I now understand more and more about this so-call world of "Hip-Hop". I understand now why "Hip-Hop"has really no place in our churches and yet it's slowly creeping in our church doors. After hearing all of this, I will stand behind fellow clergy members by NOT allowing "Hip-Hop" into our churches.

Pastors,Ministers and Church Leaders, would you allow "Hip-Hop" in your churches? Is this a way in keeping our youth in church? I am interested in all feedback concerning this issue.

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Rev. Miller,
Additionally, I don't have an issue with either yourself or Brother Hodge having a disagreement with me. What I do have a bone of contention with are the attacks of Brother Hodge in lieu of empirical evidence. It's one thing if you have empirical evidence supporting your position but another thing entirely to rely on opinion and anecdote.

If Brother Hodge does not like Holy Hip-Hop or R&B Gospel that's his (or your) choice. But to dismiss it out of hand without the benefit of assessing its effectiveness for the Kingdom is spiritual bigotry at its worst. And bigotry is a stronghold -- a bondage.

Would you not agree?
The argument between yourself, Brother Anthony; and Brother Hodge has become very, very personal, which is something that I have been trying to avoid. However, I disagree with you that Brother Hodge is a so-called "spiritual bigot", if a pastor does not include hip hop music in his order of service that is HIS decision, he is not placing his congregation in "bondage" this is merely yours and Brother Anthony's opinion. I know of many churches with young and older members that would protest and probably seek membership elsewhere should their pastor attempt to include hip hop music in the church they pastor, you and Brother Anthony cannot get away from a results-oriented mentality,which is again pragmatism. I believe that you're saying (correct me if I am wrong) that if it (hip hop) works than it must be something good and has been ordained by God Himself - because it works and because it works we have to include it, because it will increase our numbers and WE have to make our church membership become as large as we can get it! But this frame of thought is not biblical to say the least. My brothers I am begging and pleading with you to not let the devil deceive you. What we are discussing today, is not the matter of a generation gap, nor is it a matter of personal taste! We are dealing with whether you like it or not, a warped Gospel of worldly music, we are dealing with Satan's sinister seduction and his attempt to erode the Solid Rock on which we stand.
Rev. Miller,
Your response is thoughtful. However, while I think the discussion has been passionate and spirited I don't think it is personal.

You miss my premise -- you don't have to like it and you certainly don't have to include it in the church over which you preside. What I am saying, and let me make this perfectly clear, if it is working, don't knock it. Jesus, Himself, said in Luke 9:50 said, "...Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

People are leaving the church in droves, not because of the preaching but because of the bondage and hypocrisy. My question to the group is, and will continue to be, "After music, what is the next stronghold?"

Furthermore, you and I are in complete agreement, music in the church should not have entertainment as its primary focus. The purpose should be the drawing of the lost to the cross and the equipping and edifying of the saints.

You will neither catch tuna with trout bait nor will you win 21st century souls with 19th centruy methods.The church definitely should not conform to the world but should adapt that it may speak to said souls at the level of their understanding.

I praise God for you!
Brothers Anthony and Day,

I don't have a problem with you calling me names...so that you know; I am the oldest sone of a (Former) Muslim Minister (who by the way was captain of his debate team, and a school teacher). I got saved at the age of 13. The day I got saved, I had to go home and tell my father that I was no longer a muslim. The penalty for that statement for any muslim over the age of 12 is death...26 years later my late father got saved himself in the Church that I was the Sunday School Teacher and he joined the Church until is death.

The Simplistic, time tested preaching and teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ works.

You can't think of a name that my father did not already call me and you have not lived long enough to insult me the way my father did...If you have never considered eating out of a garbage can because you had no place to go and nothing to eat; than you have no idea of where I've been.

For the Gospel I am extremley passionate (I welcome good honest raw passion) and very petient - you see, eventually my father got saved, my brothers (except one) got saved, my sister got saved, my cousins got saved, my uncles got saved...So my brothers, time reveals the truth of all arguments and petients yeilds its own rewards.

My concern is that you say that I lack imperical evidence in my arguments -I say to you my dear brothers I am the imperical evidence of my argument - the Blood of Jesus preached pure and simple works best when it is not defiled by the world! it is a known fact that [Hip Hop] is of the world. .

You say that I don't answer your questions - yet I possed several simple questions that you have yet to answer- You say that my Greek is weak; I say that my testimoney is stronger! The word of God preached pure and simple works - no it may not fill the pews over night - As Pastors we have to keep one thing in mind - The same people that are leaving the Church today-guess what; They left Jesus too.


Pastor Hodge
Brother Hodge, if you go back a few pages, I posted some answers for you. with regard to your former statement however, equating yourself with Christ in terms of the rationale behind why people leave is not healthy. People left Christ because of the message. People leave pastors because of two reasons, either there is mess going on in the church eg, abuse, sexual indescretion, and the like, It honestly is rare that people will leave due to the message because we live in a country that has a psuedo state religion, and everyone wants to be associated with it in some form. We also live with a lazy populous people do not want to do anything for themeselves so they often will not fact check the preacher. Sad truth, preachers are not infallable, we sometimes like to play that game, but we are far from being infallable. As such it behooves us to be cogent of EVERY tool that is available. No one including Bro Day or anyone else that has commented on the affirmative side has said that Holy Hip Hop is to be the main staple. What we have said is that we should be educated enough to recognize when God is using people to reach others using a tool. Now Rev. Miller, I answered the issue of pragmatism before in an earlier post this week. It can be argued that the differences between the law of the old testement and the grace found in the new are pragmatic in scope, application, and results. There were no results under the law, not because of what God did, but rather that man could not see that the purpose of the law was to drive him to God to see that he (man) needed a Savior. That being the case God Himself comes down, reconciles the world to himself by giving Himself up for the world. Man recognizes his Savior, relationship restored. The first attempt failed not because of God, but because of us, second try succeeds because we finally see God for who He is.
Ok Brother Hodge, here are your questions with my answers in bold.

1. can you tell me how Hip Hop separates us FROM the world? I think you said it does not.

Ok SECULAR hip hop does not, however when you look at the lyrics of Holy Hip Hop there is a distinct difference. If I play a song by say Snoop, he is going to be talking about either drugs, or mysogeny, or crime. If I play a song by Shundi, or Out of Eden, (although OOE is not really hip hop as much as they are gospel r&b) they are going to be speaking about serving the Lord, they are going to be singing songs of encouragement, songs that tell of their love of the Lord, sharing music about the goodness of the Lord. How is it that you cannot see that speaking about such things does indeed separate them from the Lord, when was the last time you heard Snoop rap about the Lord? When was the last time you saw Snoop give an alter call at a concert? In a word, you won’t, why because to Snoop based solely on his lifestyle, he doesn’t live a life that one could say pleases the Lord. The artists I mentioned, I know of personally, grew up with, I know their lives because I have watched them I know how they love God, I have spent time with them and seen them at their best, and worst, and in every case not once did they give up on God. Not once did they fail to give Him glory for what He has used them to do and become. How does it separate us from the world, because the message that Holy Hip Hop brings is one of life in Jesus Christ, that’s why. If you have not listened, you are not really qualified to speak on it. Proverbs says “He who answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is shame and a folly unto him. Another version puts it this way: a man who speaks before he listens is a fool.

2. can you tell me what is spiritual about the Rapp Music?
See above

3. Are you sayiing that I am holding the Church in bondage because I don't agree with you?

I think what he is saying is a general truth a man who is continually prone to tradition, and is so rigid that he cannot see the possibility of God moving in a thing is prone to hold a church in bondage. If it does not apply, as the old folx used to say, “let it roll off your back”. If it does apply simply say “ouch”.


4. Man successfully built religion?

Oh come on Tarik, you mean to tell me you are really questioning that. Islam, the Greek Pantheon, Jewish Orthodoxy, NOI, Jehovah’s Witnesses, CJCLDS, all are religions. And all every single one of them were started by men,,,,, All are steeped in religious ceremony.. We are different as we are supposed to be not involved in religious ceremony, but rather in relationship with God. Even God says He hates religion:
"...every abominable act which the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods." (Deuteronomy 12:31)
"I have had enough of burnt offerings...Bring your worthless offerings no longer...I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts; they have become a burden to Me... So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you... I will not listen..." (Isaiah 1:10-15)
"I hate, I reject your festivals; nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies...take away from Me the noise of your songs; I will not even listen to the sound of your harps." (Amos 5:21-24)
It is a fair assessment that every religion that I have mentioned was started BY A MAN. Have you ever considered the etymology of the word religion, it is derived from the latin religo which means to bind up. In this case religion binds people in senseless ceremony, traditions, and the like, when a church follows tradition as opposed to having a vibrant RELATIONSHIP with Christ, the name Ichabod might as well be written above the door. I Sam 4:20-22. During His time here, who was Christ most critical of without question, was it not the religious establishment, and why is this? First
1. They were wrapped up in ceremony, and not after the heart.
2. Even He said that He disapproved of the way that they used religion to bind the people, (Mt 23)

Having all this evidence can you say that Jesus actually supports religion? Can you say that Christianity is a religion. Is that what you have, a religion? If that is what you have, you do yourself, and the God you serve a disservice. He wants relationship. Why else would He say in Hebrews 10:1-18 , speaking about the ending of ceremony, the destruction of religion in order to bring about a new covenant, one that would involve a relationship, a close relationship. We as gentiles are adopted children, as Saints we are adopted children. This statement in borne out in Romans where Paul says that we as gentiles were “grafted in” . in middle eastern culture, there is no disownment of adopted children. Having said all this, you should by now see that Not only does God hate religion, that Christ came to destroy religion, that we should not be about religion.


Are you saying that only false Christ would dis-agree with you? are you saying that we are anti Christ because we won't play rapp music? what are you saying?

I do not believe that Brother Day is that black and white. Here is what I believe the meaning is. If one is for religion, one would be for something that God hates, if someone is for something that He is against then the logic would be he or she would be anti God, and in a very real sense, anti Christ.


6. Are you saying that Rapp Music is the word of God and all else is the tradition of men?..." which is which? are you


7. saying its the rap music that is the tradition of men? or are you saying that rapp music is from the Word of God?

Ok on its face that question is a bit juvenile, however If we are talking about Holy Hip Hop and it is scripturally correct, and theologically on point with its message, and if its message is one that directly quotes the scriptures, and knowing that God honors His word even above His name, we know that it shall not return void. Now I know that the image of the enemy quoting scripture comes to mind, keep in mind,
1. The quotation of those scriptures was done in a tempting way, and often times misquoted in order to goad Jesus into some kind of selfish action
2. The quotes were also designed to question Him as to his identity, if you notice how that even throughout scripture the devil is basically asking two questions, 1 Did God really say that? And 2. Who are you supposed to really be, are you really who God says you are?
That being the case and being the enemy’s SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) whenever scripture is used in its correct biblical setting to edify, to build up, and to encourage, can it then honestly be said to be demonically influenced, knowing these two facts? The answer of course is no.

8. Where did it imply that Jesus came to destroy religion?

I have already shared this scripture, but here it is again Hebrews 10:1-18 (Amplified vesion: 1FOR SINCE the Law has merely a rude outline (foreshadowing) of the good things to come--instead of fully expressing those things--it can never by offering the same sacrifices continually year after year make perfect those who approach [its altars].

2For if it were otherwise, would [these sacrifices] not have stopped being offered? Since the worshipers had [a]once for all been cleansed, they would no longer have any guilt or consciousness of sin.

3But [as it is] these sacrifices annually bring a fresh remembrance of sins [to be atoned for],

4Because the blood of bulls and goats is powerless to take sins away.

5Hence, when He [Christ] entered into the world, He said, Sacrifices and offerings You have not desired, but instead You have made ready a body for Me [to offer];

6In burnt offerings and sin offerings You have taken no delight.

7Then I said, Behold, here I am, coming to do Your will, O God--[to fulfill] what is written of Me in the volume of the Book.(A)

8When He said just before, You have neither desired, nor have You taken delight in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings--all of which are offered according to the Law--

9He then went on to say, Behold, [here] I am, coming to do Your will. Thus He does away with and annuls the first (former) order [as a means of expiating sin] so that He might inaugurate and establish the second (latter) order.(B)

10And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One)., all through these verses Paul (or whoever authored Hebrews) speaks of how God no longer wanted sacrifices, the religion served no purpose as God’s intent was to change the heart of man.


9. Are we not to test and determine which music we attach to our ministries?

Of course but you have been painting with a very broad brush. You have lumped Holy Hip Hop with secular hip hop, since when is it appropriate to put the secular with the sacred. How is it sacred you ask, once again as I pointed out in the paragraph above if it fulfills the standard set by Paul in Phillipians 4:8, how do you determine this if the music encourages, if it edifys, if it glorifies, then stands to reason, that it fulfills Phil 4:8. If you want to bring up the argument about the beat, show me in the Bible as it is supposed to be the guide book where the words that we speak are not given more weight, have you not read where Jesus Himself said that we wil be judged by every idle word we speak, not by every beat we play. Calling something demonic does two things,
1. It raises fear and in most cases heightens the attention people pay to the enemy.
2. There is nowhere in scripture where we are even told that we are to pay attention to him
3. No we are not to be ignorant, but there is a difference between having a healthy respect for one’s enemy, and being obsessive. In this case a healthy respect is knowing he exists, knowing his tactics, but not being overly concerned about what he does. Keep in mind that there is nowhere in the Bible that says that the Holy Spirit will speak of anything other than what Is in the Bible. Even Jesus said that He will speak of the things he hears What does the Spirit hear? He hears the word of God, what is the word of God, the Bible. We are told to try the spirits, by the Spirit. What will they speak of if they are of God, John was clear, that Jesus was come in the flesh. Here’s the thing, if there is no biblical basis for what is being said, can it be trusted. Can what a spirit saying be backed up by the word, if not, it should be discarded. This theory that the beat is demonic, or evil, silly superstition. There is no biblical basis for it.That being the case, why preach it. If there is no biblical basis for it, how then is it of God, simply put IT IS NOT.



10. How does promoting Rapp Music help to ease Jesus disapointment?

As I stated before, If we are so caught up in tradition that we miss a new thing that the Lord is doing, a new tool that He is using, and please do not say that He does not use new tools; TV, the printed page, radio, the piano, the guitar and other instruments did not exist in the first century. And they were all fought against by the church in the late 19th early 20th centuries.

11. How does promoting and listening to Rapp Music in the Church get fornication, adultry, lying, back bighting, homosexualism, witchcraft, and devil worship out of the Church?

I am going to answer your question with a question, How did the Canton Spirituals or the Fisk Jubilee Chior get it out? Tarik you know better than to ask a question like that, if you are any type of pastor you know that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to do that, it is Him working through music, or the preaching of the word to convict and to move people through the process of Sanctification. You know good and well that sometimes for some people it’s the hearing of a song, or the preaching of a message that moves them to the alter to get things right.

12. How has Rapp Music removed the above issues from the Church you Pastor?

Well for one thing I do not pastor, my father did, my brother does, my uncles do, my cousins do as well. I have been in some form of ministry since I was four I have seen how in their youth ministries it has taught them (the youth) how to memorize scripture. Some of the scripture memorized using Holy Hip Hop tells them who they are, and whose they are. And in relation to the above issues , my answer is the same it is not the in the job description of the pastor to remove those things from his or her church, he or she must work in concert with the Holy Spirit to do it. If he or she feels that they can use the trappings of tradition and religion to do it, it will fall flat on its face. The Kingdom of God is not about rules regulations, tradition, ceremony and the like. God is about changing hearts from the inside out, changing behavior from the inside out. Haven’t you figured that out yet. If the Jews could not live the law, and the law’s sole purpose was to show the need for a Savior, having a bunch of religious rules is nothing more than a revamped version of the Jewish law, it did not work for them, and it will not work for us, why because it attempts to do things without the leading, and behavior changing power that only comes from God when one has a surrendered life to him. And that my brother is a daily thing, its not a one time deal that you pull at the alter once, you have to have an attitude of surrender, daily.


I am not as educated as some of you are, nor am I as learned as you?

You aren’t?

In my world its either worng or right; if I am wrong I want to be right...so please since your are humoring my obviouse ignorance conserinig these great matters; answer the above question so that I can get right! make them plain for me! I want to lead Gods people right, so help me how in the world does the theme song to wickedness get me closer to rightouseness?

Huh? You really should proof what you are going to send, before you send it, In the meantime, I think I understand the statement you are trying to say, and I answered that in the paragraphs I wrote. I hope you read them well, if not go back and read them again.


By the way; I like music; its the nasty, distorted ungodly garbage that's used to introduce its lyrical cousins that I object too and I have a LOT of trouble understanding how that position makes me or those with the same position a "False Christ"...Please explain.

Asked and answered move forward please. Or go back up and read the answer to your number 5 question.
Brother Anthony,

I did not know that you were not Pastors...why did you not make this clear early on? This is seriouse...The question was put to Pastors, Ministers and Church Leaders...You responded as though you two were Pastors...

This entire conversation is out of line..Since I am a Pastor; I am the more out of line...As God is my witness I do repent! (of have the conversation) I am not your Pastor, you are under a Pastor...for a host of reasons; I can not continue this conversation with you.

You really should have made your identity known...early on...I thank you for the time that you took to respond to the questions that I possed to Bro. Day.

Please forgive me for maintaining this conversation with you? Have a nice day.


Pastor Hodge
Blessings to you as well brother.
OK first off Tarik you are sounding like a snob, You and I are brothers FIRST your position means nothing in heaven, Secondly this forum is not just for pastors. If you READ the initial question it was put to pastors, ministers, and church leaders. Yes I serve under a pastor however I am not bound to him, I am not his slave, and am free to respond to whatever conversation I wish, Wow dude if ever there was proof that you are under bondage, your response all but proves it. Religious protocol rules your house and home, and apparently your church.
Brother Hodge,
You have confirmed the control of the spirit of religion in you. As a pastor (and, oh, by the way, I am a pastor and the founder of a church planting ministry) you need to be led by the Holy spirit to the degree that you can receive counsel from ANYONE. If God will use a donkey to make a point, surely he can use one of your members or a layperson from another congregation.

As for Brother Anthony's answering your questions, he did that of his own volition. Nevertheless, as I stated before, I trust the working of the Holy Spirit in him, so I do not have a problem with him speaking on my behalf. Furthermore, in his concise reply, he has made points for which you have no spiritual or logical rebuttal.

I thought I made it CRYSTAL CLEAR in previous posts that I would not answer your questions until you provided a list of acceptable songs that may be sung during praise and worship. I am fully qualified and capable of answering ANY questions you pose. Since you have failed to respond to my inquiry, I have NO OBLIGATION to answer yours.

My prayers are with you my Brother. I love you and God Bless You!
Wow, it seems that no matter what I say you guys take it out of context?

For the record really I meant no offense to Bro. Anthony, God respects order, God established order...there are certain disciplines that go with the job of Pastor...if I am having a discussion with a "lay person" I will utilize a different demeanor than if I am talking to someone that is actually on the job..

I am careful of that; not because I am looking down on him...he is under a Pastor and thus receiving teaching an instruction regarding an issue that I might think differently on...thus the opportunity for confusion occurs.

I am deeply regretful for engaging him the way I did; because he;

1. is not in the position exact a change in his Church regardless of him agreeing with me or not.
2. He maybe receiving a completly different view from his Pastor and I don't want to be a party to confusion in another mans house.
3. As Pastors you and I may disagree and fight and beat each other all day long (behind closed doors) and at the end of the day we have each others back because we are on the same team and we know what the other is going through...If you had an issue that came up in your Church, even if I could only help you a little bit; I would be there to help! That is what brothers do!
4. It would not be fare for me to address a lay person in the same matter as I would another Pastor! The roles are different the responsibilities are different.

5. Abuse of power and authority yields bondage. Bondage comes about when there is a conviction of a condition with no ability to change or effect the overcoming of the condition; Again he can't change what his Pastor is teaching him or allowing at his Church therefore me teaching him differently could put him in bondage to the condition.

6. As a Pastor and him having a Pastor puts our conversing to the greater extent out of order...had I known that he was not a Pastor I would have simply thanked him for sharing his opinion and directed him to see his Pastor about any questions or clarification that he needed; that's out of respect for his Pastor! I am therefore truly truly sorry for my conduct towards him, and I hope in time he forgives me.

You on the other hand is a completly different scenario! Since you said that you are a Pastor and I am taking you at your word...I have no problem engaging you 100% only I don't wear gloves!

Since you said that you stand behind everything that Brother Anthony said in his last post...cool lets talk!

Brother Anthony's said in his own words "since when is it appropriate to put the secular with the sacred?"

To that I say this: I agree him 100%!

As far is a list of songs...You can sing whatever you like at your church; you have to answer to God...not me! Again the bases for this conversation is simple: Should we (the Church at large) allow fusing together of secular music with sacred words to form "Holy Hip Hop?"

I like Bro Anthony's answer:

since when is it appropriate to put the secular with the sacred?

Since you said you agree with EVERYTHING he said and HE SPEAKS FOR YOU; great all three of us agree! It is not appropiate to put the secular with the sacred!

How good and pleasent it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 33:1

Peace be unto you my Brother!

Pastor Hodge
talk about taking things out of context, Tarik you know good and well what I meant. The issue here is not that you are a pastor and I am not, the real issue here is that I have given you a reply to which you cannot offer a defense, rebuttal or response. You have been checkmated and the only thing you can do it attempt to fall back on religious protocol

I find it offensive that you have done this. I wonder if you have even noticed the authority with which I speak? Could it be that the mantle of a pastor rests even though it may not yet be manifested yet. Even Paul spent time in study before he ventured out. As I stated before I have led the people in some for or another since I was four. You wish to take my statement about secular hip hop and Holy Hip Hop out of context you go right ahead, however do note, that if that is the best argument you got out of that entire posting, you do not really have much of an argument...

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