Think about this, if the holy Spirit IS God and IS the Son then please explain the following;

Luke.12
[10] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

If they are ONE, how can you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and not the Father or Son?

Mark.13
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

If they are ONE, how can the Father know the time and the hour, but NOT the Holy Spirit or the Son?

John.5
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

If they are ONE, how can the Son judge WITHOUT the Father and the Holy Ghost?

Does not make sense!

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Amen Brother. Can you give a little more insight?
Let's study the following scripture and let the bible, not a man made doctrine, explain it;

1John.5
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Just how are they all one? Let's read how Jesus Christ explains it to us;

John.17
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

We see from reading above Jesus (God) SHARING the Glory with the Father (God), even before the world. No mention of any other God; just God the Father AND God the Son. Let's continue;

[11] And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

So the Son is ONE with the Father AND all those that the Father has given the Son are ALSO ONE! So we too are ONE with God! But how? Let's read more. Let's see at what point Jesus mentions God the Holy Ghost

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

So the ones that God sent to Jesus are separated, or sanctified, by His word, the Holy scriptures. Let's read who else is sanctified by the word and made ONE with God;

[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

So now we read that EVERYONE that believes in the word/scriptures and brings the SAME message are ONE, just as the Father and the Son are ONE! Now let's read who brings the message of God;

John.14
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John.15
[26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John.16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

So the Comforter, also called the Spirit of Truth and the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit, brings ONLY what was given to him. So if the Holy Spirit/Comforter/Holy Ghost/Spirit of Truth brings the same message, he too is ONE with everyone that does the same.

So now when we read the following, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." it is much clearer.

This scripture IS NOT saying all (3) form into one, or that the Father is from one dispensation and the Son and the Holy Spirit from another. Nor does it mention anything about them being of the same substance or any nonsense like that. Nor is it a "Mystery" of faith!


The scripture simply means that EACH one of them, ALL (3), have and bring the SAME message.

That is why it is possible for you to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and not the Father or Son!

That is why the Father can know the time and the hour, but NOT the Holy Spirit or the Son!

That is why Son will judge and NOT the Father and the Holy Ghost!

Because they are all individual entities; God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit and angel of God, not A God!

Now this makes sense!


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except that there is no scriptural basis that the Holy Spirit is an angel, and scripture states

in Phl 2:6 of Jesus that, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

and that makes Supernatural sense, for God is a Supernatural being
Really? Well let's read the word of God to see what it says. First let's find out what angels are;


Heb.1
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

So we know for a fact that angels are SPIRITS! And there are only TWO types of spirits; 'holy spirits' and 'evil spirits'

Again it states;

[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And which angels are ministering spirits doing the work of the Lord? HOLY SPIRITS! Now that we know angels are spirits let's read when an angel was called a "Holy Spirit"


Exod.13
[18] But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.

Even though the verse said it was God that led the people, we will now find out that God gives His 'holy spirits' all authority as Himself in certain situations. Now let's read this same event told later in the book of Isa.

Isa.63
[9] In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

So we find it was 'the angel of his presence' at work. Now let's read what the angel was called;

[10] But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

WHO did the nation of Israel vex? God's 'holy Spirit'! And what was it called? An 'Angel'.

Let's read what else the angle/holy spirit did while working with the authority of God;

[11] Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
[12] That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
[13] That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?

So the period of time being spoken of here is when the Angel of the Lord, a HOLY SPIRIT, looked over and protected the nation of Israel while they were in the wilderness.

Now let's go back to Exod. to confirm this same event that was told in Isa.

Exod.23
[20] Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

So who was it really that protected Israel? God's "Holy Spirit", an Holy Angel! Let's continue;

[21] Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

So this "Holy Angel" had the authority of God to punish as he saw fit.

[22] But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
[23] For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

And he had the authority to reward as he saw fit.

So now we see that the Holy Spirit spoken of in Isa. was actually one of God's Holy Angels.

Let's look at two more places where an Angel, also known as a 'holy spirit' was either called God, or acted or spoke with the authority of God;

Num.22
[35] And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.

Now let’s read who Balaam said gave him the words to speak;

[38] And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.

Even though the angel of the Lord gave Balaam the words to say, Balaam said it was the Lord that put the words in his mouth.

And another;

Judg.2
[1] And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Again, the angel, a 'Holy Spirit' is talking as though he was the one that made the covenant, though we know it was really the Lord, the angel still spoke as if it were he that made the agreement with the nation of Israel.

When reading God's word you will find many places where the angel of the Lord speaks and works as though he is the Lord. You will find throughout the scriptures many times when the Lord gives His "Holy Spirits" the same power and authority as Himself.

These are just a few examples found throughout God's Holy word.
Amen Ecclesiastes!!! Great Post!!
You will find throughout the scriptures many times when the Lord gives His "Holy Spirits" the same power and authority as Himself.

Okay, in continuing to research this, God has also given us the same power and authority in HIS Name, when we use it appropritately, We are not angels.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

And Jesus as the scriptures state was begotten a little lower than the angels.

Hbrws 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Im pointing out these scriptural facts to show to you where your confusion is with giving Gabriel, an angel, the distinction of the Holy Spirit.

Angels are messengers of God, this is correct, and Daniel is the first biblical figure to refer to individual angels by name.

However the one thing that specifically sticks out is that angels just as we, are CREATED beings as Psalms 8 points out ..... "praise ye Him, all His angels: praise ye Him, all His hosts... for He spoke and they were made. He commanded and they were created

So the concept of the Holy Spirit being an angel and not the essence of God is not plausible, for the Word states that the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit will bring into our remembrance ALL things, so although angels have greater knowledge than men, they are not omniscient, as Matthew 24:36 points out
Are not Angles "Spirits"? Simple question! Answer? YES!

ALL angels are "spirits"

Now what of the angles that did NOT side with satan? Are they Holy or Evil? Another simple question! Answer? HOLY!

Now here is one I'm sure you do not know;

Why was Jesus "made a little lower than the angels"?

Answer?.............

While it is true....angels and humans are created beings, but there is a difference. And that difference is why Jesus was made lower than the angels!

Now you say the Holy Spirit is "the essence of God". According to your trinity doctrine they are "ONE".

But you still have not answered the OTHER questions I presented! Here they are once again;

Luke.12
[10] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

If they are ONE, how can you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and not the Father or Son?

Mark.13
[32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

If they are ONE, how can the Father know the time and the hour, but NOT the Holy Spirit or the Son?

John.5
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

If they are ONE, how can the Son judge WITHOUT the Father and the Holy Ghost?




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Eccl. the true interpretation of "the little lower than the angels" in Hebrew or Greek would be "made for a little some (or a little while) lower than the angels".

(Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2:6-8) are indicating that for a time period Adam (Psalms) and Jesus (Hebrews) were created in a certain position and would have to grow to perfection and thus to true dominion.

Adam was to accomplish this through faith in the commandment and Jesus did accomplish this through suffering

In reference to your questions
THEY ARE ONE! and according to the Trinity doctrine coined by Tertullion, on the foundation that the disciples had to reconcile their belieft in ONE GOD with a risen Christ, Jesus, Jesus had to have been God in the Flesh, the Holy Spirit is the essence of God,that Jesus sent back to us to Comfort, lead and guide us until his return.

God promised man dominion over the earth, HE could not take back HIS word, HE cannot lie, and sent HIS Son, in the flesh, those dominional boundaries exist and still exist because of the purity of God.
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I’ll just cut to the chase concerning your first answer.

Jesus Christ was and always has been God. He was with God the Father since the beginning of time;

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

God is a spirit being.

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

God made His angels spirit beings also;

“And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.”

Spirit beings DO NOT DIE! So how could Jesus come into this world and die for our sins if He remained a spirit being? He had to come in a flesh and blood body. A body that could DIE! He couldn’t do it as God. Being made human was the ONLY way!

If you just read the scriptures…..it tells you right there;

Heb.2
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

“…for the suffering of death…”

So NO!!! Jesus was not made lower than the angels to, “grow to perfection and thus to true dominion.”. He was already God before coming to the world in the flesh….He was already PERFECT!!!!

Next;

Are you kidding me? You are basing your faith on a doctrine conceived by a "MAN" almost 200 years AFTER the death of Christ?

Tertullion came up with this 'trinity' concept on his own and the Catholic Church later accepted it. Did you know that the "MAN" you base your 'trinity doctrine' also believed there was a time when Jesus Christ did NOT even exist? Although the bible says the following;

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

And this is your "proof"?

Why did it take 200 years for this concept to be realized? Why did NONE of the Apostles, disciples or even Jesus Christ Himself NEVER bring it up?

This I know for a fact! How you may ask? Let's read what Jesus told His followers to teach, both while He was alive AND after His death;

Matt.28
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now at what point did Jesus teach ANYTHING about there being a trinity?

Now let's read what Jesus did AFTER He was raised;

Luke 24
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

So now His disciples have FULL knowledge of the scriptures! And which scriptures do they have full knowledge of? The ONLY scriptures available to them.......the "OT"!!! Now where in the OT does it speak of a 'trinity'?

John 17
[8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them,

Again….all that was given to Jesus by the Father, Jesus in turn gave to His disciples. No trinity mentioned!

Did you even bother to read John 17 to find out how Jesus Christ Himself explained how He and the Father are ONE? It’s very clear and to the point. No “mystery of faith”. Notice in John 17, Jesus NEVER even mentions the Holy Spirit as being apart of the Godhead. Would not this have been a good time to speak on the matter?

And why can I NOT find anything about, “the essence of God” anywhere in His Holy Word?

I find the more people try to describe things that are not in the bible, the more words they must use that are also NOT found in the bible!!!


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I'll cut to the chase as well, I do not agree with your interpretations of the scriptures. Shalom
Is not what I said true?

Are angels not spirits?

Is God not a spirit?

Was Jesus not God since the beginning?

Do Spirit beings die?

Did not Gods word say Jesus was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death?

How is this MY interpretation?

Have I said something that is not correct?

You do not have to agree.....but that does that change what the word of God says!



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Re-post from another thread:

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who make up God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun Elohim is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word Elohim and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for God, Elohim, definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17, 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).

Shalom

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