Jesus is Yah myth debunked and refuted

[Zealot X]

This thread is designed to show that the doctrine of Hezekiah and others that YHWH and Yeshua (The Messiah) are the same person is false. Hezekiah has consistently railed against me for not believing what he believes (even though he is in the minority of Israelites) but he has a tendency to cry foul every time I invite him to debate it out fairly. I have even advised him that he can take some time to study first before beginning the debate. I believed I was being fair. He attacked me further and then ignored my posts. Now he is accusing me again and posting texts at me. So I would like for Hezekiah and any one else who agree with this false doctrine to step up and have a reasonable and rational debate. No argumentum ad hominem. No immature games. Just text and commentary.

And for Hezekiah.... I know you detest commentary but without supplying it I have to GUESS what your interpretation is. Stop assuming that what you read can only say one thing; what YOU think it says. Explain why you believe it says what you believe it says.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

It does not make Him YHWH the FATHER, but it DOES declare Him to be GOD.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Thanks for that confession of yours. It does NOT make Him YHWH, but it does make Him Elohim(a mighty one). :)

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Thanks! Every vote counts!!

[James Pierce]

Anthony,

He got my vote on it too!

[Zealot X]

Yes..... but again..... you are assuming that the LOGOS is a person. The only reason why you make this assumption is because you read the text backward. I'm trying to help you. Let's look at some examples from the NT so you can see how the "word of G-d" is described as "coming". Hopefully, since I believe you are very intelligent, you should see that they are employing some figurative language. When you are talking about literal things it is most simple to use literal language. But when you are talking about spiritual things then you use figurative language so that people can understand. With that said please follow along.

Mark 7:13 - Making the word of G-d of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Luke 3:2 - Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of G-d came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.


Pause. How was John born? The word of G-d came to John. John was born to a previously barren mother. And for some reason John says this:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of G-d, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of G-d.

plural. John is clearly speaking of multiple persons. Could he not have been speaking of himself, showing that he is a credible witness because he received the "word of G-d"? I just showed you were it said that the word of G-d came to him. When did it come to him? It says in the wilderness. How old was he when he was in the wilderness? How old was Yeshua at that time?

John 10:35 - If he called them gods[judges], unto whom the word of G-d came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Yeshua is saying that the word of G-d also came to HIM! So how then is he the "Word"? You have been bamboozled. Yeshua defended himself against the charge of making himself a judge by saying that he had every right to be a judge because the word of G-d had come to him. If that is true then he is NOT the "Word". Of course he doesn't have to be in order for John 1 to make sense.

The word was the word. It was not a person. It was not alive. It was NOT FLESH.

Luke 8:21 - And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of G-d, and do it.

They weren't confused about what the word of G-d was.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we G-d without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of G-d which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of G-d, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

When John said that the word became flesh he was talking about the word of G-d taking the FORM of a living person. This is FIGURATIVE not metaphysical. Just like in Ephesians 6 the word is not literally a sword. It's figurative. It's a metaphor. The torah, written on stone, in the new covenant was supposed to be written on the heart. Is that literal too? Did that not happen? I say it happened because people heard the "WORD OF G-D" and accepted it and believed. And this is how they became the sons of G-d and righteous. It ties in perfectly to the prophets and to 1 John 3. How can you not understand? Yeshua was the MEANS of how YHWH got his word into people's hearts. He didn't send his word on stone tablets, nor through the prophets. Hebrews 1 tells us that in sundry times he gave his word through them but in these times he gave it by Yeshua. By making the word a living breathing thing he could show and demonstrate a perfect example that people could FOLLOW. And from hearing the WORD you can apply it in your life so that it is LIVING in YOU. Do you see the connection?

Jeremiah 31:33 - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their G-d, and they shall be my people.

This is what is happening in the NT with the holy spirit. If this isn't what's happening then this prophecy has not been fulfilled and there is no new covenant; just something cooked up for gentiles to have their own religion. But I say.... this prophecy HAS been fulfilled and that the word of G-d became a seed that was planted in the hearts of men.

Luke 8:11 - Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of G-d.

Yeshua is the "WORD MADE FLESH". He is not the "Word" itself. This is what you fail to comprehend.

Open your heart to hear the word of G-d and pray for understanding. This isn't hard to understand but if you defy the word of G-d with your own belief you will be blind to the truth of his word.

Shalom

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Now last I checked, this verse comes from the Book of the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, written by Apostle John. The same John that wrote John 1:1 wrote Revelation 19:13. Didn't JESUS reveal Himself to John like this twice, or am I twisting scripture again?

School me, thou mighty scribe.....

[Zealot X]

"School me, thou mighty scribe....."

I am tempted to end this dialogue right here. You need to understand that I am not like others you may have debated before. I am not here to school you or be disrespected by your infantile attempts at sarcasm. I'm not going to have a debate with someone who has no hope of actual learning. I share as I have been shared with, to edify those that believe.

Proverbs 15:5 - A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.

If you choose to degenerate the conversation into such things you will find yourself debating by yourself. I'm not here for games or for egos.

Revelation 19....

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great

Now perhaps you are a cannibal. I don't know. Maybe Jeffrey Dahmer was just wetting his appetite for this day. If you sir are a cannibal then I stand corrected and should read this chapter literally as you have read it. As for now, I do not. I read it as a testimony of how the WORD OF G-D (which John personifies) will fight and rule the nations. Prophecy has a tendency to relay information in a manner that is different from any literal reading.

Now I am still waiting on you to post a verse from 1 Clement. About 20 minutes ago or so I see you had access to a computer. If you cannot provide a text from 1 Clement within the next 48 hours (which I think is generous) can we then assume that brought in Clement's name assuming that he was pro-trinity while being mostly ignorant of his actual teachings and the sayings recorded in his epistle? Tic tock.


shalom

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I'm on the clock now? Interesting....The fact that I ALREADY covered the Clement thing seems not to register. Do you ever remember what I had to say concerning that, or not? Or is it that you didn't understand my answer...? I already told you that the very verse that you posted from his letter is that of a Trinitarian verse. It declares JESUS to be Christ, dos it not? For that, you would then have to enter into a discussion about the prophetic scriptures on the Messiah and realize (or admit) that the Messiah was prophesied to be "GOD sent by GOD", according to the writer of Hebrews (Hebrews 1).

You are right concerning your words on the prophetic. However, what you did was totally ignored the context. Prophesy or not, context is still important. You are right that the Word of GOD will fight and rule the nations. The Word of GOD was the name/title given to JESUS. John stated that the Word of GOD was "with GOD", and that the Word of GOD "was GOD" in the very first verse of His gospel.

[Zealot X]

Okay, now I see. You think that any mention of Yeshua being called Messiah is a reference to G-d sent by G-d? Oh wow! You don't know anything about a messiah, do you? And why would I admit to something that is totally fabricated?

Messiah (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ, Modern Mašíaḥ Tiberian Māšîªḥ; in modern Jewish texts in English sometimes spelled Moshiach; Aramaic: משיחא, Greek: Μεσσίας, Syriac: ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ, Məšîḥā, Arabic: المسيح‎, al-Masīḥ, Latin: Messias) literally means "anointed (one)".

In Jewish messianic tradition and eschatology, messiah refers to a future King of Israel from the Davidic line, who will rule the people of united tribes of Israel[1] and herald the Messianic Age[2] of global peace. In Standard Hebrew, The Messiah is often referred to as מלך המשיח, Méleḫ ha-Mašíaḥ (in the Tiberian vocalization pronounced Méleḵ haMMāšîªḥ), literally meaning "the Anointed King."

[quote from wikipedia: Messiah ]

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto YHWH for a sin offering.

what is the word above for anointed?

http://bible.worthwhile.com/bible.php?b=lev&c=4&v=0&d=4...

it is "MASHIYACH" (MESSIAH!!)

ALL PRIESTS WERE MASHIYCAH (anointed) Leviticus 7:36

Leviticus 8:12 - And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him.

Is Aaron JESUS? You are the one who is totally ignoring the context.

Samuel 10:1 - Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because YHWH hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?

Hebrews 1:9 - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore G-d, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (AND THIS IS A QUOTE FROM PSALMS SPEAKING OF DAVID!)

DAVID was anointed with oil (MASHIYACH). It simply means he was chosen and set apart for the will of G-d. MASHIYACH does not make anyone G-d. To think otherwise is to not know what MASHIYACH means. But then again, this is your problem. You do not have a scriptural foundation. You judge the scriptures by what you are taught of the New Testament.

Here is something else you didn't know from the Scriptures.

Hezekiah (or Ezekias) (Hebrew: חִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Ḥizqiyyāhu, Khizkiyahu; or יְחִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Yəḥizqiyyāhu, Y'khizkiyahu) means "YHWH Mighty God, or The Might of God"(compare Ezekiel).[citation needed]
[ Wikipedia: Hezekiah ]

What does his name mean? YHWH Mighty G-d! Hezekiah just so happened to be the object of a prophecy from Isaiah. Which one?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

There is no such thing in scriptures as another G-d next to YHWH. The things you think you know.... you don't know. Your knowledge is built upon lies and false doctrines. You imagine the title "word" was given to Yeshua but it NEVER was. It's not in scriptures. And its not in the gospels. YOU simply do not understand. Where, during Yeshua's life did he claim to be the "word"? All you will see are FIGURATIVE references. Is this the level of your understanding?

G-d sent by G-d? And you have the gall to talk to me about context? Read Psalms 45 (the whole chapter)


shalom

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Zealot,

Please interpret this scripture, as I do not think Jesus is referring to his earthly father, Joseph.

'I and my Father are one." John 10:30

[Zealot X]

I and my Father are one should not be taken as co-gods unless we are all co-gods. Why? Because the exact same oneness he had with his Father is the exact same oneness he wanted all of us to have. Please consider the following:

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Do you see? Whatever glory Yeshua was given he gave that away to his followers. What was this glory?

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

what does begotten of the Father mean?

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of G-d: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of G-d, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It is not robbery to be "like G-d". The writer understands the words of Yeshua and applies them all of those who would be his followers. Yeshua was like the Father because he saw him as he is.

John 6:46 - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of G-d, he hath seen the Father.

John 14:9 - Yeshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Yeshua was not claiming to BE the Father anymore than he was claiming to be G-d. In the Hebrew culture, G-d of Israel, YHWH, The Father, Adonai, are all synonymous. But there was a concept that not everyone understood and that is "G-d in you". We can be connected to G-d by his spirit and when his spirit is in us it makes us more like him. It is the LIKENESS between G-d and man that makes us his children.

Genesis 9:6 - Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Who was created in G-d's image? Man. We seem to have forgotten this when were gave ourselves over to corruption. But our Father remembers.

2 Corinthians 4:4 - In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Messiah, who is the image of G-d, should shine unto them.

One more text and the connection should be complete....

Luke 3:38 - Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of G-d.

did you get it?

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

You should now begin to see that Yeshua was a man who was created in the image of G-d and it is the image of G-d that he made us all. People see that image of G-d and forget the scriptures, forget the law, forget the word of G-d that says there are no other gods and no G-d beside YHWH. But this is the same image we were created in. Yeshua is who we were all designed to be and that is why, by becoming like him, we can get back into the image and likeness of G-d and in THAT we will find ONENESS. You cannot be one with G-d without being like him.

If you reject the Father you reject the son and vice versa. It's not because they are the same. It is because they have the same spirit. You mess with my sister, you mess with me. That is the love that binds together humans into a "family". YHWH is the Father. YHWH has children. That's a family. The family is a ONENESS with the Father at the head. What family has a Father sharing the same title as the son? We have one Father.

John 6:56 - He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 17:21 - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

1 John 4:13 - Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

ONENESS through one Spirit/ one Mind.
1 Corinthians 6:17, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 2:18, Ephesians 4:4, Philippians 1:27, 1 Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 4:2, 1 Peter 4:1

Shalom

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

You know whats interesting Zealot, we ARE called gods, and we DO share in the inheritances of Christ our brother given Him by GOD our FATHER. Thats both OT and NT.