New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[Anna]

Trevor:

Looks like I need to show you what the definitions are for the "Torah", "the Law", the "Law of Moses" and the "Commandments of God" which are the same set of laws:.


"Law of Moses": Definition -
Law of Moses - the laws (beginning with the Ten Commandments) that God gave to the Israelites through Moses; it includes many rules of religious observance given in the first five books of the Old Testament
(in Judaism these books are called the Torah)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Law+of+Moses

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The Ten Commandments are found in the Old Testament in Exodus 20:1–17 and Deuteronomy 5:1–21. Moses was given the commandments by God to seal the covenant (agreement) between God and his people, the Hebrews (Jews). They were intended to influence the people, as followers of One God, to behave in the right way and to choose good rather than evil. The first four commandments set out how to behave towards God, and the next six were about showing consideration towards other people.
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Commandments+of+God+(The+Ten+Commandments)

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The term "Torah" (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "learning" or "instruction," sometimes translated as "Law"[1]), refers either to the Five Books of Moses (or Pentateuch) or to the entirety of Judaism's founding legal and ethical religious texts.[2][3] When used with an indefinite article, "a Torah" usually refers to a "Sefer Torah" (סֵפֶר תּוֹרָה, "book of Torah") or Torah scroll, written on parchment in a formal, traditional manner by a specially trained scribe under very strict requirements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah


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Encyclopedia Britannica provides the following definition:

"In Judaism, in the broadest sense the substance of divine revelation to Israel, the Jewish people: God's revealed teaching or guidance for mankind. The meaning of “Torah” is often restricted to signify the first five books of the Old Testament, also called the Law or the Pentateuch. These are the books traditionally ascribed to Moses, the recipient of the original revelation…"

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Easton's Bible Dictionary
Law of Moses [S]

is the whole body of the Mosaic legislation (1 Kings 2:3; 2Kings 23:25; Ezra 3:2). It is called by way of eminence simply "the Law" (Heb. Torah, Deuteronomy 1:5; 4:8,44; 17:18,19; 27:3,8). As a written code it is called the "book of the law of Moses" (2 Kings 14:6; Isaiah 8:20), the "book of the law of God" (Joshua 24:26).

The great leading principle of the Mosaic law is that it is essentially theocratic; i.e., it refers at once to the commandment of God as the foundation of all human duty.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Dictionaries/EastonsBibleDictionary/...


If you still disagree, provide your definitions proving thta the Torah, the Commandments of God/YHWH are not also called the "Law of Moses".

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Thats has nothing to do with what I said. This definition only addresses the commandments of Moses, not NT covenant. Most of your info usually comes from a mindset of Judaism, which is against the NT scriptures.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

The teachings of the Apostles started with Yashah, right? What was one of Yashah's teachings? Luke 11:28,"Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” This also connects with Deut 8:3,"that He might teach you that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God shall man live."

Trevor, What was the only scripture Yashah, and the Apostles used?

If you claim to be an an Apostles "of Jesus", then why is it that your beliefs and teachings are opposite if His?

What scripture was used when Paul said,"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." WHAT SCRIPTURE were they using?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Obviously it was the OT scriptures which were Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy), the Prophets (which also included the book of Prophet Enoch), and the writings. I do not deny this at all James, so don't make it seem so. I quoted OT scripture during this debate. If I'm not mistaken, I even went and quoted Enoch's book! And yes, the O.T. scriptures are still useful for doctrine because I teach from it as well as the N.T. scriptures. They are highly educational, full of revelation. If it weren't so, then the Apostles wouldn't have used them. They not only used OT scripture, but the Epistles of the Apostles to the Church were regarded on the same level, and in some case, on a higher level.

However this is not a matter of if we can use it for doctrine. This is a matter of "is our new covenant the same as the old covenant", and the answer is no. It was the Apostles themselves that taught what I'm teaching and telling you now. "Similar" and "the exact same thing" are two different phrases and two different meanings. An Apostle's Epistle out ranks the words of the Prophets within the government of GOD. A new covenant was installed, sanctioned by GOD the FATHER, revealed by the LORD JESUS CHRiST, empowered by the HOLY GHOST, enforced by the Apostles of the Lamb.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You teach exactly what the Apostles taught? Ok, then why do you not keep Torah, and teach Torah like the Apostles did?

[Anna]

Trevor, you must not have even read what I posted above.

The Torah, is what Jer. 31, quoted by Heb 8, gets written in the heart of the New Covenant Believer.

I have proven that from the Hebrew text.

I have proven from the references above that the Torah is called the "Law Of Moses" and refers to the "Commandments of God/YHWH".

Another text to support my view is Malachi 4.

The time frame of which it speaks is yet future, when we are to remember the "Law of Moses" before "Elijah" comes, before the "Day of the Lord", referred to in Revelation 1:

Malachi 4:

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

In Romans 3 - The Apostle Paul wanted to establish the Law, not abolish it.

"Do we then make the Law (obviously the "Law of Moses" void through faith? May it never be! Rather, we establish the Law (of Moses)" (Romans 3:3 1).

Paul also said:

"But this I confess unto you . . . I worship the God of my fathers, committed to all things which are written in the Law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14).

Written in the "Law" refers to the "Law of Moses". Paul believed these things, why don't you Trevor?

Our Messiah related to the "Law of Moses" as follows:

Christ recognized the authority of the law. Jesus respected the Law of Moses. Why one asked Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life" Jesus replied, "What is written in the law? How readest thou?" (Lk. 10: 25, 26). When the man correctly answered by alluding to the Ten Commandments, Jesus said "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (vs. 27, 28). Jesus recognized the resident authority of the Hebrew scriptures when he quoted them to defeat the Tempter (Matt. 4, 7, 10, Deut. 8: 3; Ps. 91: 11, 12; Deut. 6: 16).

Christ perfectly kept the Law of Moses. Jesus himself claimed to have been obedient to the law under which he lived, the Law of Moses (Jn. 8: 29, 55). In fact, the Jews were unable to convict Jesus of any transgression of the law (Jn. 8: 46). It is affirmed in the New Testament that Jesus "did no sin" and "was without sin" (I Pet. 2: 22; Heb. 4: 15). Jesus is the only "man" who ever sinlessly kept the law.

Christ taught others to keep the law. As seen, Jesus recognized the authority of the law in his life and taught others to keep the law (Lk. 10: 25-28). Jesus instructed his disciples to obey the law (Matt. 23: 2, 3). Christ defended the law and severely condemned those who perverted the Hebrew scripture (Mk. 7: 7-13; Matt. 23: 16-22).

Messiah kept and taught others to keep the "Law of Moses" His disciples kept and taught others to keep it, and Paul kept the law of Moses, and taught others to keep it.

Finally, you quoted:

2 Pet 3:
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets

Isaiah the prophet tells us of the following regarding the Sabbath of YHWH:

Isa.56
[2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

[4] For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa.58
[13] If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Isa.66
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Anna:

I know that JESUS taught this, however it wasn't to be forever as you think. A new covenant literally means just that: a new covenant! Do you regard NT testament scriptures at all? Do you find the Epistles to be authoritative, or just certain verses? Do you live by them, or by the O.T. scriptures alone?

Galatians 5

1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You continue to exclude the Torah from the new covenant when Yehwah clearly decreed it in the new covenant. Why do you exclude it??

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Because of what the Apostle stated, thats why. I clearly stated before, the portion of the Torah that you exclude is the Edenic state that GOD ORIGINALLY had, and that GOD is restoring.

Don't ask me why I keep forsaking the Law of Moses. Answer why you keep rejecting GOD's returning us to Eden (Revelation 21 & 22), a time BEFORE the adhering to Sabbaths and feasts and circumcision??

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Hmm, so whatever the Apostles stated, no matter what YEHWAH said, you will go with the Apostles, even if they would disagree with the FATHER? WOW! ok.

I proved to you that we will not be going back to an "edenic" state. What scripture actually proves that? You have yet to prove it.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

James you said:

"Hmm, so whatever the Apostles stated, no matter what YEHWAH said, you will go with the Apostles, even if they would disagree with the FATHER? WOW! ok."


That was honestly a stupid statement. Since when did the Apostle teach contrary to what GOD said!?? Are you saying that Apostle Paul taught against GOD's Word and will?

As for the Edenic state, look at Revelation 21, and compare it to Eden. If you want me to walk you through it AGAIN, I will. I spoke on this before. I may not have proven it to you, but thats only because you choose not to believe. That doesn't mean that my point was not valid. Likewise, you haven't proven a thing to me because I still disagree with you.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

If the Apostles agreed to all of the words of Yehwah, and Yehwah said His Torah is forever, then why do you not agree? Your lineage of Apostleship does not start with Yashah's original 12, but rather your start with early church fathers.