Jesus is Yah myth debunked and refuted

[Zealot X]

This thread is designed to show that the doctrine of Hezekiah and others that YHWH and Yeshua (The Messiah) are the same person is false. Hezekiah has consistently railed against me for not believing what he believes (even though he is in the minority of Israelites) but he has a tendency to cry foul every time I invite him to debate it out fairly. I have even advised him that he can take some time to study first before beginning the debate. I believed I was being fair. He attacked me further and then ignored my posts. Now he is accusing me again and posting texts at me. So I would like for Hezekiah and any one else who agree with this false doctrine to step up and have a reasonable and rational debate. No argumentum ad hominem. No immature games. Just text and commentary.

And for Hezekiah.... I know you detest commentary but without supplying it I have to GUESS what your interpretation is. Stop assuming that what you read can only say one thing; what YOU think it says. Explain why you believe it says what you believe it says.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Zealot,

Is not the Word referred to in this scripture none other than Jesus?

John 1:1-3
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Does this not indicate that Jesus and God were one before Jesus became flesh?

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

What other human being do you know of that walked perfectly in the will of God other than Jesus after the Fall of man? No one. Because unlike mankind today and then, Jesus was born without the sin nature. Adam came close, but he was no cigar because if he had truly been perfect, he never would have sinned.

Remember, when God created the earth and all that is within, He called it good - not perfect.

I am not saying there are 3 gods - there is only one GOD, the CREATOR. So, allow me to cut & paste my previous response to the Trinity.

The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun Elohim is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word Elohim and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for God, Elohim, definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct persons in the Trinity.

The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another person in the Trinity—the Father.

Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17, 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

It stands to reason why some will reject the biblical teachings of the Trinity because there really is no way in our language to explain or describe the Almighty God that we love and serve. He cannot be fit into a minuet description - this is where faith really steps in strong believing who God is.

The more intimate we become in our relationship with God, the less we will tend to question of Him.

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

Ok Zealot,

I see you are catching on to the humor . . .
:-)

"School me, thou mighty scribe....."

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

He needs work......

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

The meaning of being the "word of God" lies in the hebraic understanding of "word."

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Blah, blah blah.......We've been there and are actually there right now, James. Sit back, relax, and lemme learn ya somethin' kiddo!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Ok... teach me.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Rookies!! You think that the OT prophets only pointed to ten feet and/or ten minutes ahead of them? Allow me to help you out here.....

What you told me concerning King Hezekiah and Isaiah 9:6 is old news. The Orthodox Jews fully understood that it pointed to Hezekiah for that time, however, those who believed upon Messiah to come understood that to look further to an even greater King.

Do you remember the Epistle to the Hebrews? The writer showed throughout the writing that JESUS was greater than the men that were regarded as being great for their day. He was regarded as the High Priest greater than Aaron; a deliverer and Prophet greater than Moses; when listing the "Hall of Faith" (Hebrews 11), the writer then pointed the JESUS being the very Author and Finisher of our Faith (Hebrews 12). If the writer had taken just a second more, I supposed that he would have included Hezekiah as well, but since he didn't, I'll do it for him :)

King Hezekiah was the man that was responsible for the greatest Passover Israel ever celebrated. A Passover that was spontaneous and true, making a "new covenant" with GOD and Israel (2 Chronicles 29:10). This, like all other OT scriptures, was a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24) which pointed to JESUS and the great revival He would call for. It pointed to the establishment of the great "new covenant" with GOD the FATHER and His people and creation (John 3:16; Hebrews 7, 8, & 9). Isaiah prophesied about the Messiah who would be "the Wonderful Councelor, El Gibbor, Father of Creation, Prince of Peace". Hezekiah was the king who served during the Prophetic years of Isaiah, but Isaiah like all Prophets pointed towards a greater promise.

-GOD told Eve that she would bare a son who would redeem her, but but the clear prophetic word given didn't point to Seth, but to Christ.

-Moses said that a Prophet would rise up after him and that Israel was to follow him, but the clear prophetic word given didn't point to Joshua, but to Christ JESUS.

-King David the Prophet was told by Nathan the Prophet that his son after him would build the Temple, but the clear prophetic word given didn't point to Solomon, but to Christ.

-Isaiah the Prophet spoke of Immanuel being born, but the clear prophetic word given pointed to Christ.

All OT prophetics have a greater purpose, and that purpose is to point to the Messiah who was Immanuel (GOD with us), YESHUA BEN YHWH of Nazareth. You keep thinking that these things that He would be called the Mighty GOD was figurative, but GOD's Word is literal, and actually takes form.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I am just going to address one thing out of this article, and its concerning Deut 18. We must keep it in context. Moses was not referring to Messiah there. He was referring to Joshua. We already been through Isaiah 9:6, but obviously you're not trying to hear the truth about that. Anyways, Deut 18 is about Joshua, not Messiah. That's a typical "christian" mindset that voids Hebraic thought. An attitude similar to Constantine.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Isaiah 30:9-11:

For they are a rebellious people,
lying children,
children unwilling to hear
the Torah of Yahuah;
who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us what is right;
speak to us smooth things,
prophesy illusions,
leave the way, turn aside from the path,
let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel

[Zealot X]

Rookies? You currently and unfortunately displaying who the rookie here is. The reason I told you about Hezekiah is because that is the prophecy Christians like yourself like to point to when claiming that the messiah would be G-d. But actually Isaiah 9:6 is making reference to Hezekiah's literal name. The fact that there are near and far prophecies, types and shadows, is nothing new to me. I'm messianic.

And since you admit that Isaiah 9:6 is speaking of Hezekiah then obviously none of these attributes could be speaking only of Yeshua or of a god for that matter because Hezekiah wasn't one. If you understand theophoric names then you must know many many many if not most Israelites had names containing the name or title of G-d. Unlike the name "Trevor" they had meanings. You mentioned Immanuel. Good for you. But you seem not to understand prophecy. Immanuel meaning "G-d with us" does not mean the person with this name is G-d. It is simply a sign that YHWH is with his people. It is a comfort for those living in a time when it isn't obvious that he is there. You cannot have prophecies that don't point to the people they are clearly about unless you want your prophets dead. It is a rookie error to assume that the prophets could have been wrong during their lifetime and say a thing that never comes to pass for the person they're prophesying of. You need to research the subject of "DUAL-PROPHECY". Hezekiah's name wasn't referring to Yeshua being "mighty G-d". It was a reference to YHWH being the mighty G-d, yesterday, today, and forever.

Very weak argument, Trevor.

Deuteronomy 18:22 - When a prophet speaketh in the name of YHWH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which YHWH hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Each prophecy must be first for who it is for. Otherwise it is nonsense and the prophet would likely be stoned. There's no way a sign would be given to king Ahaz that would not come to pass in his entire lifetime.

In reality, you are not only cherry-picking prophecies but you're also taking names out of context in order to make a claim about a man who made no such claim about himself. And this is Exegesis? Say it aint so.

shalom

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

James, you do GREATLY error. You try to attribute a Hebraic thought and Messianic prophecy to what people call paganism from Constantine. OK then, let me ask you about a particular scripture:

Acts 3:20-24 "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."

Was Apostle Peter, the Apostle to the Jews, also influenced by Emperor Constantine?

[Zealot X]

"You know whats interesting Zealot, we ARE called gods, and we DO share in the inheritances of Christ our brother given Him by GOD our FATHER. Thats both OT and NT."

Step carefully, bible student. There are things that are manipulated in order to manipulate you.

are we gods?

Genesis 3:5 - For G-d doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as "gods", knowing good and evil.

Yeshua was quoting Asaph in Psalms 82:6 - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Is this really the best translation?

1 A Psalm of Asaph. God(elohiym) standeth in the congregation of the mighty(el); he judgeth(shaphat) among the gods(elohiym).

Is this the G-d of the Hebrews or the god Zeus of the Roman pantheon being depicted? If your level of understanding cannot go beyond the English translation then it is Zeus. And why not? Deus in what they call G-d in Latin and it is a cognate form of Zeus. But maybe, perhaps, you desire to know the G-d of the Hebrews. If so, pay attention.

I HIGHLY suggest you use this online bible to follow along, clicking on each word that says god or judge.
http://bible.worthwhile.com/bible.php?b=ps&c=82&v=0&d=8...

what do you think? Is there one G-d judging among the gods? Did you see the definitions for elohiym?

"rulers, judges"

"How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked?"

Here Asaph is talking about righteous judgment and how the wicked have been accepted. They are judging unjustly. Do the "gods" judge unjustly? Is he talking about the trinity judging unjustly? Because that would be SOME accusation! Instead it should be translated "G-d standeth in the assembly of G-d." This is based on Adam Clark's commentary on Psalm 82

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkepsa82.htm

"This Psalm, which, in the title, is attributed to Asaph, was probably composed in the time when Jehoshaphat reformed the courts of justice throughout his states; see 2 Chron. xix. 6, 7, where he uses nearly the same words as in the beginning of this Psalm."
- Adam Clark

Do you find fault with Adam Clark's commentary? If not then you must agree that these were unrighteous judges.

And when Yeshua used this what was he defending himself against?

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

How could a mere man say this? They did not understand. But neither did they have ANY concept of gods so they did not say "thou being a man makest thyself a god". There is one position that is G-d. That is the Father. So they argued that he was guilty of blasphemy because he was claiming to have authority that only G-d (THE FATHER) had (in their understanding). However, his defense was that G-d extends the right to judge to those to whom the word of G-d comes to just as these judges in Psalm 82 had that right.


shalom