Questions for the Hebrew Israelite Brethren and Sisteren...

[newview]

Why are you guys of the Hebrew Israelite denomination so caught up in the flesh - OT, OT, OT. Have you guys ever been effected by that which is spiritual?

Do miracles ever happen amongst your congregants - like other wordly happenings - things that you can't explain and yet don't contradict the word of God?

Do you guys ever speak in tongues under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost? and if so Have they been interpretated and if so - what were a few of the messages?

Does the Lord ever give y'all visions? Daytime visions?

When there is sick among you - has your elders been called to anoint the sick with oil and pray for them and you see them miraculously healed?

Are there any-any-any white people in any of your congregations? or have there ever been any at one time but are now gone?

Do you guys believe in the resurrection of the dead?

Do you sing songs? If so - name at least 5.

Do you dance for joy in the Lord?

Are there any in your congregations who prophesy on things to come? - if so - please share a few.

When I read yall posts I often wonder if there is any joy and anything spiritual going on in your assemblies. It does not seem so, but there could be alot going on and you guys are just not sharing it with us.
And if your goal is to convert - you really need to step out and say something that the board can know or at least surmise that the God of Heaven steps out of Eternity and deals with your group(s).
I dont want it to seem that I am asking for a sign but I guess I am because the early church brought with their doctrine power and demonstration.

Otherwise - to me at least - it seems that what you brothers are sharing is stagnant.
And I say that out of love. I really enjoy scrapping with you guys over many of the subjects but when it gets down to business - outside of the OT - there is a dead pool effect going on.

Besides striving about the Law - share with the board how God deals with you guys mightily.

In Peace

[Zealot X]

Trevor,


WHAT? LOL.

The conclusion you are trying to draw from these texts is absurd. You are greatly confused about how to love G-d. You do not love G-d by "loving" his son. You love G-d by BEING HIS SON. How could you not understand? You are twisting the bible in order to support YOUR view so that you can continue in sin and unrighteousness and put Yeshua on a pedastal so he can say that he doesn't know you. And there is one certain reason why he would say that. Because you work iniquity, not because you did kiss him.

1 John 3:10 - In this the children of G-d are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of G-d, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:2 - By this we know that we love the children of G-d, when we love G-d, and keep his commandments.

What you fail to point out in your misguided approach to the bible, is that Yeshua came to show people how to keep the law; HOW TO LOVE.

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Yeshua began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Repent of what? You do not understand the connection between the law and love. The law IS love. Yeshua isn't looking for children or worshippers. He's looking for brothers, sisters, mothers, who will do the will of G-d.

Mark 3:35 - For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

You're too busy making him into an idol that you cannot see him for what he truly was and what he hoped to accomplish.

Matthew 4:10 - Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship YHWH thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

He keeps saying "it is written, it is written" WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN? WHAT MANNER OF WRITING DID YESHUA DEPEND ON AND TEACH???

Exodus 34:14 - For thou shalt worship no other god: for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous G-d:

YHWH gets JEALOUS when his people worship other gods. You cannot love him if you are making him jealous by doing that which he does not like, permit, or approve of. You do not know how to be in a relationship with YHWH if you do not listen to his expectations of you. You think that you can be in a relationship with someone in which they only hear what YOU want but you don't hear what they want. "Love my son"? Really? If you loved the son you would love the father and vice versa. If you don't love me then you do not love the son. Yeah I said it. I'll say it again. If you do not love me then you do not love the son. You're probably thinking blasphemy but if you do it is only because you err not knowing the scriptures or the teachings of Yeshua.

Matthew 25:40 - And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:45 - Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Why would he say that? Because he loves EVERYONE, from the greatest to the least. Now how does Yeshua imagine that we should show love to the least?

Matthew 25
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

These things are what James would call "works of the law". They are the WORKINGS of LOVE. Love works. Love is not just some warm feeling you get about people you care for. It is a guiding principle for how you treat people. And this is how James could say faith without works is DEAD and that his faith was evidenced by his WORKS. If the teachings of Yeshua were as YOU say then the following would not be a true statement.

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

THESE shall go away into everlasting punishment (final damnation) but the RIGHTEOUS into eternal life. What happened to your belief that none are righteous and there's nothing you can do to be righteous so there's no point even trying to be righteous by keeping the law or doing the good works of the law? Where is that theology present in this chapter, in THIS teaching of the Messiah? I would love it if you knew what you were talking about and if you followed the messiah who is our example of righteousness.

John 13:15 - For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

1 Peter 2:21 - For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

FOLLOW HIS STEPS. How difficult is this to understand? If you are not being righteous according to HIS righteousness then by no earthly or heavenly means are you following him. You are only deceiving yourself.

Shalom

[Zealot X]

The love of Yeshua was defined under what you so inadequately call the "old covenant". Only a covenant has nothing to do with the definition of sin. The covenant was only their agreement to keep the law of YHWH. That was made AFTER the law was given on Sinai. Therefore the covenant did not MAKE the law that was GIVEN to Moshe by YHWH.

How do you define love. I would love to hear your definition.

Shalom

[Zealot X]

Anthony,

Matthew 5:7 - Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

what does it mean to have mercy and not sacrifice? If there was no law there would be no sin because...

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Pay attention. According to 1 John there is no way that you can sin without transgressing upon the law because that is what sin is. You can't have sinners coming to repentance and still having a lifestyle that is contradictory to the law. That's not repentance if they keep doing whatever sins they were doing.

12 But when Yeshua heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Sin is compared to a sickness. If you remain sick then what good has the physician been for you? Either way there is a sacrifice made. Either you choose to sacrifice sin out of your life or your life becomes sacrificed to pay for your sins. Mercy and Grace enters in because YHWH had a plan from the beginning that allowed people who had messed up in their lives a chance to redeem themselves and change. The physician heals the sick of their affliction so that they do not perish but have everlasting life. He came to teach righteousness and bring sinners into repentance. What you have to understand that this same everlasting life from John 3:16 is the opposite of the sickness of sin that creates the need for the physician. It's easy to twist the NT in order to hide the true message but look what happens when the truth is revealed. It is obvious from Matthew 9 that the sick are sinners and the whole (or healthy) do not need to be saved (because salvation is from sin), but do you understand that this salvation from sickness to eternal life is sin to righteousness? Let me make it easier for you to see.

Luke 10:25 - And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 18:18 - And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

2 questions. 2 answers. Would it surprise you that the answer in both cases was to keep the law? But it also wasn't as simple as following the LETTER. The ruler said that he had kept the law from his youth and asked what he was lacking. He was lacking love; the very heart of the law. You said it yourself.

"The letter kills, but grace gives life."

The heart of the law is love. YHWH loves us. That is why he gives us chances. Sometimes punishment was extremely difficult and final. The reason was to protect others and to keep the influence of evil out of their community. But not everyone was stoned. The sacrificial system allowed them to live by having some other animal die on their behalf. Grace does give life.

cont'd

[Zealot X]

Anthony,


With all due respect, this is why you do not understand. It would be immensely helpful if you read the law and tell me whether or not the unrighteous and immoral actions specified in the law suddenly became unrighteous or immoral at Sinai.

There is only one road to your rebuttal being on point. Your rebuttal would be on point if the actions that were done before that law WERE NOT WRONG to do. What law was Sodom given? What law were the Amorites breaking that they were given a limited time? Why does Genesis 15:16 speak of the INIQUITY of the Amorites?

Genesis 15:16 - But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

How could they be doing iniquity without a law to tell them so? You have a fundamental misunderstanding about the law on what seems to be an atomic level. You have made the law into a bunch of government-legalisms and that is not what it is. When the law was given at mount Sinai sin did not become sin. YHWH was establishing a RIGHTEOUS government to JUDGE sin and purify the congregation of Yisra'el from it.

I should not have to tell you that Abraham was considered righteous as was Noah. I should not have to tell you that nations were treated differently than individuals. A nation is not simply a group of people. It is a unity of people who work together towards their own common interests. It is ONLY after Yisra'el walked out of Egypt, ONLY after that, they became a nation. And because they were now a nation YHWH gave them a written law through their leader Moses.

But why was this law given? It was given so that they would be righteous, and an example to the world of a righteous nation. You are acting as if the other nations were accepted by YHWH, not having his law? Many converts came out of the nations and became Israelites because they could see their righteousness and desired to follow YHWH.

[Zealot X]

Let's talk about the origin of sin for a moment. You seem to be confused. When you have evil thoughts your actions are only an expression of who you are on the inside. It is out of the abundance of your heart that you do things.

Matthew 6:23 - But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

YHWH, before he created man, did not sit in a room thinking up all the ways that his creations could be evil and all the things they might do. If these actions did not exist yet he would either have to see them exist in the future or imagine them up and invent them himself. Let's say that he saw a million different and unique things that people would do to hurt each other. Should he tell Adam? To tell Adam things that his mind has not yet even conceived would be to put those ideas into his head. It would be a temptation.

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for G-d cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

If you follow the progression of the human story there was MASSIVE destruction before Yisra'el ever even came along. So there should be no notion that YHWH will not destroy even those who do not know what HE has identified in the law as sin. It doesn't matter. Sin is still sin even without you calling it that. The wages of sin is death. YHWH didn't invent sin by giving man an understanding of right and wrong behavior in the law. This was simply an aide, a guide, a "school master", that he used to educate mankind about sin. But he already saw it coming. That's why he said to Cain,

Genesis 4:7 - If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Genesis 13:13 - But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before YHWH exceedingly.

How is it that the men of Sodom were wicked and SINNERS before YHWH even though YAH had not given them a law pointing out the things they were doing were sinful. This is why we need a law in the first place, because people do not know what sin is, nor can they trace the line between good and evil. The only ones who could in the NT were all knowledgeable from the LAW. Paul understood, finally, what Torah was trying to teach. It was trying to teach him how to be a good person. But he wasn't a good person before and he was NOT keeping the law. Whether YHWH tells you or not there is good and evil.

Let me give you a perfect example of lawlessness. Many homosexuals are athiest or agnostic because they REJECT the law of YHWH as it pertains to their immoral sexual behavior. YHWH considers it to be unnatural. THEY DO NOT! This is spelled out in Torah and echoed in those who followed Torah who wrote letters in the "NT". But when you do not know YHWH your Creator you may not know the difference between good and evil. Good will be whatever you can rationalize as such and evil whatever you can't. Most people can rationalize rape, murder, stealing, adultery, etc. That's why many of them commit these crimes. Paul was not downplaying the law by calling it a school master. What do you think Yeshua was to his DISCIPLES? What did they call him? "Master"... "Teacher"... HE WAS ALSO A SCHOOL MASTER!

John 3:2 - The same came to Yeshua by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from G-d: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except G-d be with him.

There is nothing wrong with being a school master. Until you KNOW the difference between good and evil you will always be UNDER your school master. It means that you are DEPENDENT on your master's teaching and guidance. If you weren't then you wouldn't need him. If you are perfect then you don't need to be taught. If you are imperfect and don't know what YHWH has taught then you NEED to learn and you NEED him to teach you. It was simply a better lesson of the SAME PRINCIPLES of the law that YHWH gave when he sent Yeshua to teach Torah. Yeshua brought out the heart of the law that people had forgotten. And many had stopped trying to keep the law during those days because the religious leaders made it into something they didn't believe they could keep what the leaders had made legal; including the traditions of their tribal forefathers which had NOTHING to do with the commandments of YHWH.

When YHWH pointed out that homosexuality was wrong it was already being done. He simply said "don't do that". "Don't do what they're doing." If what they were doing was okay because there was no law then why would he tell them not to do it? He told them not to do it because it was wrong. If you don't understand that then it is time to hit the books once again and submit to the school master.


shalom

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

This is a great post. Good observations. You really see the little things. Not very many people can do that, or I should say that the Holy Ghost allow this gift to very few people. That tells me where your heart is.

Keep doing what you are doing Brother Zealot.

[Zealot X]

Here is what Yeshua said about the law.

Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Fulfill CANNOT mean destroy or else the above statement is false.


18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Look outside your window. Heaven and earth have not passed away.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Here we have Yeshua directly equating the law to righteousness. "For" in this context is just like saying "because". This verse is commonly overlooked by Christians who do not want to keep the law. Your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees or else you cannot enter into the kingdom. Now does the letter of the law make you righteous? No. Just because you manage to go through life without killing someone doesn't mean you're a righteous person. However, if you DO commit murder then there is no way you can claim to be righteous. Do you see?

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Yeshua is not limiting the notion of "the law" to the LETTER of the law. He's talking about the PRINCIPLE of the law, better known as the "heart of the law". Not only are you in danger of the judgment if you break the letter of the law. But if you are even angry with your brother without justification you are also in danger of the same judgment. But how can this be? It is because the heart of the law and the letter are two sides of the same coin. Without the letter, the law cannot verbally express what it is.

Let's say you tell your son or daughter to clean their room because you want them to learn to be responsible. They might clean their room and still become an irresponsible adult. That doesn't negate the fact that you tried to teach them responsibility. And what would happen if they never had to clean their room and all you ever said was "be responsible". Would that make them responsible? Arguably, they may not even know what that word means because they have no act or practice to apply it to. The same is true of love. Love is just a word. It carries only the meaning that we understand it to mean. You can tell two children not to hit each other or you can tell them to love each other. Which will be the most effective? Unless you have a combination of both the children may say "I love you" all the time and all the time hit each other. And when you see them fighting you just stand there shaking your head because you told them to love each other because this is the kind of behavior you were trying to prevent.

Well that is how the law is. YHWH sees all the things we do to each other and he doesn't like it. Here is another direct tie between the law and righteousness.

Deuteronomy 25:16 - For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto YHWH thy G-d.

What is the context here? What are "such things"? These things were things that were identified in the law as being sinful behavior. Sin is... "not right". Therefore it is "right-eous" to keep from sin. If sin is the transgression of the law then righteousness is keeping the law. Now how righteousness differs from the LETTER of the law is that it refers to the principle.

Romans 1:29 - Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

cont'd

[Zealot X]

Whether it is specifically mentioned in the law or not, there is right and there is wrong. The law doesn't and was never meant to verbally identify every single possible permutation, combination, shape, form, or variety of sin and evil. Paul saw it as a training tool, a "school master". The idea that YHWH has to state to you every single thing that you shouldn't do is montrously ludacris. YHWH is not sitting in a room somewhere dreaming up evil things just so he can tempt us by telling us not to do them. When the law came it simply identified evils that were already in the world at that time; specific things that men did that YHWH did not like. But there wasn't rape from the very beginning so why would YHWH tell Adam and Eve not to rape. Their next question then would be... "what is rape?"

The letter of the law covers rape because that was something that went on at the time the law was given. But its not specifically meantioned in the 10 commandments although rape is most certainly immoral behavior. But if you understand the law then you should know that it is against rape.

1 John 5:17 - All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 2:17 - When Yeshua heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Sinners aren't righteous and sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore keeping the law is righteous and not keeping it is unrighteous. Of course if you do not wish to believe this then simply read the following.

Luke 1:6 - And they were both righteous before G-d, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How were they righteous before G-d? By walking in ALL the COMMANDMENTS and ORDINANCES. If you don't think this is what Paul taught that's fine. But then the problem you should have is with Paul because obviously Yeshua taught in this wise. If Paul did not then who should you be following? I'm not saying Paul is not teaching this. I'm saying that even if he wasn't you should follow Yeshua. Paul is simply not understood because people assume that when he says "law" they automatically equate that to the entirety of Torah.

Romans 2:26 - Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

"the uncircumcision" is a reference to the gentiles who weren't circumcised. Those who were circumcised were YAH's covenant people. That was the mark in flesh of the covenant. One should note that there were many "strangers" in the land who were counted as Israelites. Paul is saying that if they keep the righteousness of the law then they will be treated as Israelites. Paul was not trying to segregate them into this notion of Jews over here and Gentiles over there and we're all doing different things. That is not true. He knew the law. He knew about the process of conversion. He knew about adoption into Israel (Romans 11). He argued against circumcision because it was a hardship for them, because it was the mark of the FIRST covenant (not the second), and because IT WASN'T NECESSARY. It was necessary if they wanted to take part in passover.

Exodus 12:48 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to YHWH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

There were sojourners who could follow YHWH without becoming an Israelite. But if they wanted to keep passover they basically had to become one. The nation didn't just include "homeborn" Israelites but also those who sojourned with them the same way that Abraham had been a sojourner amoung the Canaanites.

So what about grace? Grace was given by YHWH in the form of the sacrificial system. But that system was just a symbolic placeholder. The sacrifice did not "go away". It was fulfilled when Yeshua became that sacrifice. And so he stands in the place of that animal that stood in the place of Isaac. He sacrificed himself so that those who believe in his sacrifice and who REPENT can be saved from their sin and its consequences. Yes, Paul needed a savior just like we all do when we break the law. The provision of the law for salvation was Yeshua. Salvation is of the law. That's why Yeshua said:

John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

In other words, he was a fulfillment of the animal sacrifice that covered people's sins. Because of the blood of the lamb the wrath of YHWH "passed over" his people. It testifies of him all day but it does not say that the sacrifice destroys the law. The sacrifice was only necessary because the law was broken. If you're not breaking the law then you're not sinning. If you're not sinning you don't need Yeshua at all. But because of faulty logic and misreading, tradition has taught us that we can do whatever we think is right in our own eyes, ignore the judgment of the Most High, consider ourselves sinners in need of a savior but not in need of repentance. What people do today is the same thing the Israelites did way back when they thought they could simply offer a multitude of sacrifices to pay for their sins like how you would pay bills.

Isaiah 1:11 - To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith YHWH: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Neither does YHWH delight in the blood of Yeshua. The point they were missing is that they were supposed to obey. To obey is better than sacrifice. Yeshua came to bring us back into obedience to YHWH which is righteousness.

1 John 3
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of G-d was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of G-d doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of G-d. 10 In this the children of G-d are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of G-d, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

[Zealot X]

Why are you guys of the Hebrew Israelite denomination so caught up in the flesh - OT, OT, OT. Have you guys ever been effected by that which is spiritual?

1) OT is not "the flesh". You must not have read it. And if you were alive back then in the OT would you have no mind for spiritual things because the NT wasn't written yet? I suggest you actually read the OT so that you can see that spirituality didn't begin with the ministry of Yeshua. Have I been effected by the spiritual? MANY TIMES. My life is a product of spirituality, and the teaching of the holy spirit.

2) Do miracles happen? Yes. So do coincidences and also things that are a result of the body's own healing and regenerative abilities. Many supposed miracles are scams and programmed responses used to make the audience belive in the church.

3) speaking in tongues, the way you have been taught is unsupported by scripture and is a gimmick used to fool you into thinking that the presence of the spirit is in your church.

4) visions? Yes. But I can only speak for myself personally.

5) sick among us... first there would have to be sick among us. I haven't been part of a congregation where anyone was seriously ill in the first place. Of course people in Christianity die of illness all the time. It's simply not made a big deal of. Nobody remembers the prayers that didn't work. My father died a couple months ago. He was in church, said he wasn't feeling well, pastor prayed for him, and he died that evening while cutting the grass. I'm not saying prayers don't work in Christianity but what I am saying is that its really not evidence unless you consider the times it doesn't work as evidence also.

6) are there white people? Yes. There are white Israelites. In fact, here is a youtube video of a white woman saying that we are Israelites and apologizing for slavery. I find it VERY interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuDNfoDUNQc&feature=email
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4J_WZhJ7I&feature=email

7) Do you guys believe in the resurrection of the dead? Most of us do. There are non-messianic Israelites who do not. Israelites are not a religion. The same way the Israelites had sects then we still have that today where do not all agree on everything.

8) Do you sing songs? Yes. However, if you're asking what we sing that is personal to different Israelites and different groups. The congregation I was a part of before I left had songs that they made up themselves. I don't remember the titles. We also sung reggae songs together (mostly Bob Marley). There are also Israelite singers, rappers, poets, and musicians. Music for us, at least in congregational settings (speaking of groups I have personally seen, not all Israelite groups/sects) tends to be more "African" (although a bad term) with such drums and singing.

9) Do you dance for joy? Again, that's personal. I do not personally dance for joy. I do not personally dance as an expression of my emotions. Just because David danced doesn't mean everyone did or that everyone was musical as he was or that everyone has to.

10) prophecies have a tendency of being more personal as well because things that concern everyone have already been prophesied. Many people have had personal prophesies. There have been a few Israelites who have gone on youtube and shared prophesies but I don't necessarily believe them and never committed what they said to memory. One of the prophecies that personally affected me was made by a brother at my last congregation who basically had a dream involving the congregation which included my departure. That happened. There's a few other things that are too personal to me so if you'll excuse me I wont be sharing them.

The main reason why more isn't shared with you is because there is a urgency and perception of what it is that you NEED. Some things are purely a matter of asking. If someone asks about a congregation I'll tell them but I don't just go around volunteering information or personal experiences. This is especially true when it seems like people are being deceived. When people around you are being deceived your moved to oppose and expose that deception. These guys here are basically on a mission. I was simply asked to come here. I wouldn't say that it is my mission to teach the law to Black Preachers. So I speak on a number of different threads, not all that have to do with the same subject. But I can't deny that Christianity has been deceived in a number of ways which actually causes iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2). But I am a little more "Wait and see" with people. If I see someone who have a righteous-seeking spirit, who loves G-d, and who wants to do right with the right motivation then that's who I reach out to. No offense, but most people on this site simply have no hope of coming to the truth. And its not because I think anyone here is unintelligent or anything like that. It's mainly because everyone thinks they already have the truth and this makes them arrogant and unable to hear anything that they do not already agree with-which is usually what they have already been taught.


"share with the board how God deals with you guys mightily."

How about I copy and paste my testimony? I have done it on another site. I just don't go around talking about myself. It doesn't mean that what YAH has done for me isn't important. It's important to me. But when I share I usually like to talk about the things that people need to hear and not put myself out there to be judged and scrutinized when its not about me. It's about YHWH. When one is preaching or teaching his word it can involve self as an example but there are are examples already provided to us that we should all share and hold in high esteem. And I guess, these questions are just not things I care that much about to know about other people. I don't really care what songs you sing because I'm not judging you by your songs. I don't really need you to be a prophet or anything else. And I really don't care what goes on in your church because your church is not a ship that can save you. To me its all personal. You should have a PERSONAL relationship with G-d. But I don't require that I know it. It's for you. What I care is that YHWH's teachings are heard and applied and that people who say they are following the messiah are actually doing that. Because that is what will change this world. No amount of singing or miraculous healing will prevent the diseases, social injusticies, and wickedness that then have to be healed. This world is incredibly wicked. My focus is on changing that reality, not singing happy songs and dancing for joy while others are crying, raped, murdered, robbed, tortured, sexually molested, cheated on, just plain cheated, lied about, lied to, manipulated, corrupted, starving, drinking water that kills them, etc. etc. etc. But that's just me personally and I have seen no gospel where Yeshua breaks out into a holy ghost jig. I'm just saying...


Shalom

[newview]

1) OT is not "the flesh". You must not have read it. And if you were alive back then in the OT would you have no mind for spiritual things because the NT wasn't written yet? I suggest you actually read the OT so that you can see that spirituality didn't begin with the ministry of Yeshua. Have I been effected by the spiritual? MANY TIMES. My life is a product of spirituality, and the teaching of the holy spirit.

*****You don’t believe that God dealt with natural Israel naturally than He does with the Church (spiritual Israel)? Look at how Jesus turned the OT rules inside out.
I think Jesus raised the OT covenant rules to higher and very spiritual plain.
And that’s on a lot of issues.


2) Do miracles happen? Yes. So do coincidences and also things that are a result of the body's own healing and regenerative abilities. Many supposed miracles are scams and programmed responses used to make the audience belive in the church.

*****You don’t have to bring up the scams - I know they are out there.
And why bring up coinkydinks? Give me some real miracles. There is a reason why I ask about things that cant be explained. So please share.



3) speaking in tongues, the way you have been taught is unsupported by scripture and is a gimmick used to fool you into thinking that the presence of the spirit is in your church.

*****What is the way I have been taught?
And do you guys speak in tongues - whether its to foreign people or with the tongues of angels speaking to God? Do you guys do that?

4) visions? Yes. But I can only speak for myself personally.

*****Please share.


5) sick among us... first there would have to be sick among us. I haven't been part of a congregation where anyone was seriously ill in the first place.

*****Well - that’s a blessing.


Of course people in Christianity die of illness all the time. It's simply not made a big deal of.

******Yes that’s true. But are you saying that in your religion no one has ever died of illnesses.
What did they die from - ONLY old age or car crashes, or stab wounds or suicides?
Yeah in our religion - people die all over this world from their illnesses and they die from being martyred. And get this some have died from their sicknesses and been raised from the dead. Do you guys have that testimony?
But since you guys never have ANY major illnesses - I guess you don’t need utilized the instructions of the apostle James. But tell me this - if needs be will you guys have the elders anoint the sick so that they can be healed or you just don’t believe in that sort of thing?

Nobody remembers the prayers that didn't work.

******That’s not true - Christians weep and question God all of the time when they remember asking for something in prayer and it did not take place. But that is not an odd thing since even David and Job and a whole host of other OT saints remembered and questioned the Lord when He did not answer the way they wanted.

My father died a couple months ago. He was in church, said he wasn't feeling well, pastor prayed for him, and he died that evening while cutting the grass.

******First I would like to say I am sorry for your lost….
Why didn’t your pastor anoint him with oil as the scriptures instruct the elders to do when those that are ill in the assembly get ill? Do you think he will do things differently now?


I'm not saying prayers don't work in Christianity but what I am saying is that its really not evidence unless you consider the times it doesn't work as evidence also.

******You know that Christians have their prayers answered
Yeah Jesus is working miracles all of the time in the Christian faith.
If it seems that He is not - I think we don’t wait long enough for God. The more impatient we are the more we miss out on a lot of blessings. But our God still is in the miracle business. I think during the tribulation Christians will be utilizing the Lords skills in a more personal way for sure.

Another thing I think we do is forget about all of the prayers we ask and forgot and about that He has indeed answered. Oh boy - I can remember asking the Lord for something so long that I stopped asking and looked back how He indeed answered my prayer maybe a couple of years later. So that’s what I think would be beneficial for Christians - to look back at the prayers we forgot that we prayed and the Lord answered them in His time which turned out to be a very good time to answer them.


6) are there white people? Yes. There are white Israelites. In fact, here is a youtube video of a white woman saying that we are Israelites and apologizing for slavery. I find it VERY interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuDNfoDUNQc&feature=email
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4J_WZhJ7I&feature=email

*****I don’t get it.
That lady is a ‘white’ Black Hebrew Israelite or is she a white lady that wants to be a Black Hebrew Israelite or is she dating a Black Hebrew Israelite or is she a member of your assembly and she actually sits there as you guys talk about how black people are Gods chosen people?
And if any of the above is true - does a white person who wants to be saved need to believe that black people are God’s chosen people before they can be saved?


7) Do you guys believe in the resurrection of the dead? Most of us do. There are non-messianic Israelites who do not. Israelites are not a religion. The same way the Israelites had sects then we still have that today where do not all agree on everything.

*****No, I am only speaking of the Black Hebrew Israelites that are ‘saved’.
So you are saying - all of the ones that believe in Yahshua believe in the resurrection of the dead?


8) Do you sing songs? Yes. However, if you're asking what we sing that is personal to different Israelites and different groups. The congregation I was a part of before I left had songs that they made up themselves. I don't remember the titles. We also sung reggae songs together (mostly Bob Marley). There are also Israelite singers, rappers, poets, and musicians. Music for us, at least in congregational settings (speaking of groups I have personally seen, not all Israelite groups/sects) tends to be more "African" (although a bad term) with such drums and singing.

******Do you guys sing songs to Yahshua - specifically? Do you pray to Him?

9) Do you dance for joy? Again, that's personal. I do not personally dance for joy. I do not personally dance as an expression of my emotions. Just because David danced doesn't mean everyone did or that everyone was musical as he was or that everyone has to.

*****I don’t think everyone has to dance either. And if they did - I don’t think they will all be doing a cha-cha buckling kind of thing. I love to see saints dance moved by the holy spirit but within their own culture. And some people don’t dance. Or if they do its in the privacy of their home or in their prayer closet. I didn’t say that you had to - I am just trying to get a feel for your services…were they joyful or more like lessons being taught in a class.

10) prophecies have a tendency of being more personal as well because things that concern everyone have already been prophesied. Many people have had personal prophesies. There have been a few Israelites who have gone on youtube and shared prophesies but I don't necessarily believe them and never committed what they said to memory. One of the prophecies that personally affected me was made by a brother at my last congregation who basically had a dream involving the congregation which included my departure. That happened. There's a few other things that are too personal to me so if you'll excuse me I wont be sharing them.

*****Ok

The main reason why more isn't shared with you is because there is a urgency and perception of what it is that you NEED. Some things are purely a matter of asking. If someone asks about a congregation I'll tell them but I don't just go around volunteering information or personal experiences. This is especially true when it seems like people are being deceived. When people around you are being deceived your moved to oppose and expose that deception. These guys here are basically on a mission. I was simply asked to come here. I wouldn't say that it is my mission to teach the law to Black Preachers. So I speak on a number of different threads, not all that have to do with the same subject. But I can't deny that Christianity has been deceived in a number of ways which actually causes iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2). But I am a little more "Wait and see" with people. If I see someone who have a righteous-seeking spirit, who loves G-d, and who wants to do right with the right motivation then that's who I reach out to. No offense, but most people on this site simply have no hope of coming to the truth. And its not because I think anyone here is unintelligent or anything like that. It's mainly because everyone thinks they already have the truth and this makes them arrogant and unable to hear anything that they do not already agree with-which is usually what they have already been taught.

*****We of the Christian faith are lost but Black Hebrew Israelites have the goods and you are here to share teach so that we can be saved? Well I guess that’s fair - because even amongst us believers in Jesus - we don’t all agree on the same things but we share what we believe and know hoping that it will help in each others journey here or even salvation.


"share with the board how God deals with you guys mightily."

How about I copy and paste my testimony? I have done it on another site. I just don't go around talking about myself. It doesn't mean that what YAH has done for me isn't important. It's important to me. But when I share I usually like to talk about the things that people need to hear and not put myself out there to be judged and scrutinized when its not about me. It's about YHWH. When one is preaching or teaching his word it can involve self as an example but there are are examples already provided to us that we should all share and hold in high esteem. And I guess, these questions are just not things I care that much about to know about other people. I don't really care what songs you sing because I'm not judging you by your songs. I don't really need you to be a prophet or anything else. And I really don't care what goes on in your church because your church is not a ship that can save you. To me its all personal. You should have a PERSONAL relationship with G-d.



But I don't require that I know it. It's for you. What I care is that YHWH's teachings are heard and applied and that people who say they are following the messiah are actually doing that. Because that is what will change this world. No amount of singing or miraculous healing will prevent the diseases, social injusticies, and wickedness that then have to be healed. This world is incredibly wicked. My focus is on changing that reality, not singing happy songs and dancing for joy while others are crying, raped, murdered, robbed, tortured, sexually molested, cheated on, just plain cheated, lied about, lied to, manipulated, corrupted, starving, drinking water that kills them, etc. etc. etc. But that's just me personally and I have seen no gospel where Yeshua breaks out into a holy ghost jig. I'm just saying...

******I don’t know where Jesus broke out in a Holy Ghost jig either but I bet He was joyful and I was wondering if you guys were joyful in during your assemblies. But we do have Psalms to tell us about singing and dancing in the Lord.
I just wondered if you always talked about black this and OT ordinances that. I just wondered if there was any joy.
Because we have been saved from the curse of the Law and that’s a joyful thing indeed.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

A funny thing is that in the ancient Hebrew culture, the was no such thing as the term "coincidence". Nothing just happened for them. They understood that life was fully by design. The miraculous is a design that is beyond the power and understanding of normal men. Face the facts.....

[newview]

A funny thing is that in the ancient Hebrew culture, the was no such thing as the term "coincidence". Nothing just happened for them. They understood that life was fully by design. The miraculous is a design that is beyond the power and understanding of normal men. Face the facts.....

Wow, Bro Trevor - you are on a ROLE !!!!!

What you posted is at the heart of this thread I started....Its exactly my point.
Its seems that the doctrine of the B H Israelites is so NOT spiritual/miraculous/from eternity.
It seems so natural/of the flesh/and very OT/lacking the NT light.

Very good.