and you have to open its mouth and shove- place with force, push the apple into his mouth - (my opinion) more than likley a fact... Yes you can dress up sin to make it look attractive the devil does it all the time...that does not change the fact that it is sin...Hip Hop by any other name is the same spirit behind it - shoving, placing, presing "Holy" on the front of it does not make it holy- fact


Tarik seriously invest in spell check or at the very least type what you post in word or wordperfect first and spell check them, it does not speak well of you if you have constant spelling errors that someone of your station should not have.Tarik you WERE a muslim, dead in sin, stinkin nasty offensive, and yet Jesus cleaned you up did He not. Raised you up did He not? Dressed you in His best did He not? If He did all this for you… Why is it so hard for you to believe that He CANNOT do it for Hip Hop? Are you really cogent as to what redemption is? I think based on your statement that you have no real idea what redemption is. I really believe that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever. You were born in sin, you were shaped in iniquity, and yet here you are a man of God… What Jesus do you serve that is so impotent that He cannot make a silk purse from a sow’s ear?? You and some of your peers do not have a clear picture of what redemption is. You say that Hip Hop is evil because of the beat, when the scripture does not bear that out. The Bible speaks more of words and their effect, in fact the word words appears some 548 times in 523 verses in the KJV. Of that many of them deal with the words that you and I speak. There is nothing, absolutely nothing about the beat of a song or a musical beat being evil… Here is the other thing. Last time I checked the Holy Spirit does not speak of things that cannot be confirmed by the word of God, He will not speak of things that either cannot be confirmed by the word, or have no spiritual precedent, which once again points back to the one place where spiritual precedent can be found namely the Word of God. To spread fear by claiming that something is demonic, is foolish, and frankly goes totally against what the Word of God says we should be about, if we are to “fear not” why would you as a man of God, attempt to spread fear… Could it be an issue of CONTROL?? Which once again points to future abuse that you could commit. Am I saying that you will, please note I used he word could, which means it could go either way, the choice as always is yours.


If you had it your way- Holy Hip Hop would be played everywhere you think it should be played- and currently you are a proponant of it being in God's house - we don't agree with you!

No worries, I do not expect you to agree with me. And in terms of it being played everywhere, I think not. My musical tastes are eclectic. I do however listen to more classical and jazz, there is gospel of course, and when my wife and I want to be alone, we certainly are not going to be singing dr watts. And truth be told I am willing to wager neither are you…I actually have very little hip hop on my ipod.


my words "an feed whatever slop you want to God's people...

"I told you from the onset that I am not trying to make you see anything you are free to do whatever you want to do at your church"

So we both agree that we can do whatever we want at our Churches (respectivly) however what you call good eten; I call slop! that is a fact, if I too called it "good eten" would you take offense?


Which of these facts do you disagree with?

Where you say “that is a fact” directly proves my point about your attempts at conviction.

By the way thank you for not pretending to have any respect for me...see My Brother, if you did; I could never have (pushed) you to say what was never in you to say or in your words "Suffice it to say I allowed you to get to me". The real you, the inner man, the one without the mask of pleasentries, the one no one can see but God, the real you got angry. because someone dare to stand up to you and present and argument to which you have no defense
.
Here is where you show that you are very capable of spiritual abuse. You bring up an argument, you state your case poorly, and then you question my salvation, then you feel that I have no right to become upset with you, and then you have the august nerve to say its my own fault. Talk about a man who does not want to take responsibility for his own action… You are without defense, you do not have an argument that is really that strong. But I do wonder one thing, how Is it that you can serve under Superintendent Sheard, and yet have the feelings that you do? You have an issue obviously with his wife’s music, and his daughter’s music, and yet you serve under him. See if you were a man of any real conviction, you would live them out, and distance yourself from him and them. But I bet when he comes to your church if he does, or when you go to his church, which I am certain that you do. You have no issue taking his hand, giving him a hug. If you do, and take issue with the way his family deals with music, your hand shaking, hugging, service under him as a subordinate is not genuine in the truest sense.

See my Brother the root of Hip Hop is based on the spirit of anger, hatred, murder and strife, Cain Debated with Abel and Cain killed Abel;

Ok are you really thinking about what you are writing, Cain did not debate Abel, do you really think I am that stupid, gee man tell the truth, Cain murdered Abel for the exact reason scripture says he did. He was ticked that his sacrifice was not accepted. He may have spoken to his brother, but we do not know what he spoke to him about. Even the Hebrew does not bear out your attempt at that lie…
you allowed that same spirit to work in you; this issue is so personal that you perceive everyone that disagrees with you as an enemy.
I do not perceive you as an enemy, you are not capable of being an enemy.. In order for you to be an enemy I would have to see you as a possible threat. You are far from being a threat and not at all in a position to threaten me.


We are fellow workers in the vineyard, we have been given a set of tools and instructions to harvest the field of God...I get it...you want to use a "tool" that you found; and we; your blood brothers are saying; put that down and use the tools given to you by the one who hired you.

1. How do you know what tools He gives out
2. Tools vary you may have a hand saw, I may have a buzz saw, they both accomplish the same thing
3. YOU have not acted like a brother for the past two days


You really only have to answer too God! At the appointed time; all of us will turn in our tools, our bags will be emptied and you will get the chance to explain that (foriegn object) in your bag...now as for me I like the 1. helmet of salvation 2. the breast plate of rightousness, 3. Shoes of the Gospel of Peace 4. Loins girt of truth, 5. the shield of faith 6. the sword of the Spirit - i.e. the word of God.

I like them too only yours may not be elaborate as brother Day’s, mine may not be as elaborate as yours. Brother Spencer’s may have gold inlay, while another one may have some silver in it. Are you aware that there were typically two forms of armor worn by the Roman soldier, and each one had a function. I cannot complain of your tools, and I have not been , what I take issue with is that you appear to believe that you have a right to tell me to put this down otherwise I am not doing it right. Even in this conversation it shows. Like I said before get some help before you do some damage to some poor soul.
this has become the new wave for youth mininstry in our churches but i don't agree with it for the revelation i recieved on the matter that it is a tool of deception; the enemy's scheme is to entertain but his motive is to enter into reign through Hip-Hop. It is good to be able to recognize our enemy (satin) and get closer to our friend (Jesus)
Agreed, Pastor Hirsch.
what is the revelation that you have received pastor. I am curious if you can articulate it. In terms if it being a tool of deception, how is that? Can you go into detail? In terms of entertainment while I concede that there is that facet, but the same can be said about television, and yet I do not see pastors and ministries fleeing from it or radio in droves, the same can be said for the internet, in all seriousness people play games out here, people date out here as well. the internet is an entertaining place, however you are here. I'm just saying... I am not here to convince you of anything, but I fear that ministers and pastors sometimes well not sometimes have their own personal preferences about things and what happens most times is that they will build a doctrinal statement around it. People are human does it insult you that I call you human, I pray not. after all you are. But I digress. please share.
This is real talk

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