New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Jeremiah indeed does speak of the new covenant, however, you friend Isaiah says this concerning the Mediator of the new covenant:

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." - Isaiah 7:14

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." - Isaiah 9:6

The writer of Hebrews says this concerning the Mediator of the new covenant in chapter 1:

"1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

How can you speak about the new covenant which redeems us back unto GOD and calls for us to dwell with GOD, if you do not believe that JESUS is GOD just as the FATHER is GOD? You then say that JESUS is not GOD, but a man. How can a man, even if used by GOD, be the Creator of not just the new covenant, but all creation? The Mediator of the new covenant is also the Creator of the universe and all spiritual realms. He is not just a man, not just an angel, but JESUS is GOD in flesh. If He is not, then not only is the new covenant invalid, but all of OT scripture becomes a lie just as well. Messiah does not come with the power of GOD, or with the wisdom of GOD, but Messiah IS the power and wisdom of GOD.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Let me tell you about Isaiah 7:14. Most Christians believe that this is a prophecy concerning Yashah. But, a closer look at text, more over, chapters 7-8, it shows what Emmanuel does, and that it is not Yashah, for it did nothing with the Assyrian invasion.

1) He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good

2) For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted

3) The Lord spoke to me again: 6 “Because this people has refused the waters of Shiloah that flow gently, and rejoice over Rezin and the son of Remaliah, 7 therefore, behold, the Lord is bringing up against them the waters of the River, mighty and many, the king of Assyria and all his glory. And it will rise over all its channels and go over all its banks, 8 and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.”

When did Yashah do ANY of the above. READ chapters 7-8. And provide evidence for when Yashah did any of the above, and anything in THOSE chapters.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

How can you speak about the new covenant which redeems us back unto GOD and calls for us to dwell with GOD, if you do not believe that JESUS is GOD just as the FATHER is GOD?

Both Yashah and Yehwah are mighty ones. The Hebrew for GOD is Elohim, which means mighty, or strong one. They both carry those words.

How can a man, even if used by GOD, be the Creator of not just the new covenant, but all creation?

I never said He was man only. Yashah is the divine word.. the expression of Yehwah's being.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I re-read you post. I never said that JESUS is the FATHER. Thats a Oneness doctrine heresy. I said that JESUS is GOD. That has nothing to do with Him being the FATHER.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

In Hebraic thought, Yashah being "God" would denote Him being a "mighty one." Indeed HE IS mighty. You see, being that the NT's that we written in Greek, alot of its thought comes through it. Greek for God is Theos, and we must look at that word HEBRAICALLY.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Says who?!?! Do you even understand what "GOD" means??!?!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

The Greek for God is Theos.. It means:

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

2) the Godhead, trinity

a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity

b) Christ, the second person of the trinity

c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

3) spoken of the only and true God

a) refers to the things of God

b) his counsels, interests, things due to him

4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

a) God's representative or viceregent

1) of magistrates and judges

2316. theos theh'-os of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:--X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).



The Hebrew for God is Elohim. It means:

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

430 'elohiym el-o-heem' plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

I understand exactly what GOD means. But, without understanding it Hebraically, you will have no clue of it.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Believe me, you really lack understanding on who JESUS is. If you are to say that HE is not GOD, be it from the Hebraic, or Greek or Japanese or whatever sense, then you are off. All cultures have an origin that stem from three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. These three had full knowledge of GOD. All religions are basically perverted forms of the original faith in the One true and Living GOD. It is the Hebrews that understood YHWH only because HE revealed Himself bit by little bit unto their Prophets. The Son of GOD revealed the FATHER unto them fully. It was not revealed by Hebraic sense, or Greek sense, but by GOD sense. You CANNOT box GOD in one cultural understanding. To do that, you say that GOD or even the understanding of GOD, comes from my culture alone. This is heresy, because it is not the Hebrews that made GOD, but GOD who made the Hebrews. GOD, who is the Revealer of revelation, and the discerned of men's hearts, can reveal Himself to anyone even by their own cultural understanding. Wise Apostle Paul went to Mars Hill and revealed GOD to them not by speaking Hebrew, but by using their very own idols because there is no other deity but GOD:

"Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter."- Acts 17:18-32

GOD did not tell us to reveal Hebraic understanding to the people, nor did HE say "preach the Hebrews to all men!" HE said preach the Kingdom of GOD. This has absolutely nothing to do with Hebraic thought. To do otherwise is actually racist, for understanding GOD does not mean one has to fully understand the Jews, they just need to understand love more!

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I gave you the meaning of GOD :). Sooooo

How is it possible that Yeshuah, our Torah keeping Messiah, has a covenant to love one another as He, according to the Torah, loved us, spoke a different commandment than what Yehwah said to love your fellow man as yourself(Lev 19:18)??

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I explained this before, didn't I? Why do you persistently ask me the same question? Thats is insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You did not explain it. The only thing you stated was that they are just different.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Yes I did. How about looking back and seeing.....

Don't be a liar, quote me!