Jesus is Yah myth debunked and refuted

[Zealot X]

This thread is designed to show that the doctrine of Hezekiah and others that YHWH and Yeshua (The Messiah) are the same person is false. Hezekiah has consistently railed against me for not believing what he believes (even though he is in the minority of Israelites) but he has a tendency to cry foul every time I invite him to debate it out fairly. I have even advised him that he can take some time to study first before beginning the debate. I believed I was being fair. He attacked me further and then ignored my posts. Now he is accusing me again and posting texts at me. So I would like for Hezekiah and any one else who agree with this false doctrine to step up and have a reasonable and rational debate. No argumentum ad hominem. No immature games. Just text and commentary.

And for Hezekiah.... I know you detest commentary but without supplying it I have to GUESS what your interpretation is. Stop assuming that what you read can only say one thing; what YOU think it says. Explain why you believe it says what you believe it says.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Bro. Hezekiah thinks that because you are pastors/preachers you should already know what he is talking about from the scriptures he post. But, if that was the case, why are you having this dialogue/debate? Go figure!

"sign"

[Zealot X]

Anthony....... boy do you have a talent for REASON and LOGIC! This is exactly the problem that myself and a few other have had with him for months now. And this is exactly true. He forces us to guess what he's thinking because there's no way we can say "oh your texts are wrong". That's silly. But just because someone quotes texts that doesn't mean they are properly applied and in the correct context. Commenting on it helps us understand WHY you choose to quote the text and how you INTERPRET it. And I don't like assuming all this. I take all the risk of having an incorrect assumption and he takes none because he can see an abundance of my thought process and with nothing hidden.

shalom

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Bro. Watson & Zealot,

Reading your posts is like sitting in a classroom. And the beauty of it all, I get educated FOR FREE!
Keep teaching. :-)

God bless you both.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

Being a Trinitarian, I beleive in The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, the Godhead, I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, YHWH, YAH, I AM, I believe in our Saviour, Yeshua, Jesus, I believe in HIM that abides inside me, The Spirit Man.

It's that simple to me

God, the Father Almighty, the Author and Creator of all things. The Old Testament reveals God in diverse manners, by manifesting his nature, character, and dominions. The Gospels in the New Testament give us knowledge of God the “Father” or “My Father”, showing the relationship of God to Jesus as Father, or representing Him as the Father in the Godhead, and Jesus himself that Son St. John 15:8, 14:20.

Jesus also gives God the distinction of “Fatherhood” to all believers when he explains God in the light of “Your Father in Heaven” St. Matthew 6:8

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Second person in the Godhead of the Trinity or Triune Godhead. Jesus was and is eternal in his person and nature as the Son of God who was with God in the beginning of creation St. John 1:1.

Jesus Christ was born of a virgin called Mary according to the scripture St. Matthew 1:18, this suffering servant came seeking to redeem man from sin and to reconcile him back to God, his Father (Romans 5:10.

Jesus Christ is standing now as mediator between God and man I Timothy 2:5

[Zealot X]

I'd rather not derail my own thread by addressing trinitarian belief. Still my spirit urges me to at least say something.

Those of you who believe in the trinity, I hope that one day you will decide to do your own research. Don't accept it just because it sounds good or because someone makes a good argument. The idea of 3 being one G-d did not originate from the bible. It came from paganism. To really understand you have to go back to ancient Babylon and Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz. When you understand that Dec 25th is Tammuz's birthday, not Yeshua's, then we can perhaps make real progress on this issue. But no where in the bible does it say that 3 can be one G-d and that this is a legitimate way to make an end run around monotheism. Jews don't believe it. Muslims don't believe it. Only Christians because Christianity has undergone a merger with pagan Rome. Don't believe me. Read for yourself about the compromises they made. Read about Constantine. Understand that he was himself a sunworshipper long before he ever claimed a Christian belief (because he had a dream about conquering people with the cross as a symbol. Who says this dream was of G-d?).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#IV
The trinity as a mystery

The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message. [end quote- but highly suggest a full reading ]

According to the authors of the trinity (and for the sake of all that is holy please research pre-trinity beliefs. There would not even be pre-trinity beliefs if this was reflective of all believers in messiah.) EVEN WHEN REVEALED remains hidden by the "veil of faith" and "enveloped" by darkness.... "so to speak". But somehow you think its that simple.... You haven't seen the complications yet.

Here's something else the authors of the Trinity say:
The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. Indeed, of all revealed truths this is the most impenetrable to reason. Hence, to declare this to be no mystery would be a virtual denial of the canon in question.

The AUTHORS say that to deny it as a mystery is a virtual denial of the Trinity doctrine itself. What does the bible call the authors?

Revelation 17:5 - And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

To be fair there were mysteries in the NT. Yeshua spoke in parables. But he also said this:

John 18:20 - Yeshua answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Yeshua made known the things that were mysteries and explained them to his disciples. Where is the explanation that says 1 G-d can be 3 persons when on the other hand Yeshua said:

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true G-d, and Yeshua haMashiach, whom thou hast sent.

and YHWH said:
Isaiah 45:21 - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no G-d else beside me; a just G-d and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

On one hand I have Yeshua calling the Father, the ONLY TRUE G-D, and on the other I have YHWH speaking by the prophet Isaiah saying that he has told us from ancient times that there is no G-d other than him. If there was a bible with one page and on this one page were only these two verses what would you, being able to read and comprehend English, think?


shalom

[Zealot X]

One additional note: Why is the trinity "the most impenetrable to reason"? Easy.

If the Father is God and Jesus is God and the Holy Ghost is God then....
1 God + 1 God + 1 God = 3 gods. That is REAL math and REAL POLYtheism.

1/3 God + 1/3 God + 1/3 God = 1 God but in this scenario NONE of these three can be called God individually. And that's not biblical. Nor is it tradition.

1 x 1 x 1 = 1 God. Cute, but multiplying by one ISN'T multiplying at all.

In reality the trinity teaches 3 gods and if the bible wanted to teach 3 gods it would call them 3 gods. It wouldn't confuse you by saying ONE G-d every single time. The ONE G-d is called YHWH and also the Father.

NT example:
Ephesians 4:6 - One G-d and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This is speaking of just one person, the Father. He is above us, he works through us, and he works in us. In other words, the ONE TRUE G-D, YHWH, is the G-d of heaven above us, but he worked through men like Moses and Yeshua, and he also works in us through the power of HIS SPIRIT (the holy spirit). That's ONE G-d. That's ONE Father. That's YHWH.

He that hath an ear...

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Whats so funny is that, though Tertullian was the first to coin the term Trinity, the disciples of the Apostles taught a Trinitarian doctrine, because they received it from the Apostles themselves. Men like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp of Smyna, WAAAAAAAAAYYY before the Roman Catholic Church, spoke of such a GOD. Who were they? They were the disciples of Apostles Peter and John, ordained to be Bishops of their cites by the hands of those Apostles themselves. To deem them in error is to deem their teachers in error, the Apostles. To deem the Apostles in error is to deem their Teacher in error, the LORD & Apostle JESUS Himself.

Another thing that is funny is that you TOTALLY avoided the scriptures that speak of JESUS being GOD in the NT. But hey, no point in derailing your blog, cause we have another boxing ring for that one........

[Zealot X]

"the disciples of the Apostles taught a Trinitarian doctrine, because they received it from the Apostles themselves."

Well since you find this so funny, Trevor, perhaps you can show me where in 1 Clement this trinitarian doctrine of yours exists. Here's a exerpt from 1 Clement but below you'll find a link to the entire epistle.

1Clem 42:1
The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus
Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God.

1Clem 42:2
So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both
therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.


Does this sound trinitarian to you?

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-lightfoot.html

1Clem 43:6
What think ye, dearly beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that
this would come to pass? Assuredly he knew it. But that disorder
might not arise in Israel, he did thus, to the end that the Name of
the true and only God might be glorified: to whom he the glory for
ever and ever. Amen...

I find this quite devastating to your case. I trust you do not agree. Here's another bomb.

1Clem 46:6
Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was
shed upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ?

oh no...... here's another one....

1Clem 59:4
We beseech Thee, Lord and Master, to be our help and succor. Save
those among us who are in tribulation; have mercy on the lowly; lift
up the fallen; show Thyself unto the needy; heal the ungodly; convert
the wanderers of Thy people; feed the hungry; release our prisoners;
raise up the weak; comfort the fainthearted. Let all the Gentiles
know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and
we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.

wow.... Have I ever had someone give me so much evidence to prove them wrong? hmmm... not sure, but this is crazy. This dude is single-handedly annihlating your case. I don't even have say anything, just underline what he says.

1Clem 64:1
Finally may the All seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all
flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and us through Him for a
peculiar people


Thank you Trevor. Thank you so much.

Shalom

[Zealot X]

Do you guys actually read this stuff?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Actually, we wanted to ask you the same thing.....

[Zealot X]

"Trevor, perhaps you can show me where in 1 Clement this trinitarian doctrine of yours exists. "

thanks

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Did you look below, and read what I posted already?