Salvation is it eternal regardless of the circumstances or not come on lets get everyone’s opinion

But what is your take on what would have happened if the prodigal son or anyone who had received salvation backslides by rejecting the Father, His Son, the Holy Ghost and totally turned away from the faith and DIED without having repented or had the opportunity to return to the fold. Would that person be heading for hell or heaven? This is a conversation that came up with a couple of my work colleague when we were in an after discussion on Luke 15:11-32 so I would be interested in having a discussion and receiving everyone's point of view.

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One of the over-arching challenge to the body of Christ is a sincere distortion of doctrine. Salvation is the most simple and yet contentious issue to us. Our Lord view it like to drink water, or eat food, the least things we can do.No wonder salvation is non-meritorious. The merit of salvation  is to the Lord, Jesus Christ, the object of our faith. Salvation of the soul is the starting point of Christianity. And there are specific Scriptures that refers to it. When you mention a word like love, i shook my head. New born baby cannot understand words nor practice Love. Love ( personal and impersonal love) is the fruit of the Holy Spirit, an evidence of spiritual maturity, or adulthood. Salvation can be analogous to registration or admission to a school. Salvation is the starting point of spiritual life journey. After a person exercise faith alone in Christ alone, that person has for the first time entered the plan of God for his life. Salvation can be positional ( union with Christ), experiential ( daily walk with God), and Ultimate ( when the soul spirit and body  is made perfect), Sound doctrinal orientation would expose a serious Bible Student to various categories of Scripture. The same procedure can be applicable to administration of drugs or medication. A drug doesn't treat all sickness or disease.  

Besides, there are other points you raised which i won't comment on, unless you show positive volition, or you are curious to know.

Yes your basing your whole point and belief around a new born.

 

I mean if it is that simple then why go into being a Bible student? The answer: Because there is more to it than a simple explanation of which you offered.

 

In the OT Israel was required to follow and then do what was asked. There were serious consequences for not following through on many things and today there are serious consequences even in the NT for not following through, which is my point, there is a lot more to salvation than just a simple "I believe."

 

Salvation is more of a thing of trusting in the Lord with all of your heart than a simple "I believe." Your making a statement that is not even scriptural when you say "Salvation can be analogous to registration or admission to a school," which to me is how I would define sincere distortion of doctrine.

 

You do realize that evil can only prosper when God's people do nothing? I call them God's people because they do little except "believe." In fact studies show that it is about 4-6% of the body that does 90% of the work. The reason they do not do more is because they believe they do not need to do any more.

 

If one turns their life over to God through Jesus the reaction will be considerable different from one that "Just believes." It used to be taught that salvation was turning your life over to God though Jesus. When that is accomplished then they are dead to self and will seek God for what they are supposed to do. Attitudes will be totally different. There will be signs of a brokenness and humbling from one that truly has given his or her life to God. 

 

I read the tracks that are published. In fact we have some from 40 years ago plus that do state that it is about turning your life over to God. Today we see tracks about the four spiritual laws and the bottom line is that it is about believing one is saved? That does not mean they have turned their life over to God, Jesus or anyone else.

 

What concerns me is even with Billy Graham who will admit that nearly 95% of the people that come forward fall away in the first two years. They fall away because they have not been raised. My bigger point is if we are responsible for teaching them and do not teach them and they fall away who is responsible? Billy Graham seems to believe that they are not responsible. They feel it is the churches job. Either way it causes a mess and damages the person that has fallen away. That should not be considered salvation?

 

I am still not exactly sold on the concept of Christianity being the right path for several reasons. One of them is it would have made Jesus a heretic. Secondly which has to do with the first reason is God's words are eternal, which should tell someone that Jesus came and gave His life so that all could be grafted into the promise. Third reason is there are more than 20,000 sects of Christianity and we all know that division is of the devil. Fourth reason, all 20,000 sects believe sort of differently what it takes to be a "Christian." Fifth to be a Christian does not mean that one needs to represent the love and will of God. Sixth reason is if Paul who said there is no longer Jew or gentile then it meant there should not be Christians, because he was talking about anyone taking on a label. Seventh reason is a "Christian" is not required to honor the commandments or be led by the Holy Spirit or even overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the words of their testimony to be a "Christian, nor is it required that a "Christian" love one another. Which sort of comes up with ten reasons? Maybe? 

 

What is a "Christian?" What does it take to be a "Christian?" Why didn't Jesus or any of the apostles tell people to be a "Christian?" I have heard it explained that a "Christian follows Christ" or is a follower of Christ, but if Jesus had no will except the will of the Father, then it should be about following the Father. Is a name really important?

 

The other thing really interesting is you personally hold a belief that you can answer someone or choose not to when scripture clearly says that if a brother or sister comes and asks anything, give it to them. It is a matter of respect and a matter of accountability to answer questions, because honestly and I am not picking on you, you started the discussion looking for how people view salvation and all you have done is tell me that I am in error for viewing things as I do.

 

Assuming you are a Christian that means that Christians do not have to respect the other persons comments even if they were requested? I respected your question, please respect my questions? Is Christianity not based on equality? I guess go figure?

Through the grace of God I hope to answer most of your concerns and doubt about being a Christian. First, according to Scripture, one can only be saved once. However, after salvation is a rigorous spiritual exercise of choosing to grow from babyhood to spiritual maturity. This demand a pastor-teacher who has been prepared, the teacher must not only be oriented to the original languages of Scripture, but be led by the Holy Spirit. And must teach systemically, precept by precept, line by line. If the believer is positive to doctrinal truth and its correct application, he or she will experience spiritual growth. But if the new born has not been given first milk, his growth will be hindered. If the new born is negative, not hungry for spiritual food he may fall away. That the person experience spiritual ship wreck does not cancel his salvation. If he is really saved, by faith alone in Christ alone, then  leave judgment to God who knows those who are his. Poor doctrinal orientation is to be blamed not only for believers who are negative to the plan of God, but also shared by false teaching by unprepared pastors and teachers. Your doubt about certain claims by Jesus Christ is not particularly experienced by you, this underlines the importance of learning so that our faith will not weaver, remember we still possess old sin nature. Yes, God's Word is eternal, which means it has always existed, and the eternal Word is God, that came in the world, became flesh, named Jesus Christ. You may not know that Jesus on several occasions in the O.T appeared to some people in various ways. Divisions sometimes may not be the work of the devil, but our sin nature. And never in Scripture did it say that believers will have same approach or method to ministry, however, the Bible emphasizes on one faith, one Lord, one baptism, one Father, etc. Please love is the evidence of spiritual growth, it is not automatic, nonetheless, no one would be made perfect here, we still carry our failures, this is why we live by grace. No Jew or Gentile doesn't mean that we won't have different races, rather, the divide of old between the two has been broken by the Lord, Jesus Christ, we are one in him. Holy Spirit leading is a daily experience which comes as a result of obedience. The blood and the testimony refers to the moment of ones salvation, with allusion to the finished work of Christ on the cross. Please my friend, this scripture does not refer to the funny testimonies we hear from believers today, this is one of those challenges caused by ignorant. All it takes to be a Christian is to hear the correct gospel of salvation, ex; Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16, etc. It is not true that both Christ and his Apostles did not ask people to become Christians.That would have diminished the work of the great commission. In addition, Jesus said, if you have seen me you have seen the Father, for the Father lives in the Son. The Father and the Holy Spirit are invisible, only the Son in Hypostatic union (two nature in One) can be seen. Don't forget, in the divine plan the humanity of the Son came to fulfill the plan of the Father, of course there is one God in Essence who reveals Himself in Three persons.

Besides, if we ask question in humility it s understandable, but when the person choose to argue and dispute it becomes sometime else. I mean that there are rules and orders. Learning demands humility or authority orientation. If we disagree that means one is wrong or both. That does not negate the fact that truth is one, absolute. However, i am looking for those who are interested in learning and sharing. For I believe God has blessed me with Truth, the mind of Christ, the voice of the Holy Spirit

Finally, i guess you are confusing salvation with spiritual growth, which is a process. One may be saved but is not broken. It is the process of truth academic discipline that would liberate the believer as he lives in obedience daily.. In a nutshell, SALVATION IS A POSITIONAL TRUTH, BUT CHARACTER OF THE MIND RENOVATION IS A PROCESS.  .

Your making several doctrinal statements that really are not there. For example there is no where you will find that Jesus told people to become a Christian. It is simply not there. Neither do the apostles tell anyone to be a Christian. The closet it comes is when Paul was talking to King Agripa where the king said in mocking Paul that Paul wanted him to become a Christian. 

 

There are two paths one can possible go down. One path is based on the belief that Jesus came to start a new religion called Christianity and the second path is one where He came so that all could be grafted into the promise and both paths will take a person in a different direction. As far as people overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the words of our testimony, does connect to where it says that we eat from the fruit of our lips, which is not a single instance. God created everything with His words and not His hands. We bring the future and what type of future it is by what we confess.

Well by your words "However, i am looking for those who are interested in learning and sharing. For I believe God has blessed me with Truth, the mind of Christ, the voice of the Holy Spirit," your saying two things first your the one with the truth and secondly the other person is not hearing from the Holy Spirit.

 

You also make a statement close to what I said when you said, "First, according to Scripture, one can only be saved once. However, after salvation is a rigorous spiritual exercise of choosing to grow from babyhood to spiritual maturity." I mean you do realize that 93% of the body did not follow through as you said? So what happens when a person is not taught? That is what I am saying there is far more to it then just saying a prayer and then going on with ones life, but today that is what is considered to be salvation.

Jesus was sent and we are to take over where He left off, which is to destroy the works of the devil. Anyway your coming from a position where the new born is going to do this or that or get the training or learn and what I am saying is that most do not get that. I am saying the focus out there is not bringing people to maturity, it is based on them saying a prayer and then giving them a Bible. It is very much like saying to a baby, ok now your a human being so get walk and then run. The kid just sits there and looks at you like you fell on your head.

 

On the one side I have the church of Christ that believes that God doesn't talk to anyone because the Bible is there. On the other hand we have Catholics that still seem to believe that the power of God is held in the priesthood and if it is not done through the priesthood it should be question if it is a genuine work of the Holy Spirit. Today in going to most churches you will have pastors talking about a scripture and how someone else did something, but that pastor doesn't have the experience to come in out of the rain and yes that is probably a little overstated, but it is true. 

 

Jesus made it clear. He did not say that you belong to Him by a prayer. He said they will know that you are mine by your love one for the other. I maintain most anyone can teach and preach and even do a miracle here or there, but that does not mean they actually love. We live in a time where these pastors write all of these books, but honestly all he is teaching someone is that what it takes to make it in ministry is to write a bunch of books, because the pastors and teachers are supposed to be the example.

 

I try very hard for the body to become involved in just accomplishing one thing let alone a bunch of things. Let's take ending starvation. Each day some 14,000 starve to death not because there are too many people and a lack of food, the earth produces enough food to see that everyone is fed. Yes there is a large cost to feed that many people, but here is a fact, if every man, woman and child gave just $10 per month, we could end starvation. We don't end starvation, because it is more fun to teach and preach. Saving a starving child does not sell a book or pay for a TV station. People starve to death for one reason and one reason alone, which is a lack of love in the body of Christ. Imagine on judgment day we could all face God and say "well at least we ended starvation."

 

So are you saying that all those without love are saved? I mean they do call themselves Christians.

My dear, thank you for your good piece. However, i would like to remind you that no one can end starvation,that idea is like a day-dream. If starvation ends it implies we are already in heaven. There will always be suffering in this devil's world. I know you are concerned about the plight of the poor, but they we will always have in our midst. Starvation or hardship is never an excuse for rejecting the gospel. Many experienced the worse case scenario and yet they believe and were saved, example, the story of Lazarus and the rich man in the Gospel.

You kept on emphasizing on this love premise. I  think you are defining it narrowly. Don't forget that LOVE is the Fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is a process, many saved people may not get there, meaning they may fail to grow spiritually. Nonetheless, this failure does not endanger their eternal salvation. In heaven there will be inequality, there will be loser believers as well as winner believers. Rewards will be apportioned according to how a believer executed his spiritual life. That is why we have in the Bible the phrases such as the vessels of honor and dishonor, or of wood, hay, straw, gold, silver, and precious stone, Again, salvation experience is a one shot event in any person's life, but spirituality is a daily occurrence. Obedience to God's plan after salvation is the prerequisite to a healthy Christian living. Furthermore, as long as we are in this part of the heaven, there will always be doctrinal controversies, but one thing is indisputable, Christ, and Him crucified, for our sin. 

You seem to have problem with none issue such as the word " christian". What your problem is, i don't know. Old Testament believers never knew that phrase, neither did they have anything to do with the word "church". Nonetheless, they were saved, and right now are in heaven. Irrespective of the theological argument about it, i know some believers prefer to be called disciples, that's fine, no problem about it. The key point is if one has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as his or her only Savior.

Further more,  it is good to support programs that alleviate peoples' suffering, but that may not be an evidence of a healthy spiritual life, nor a sign of one's salvation. Don't forget unbelievers equally do the same good.

Finally, at the moment of salvation, Agape Love is a potential but may not become a reality in the lives of many saved people.

 

Great points AMECHI GODSON

 

Religion tries to make salvation an almost impossible dream with never ending stipulations and interpretations. I can visualize Jesus trying to explain to Pharisees that "He is the Way." It is my experience that the body of Christ struggles with the word Disobedience and Christian being in the same sentence. I appreciate the very fine way that you've responded and applaud you for taking the time to do so. Amen....

Would you agree that salvation is having the heart of God?

 

If salvation is having the heart of God and God's heart is not to have starvation take place, then your confession "i would like to remind you that no one can end starvation,that idea is like a day-dream," is not of God but of devils, because scripture says that we can do all things through Christ. So what your telling people and teaching people is to forget scripture?That makes you a god unto yourself.

 

Now for those that do not understand, tell us where "Christianity," came from. Where does the word come from and where does it say in scripture, because that is what we should go by, that we should be "Christians?"

 

 

 

 

My dear, you points of argument amuses me sometimes. Try to do ALL things and see how woeful and miserable you gonna be. People quote and apply Scripture off its spiritual and original meaning. The science of Scriptural warns against telling Scripture to say what you want.

Christ did not come to white-wash the devil's world. He came to save the souls of people, in preparation for an eternal kingdom. In this world we will face suffering and unfairness. In Christ days on earth, some wanted him to lead a revolution, and white-wash the devil's kingdom, but he was not distracted.

Nevertheless, operation fight hunger can be fought by both Christians and non Christians alike. I wish i have what it takes to embark upon it. For i have seen the worse case scenario of hunger in Africa. It has been in mind that one day i could be in a position to assist. But i do not loose sight of my core heavenly calling, to reach the world with the gospel of my Lord and personal Savior, Jesus Christ.

I told you earlier that it seems you have problem with the word, Christian". Fine Bible scholars understand the context of it, and its implications. I think there are many others issues philosophers and other great scholars wrestle a lot with the Bible.

If any member of the human race hears the gospel and believe in Christ, that person instantly becomes a son of God, a disciple, a christian, a believer, etc. There's nothing absolutely wrong with these nomenclature.

Finally, what do you mean, 'the heart of God?' May be you are saying the spirit or the nature of God coming to be in us, at the moment of salvation. If so, fine. However, know it that the new born still has his old nature, and would still act it out, unless he embarks upon a process of renovation of the soul complex.

 

God is love and if we have the heart of God then we will love all. We will want to see that all have something to eat, a safe place to sleep, clothes to wear, to care for the sick and those in prison.

 

All power and authority were given to Jesus and when He ascended that power and authority was passed to us, but that also means that we are responsible for what happens on earth, which is why it is written that we can do all things through Christ. Those that have and ear let them hear.

 

It is not just about ending starvation, but to bring God's love and will to all on earth and if people follow God's love, covenants, commandments, statutes and ordnances, then starvation can be dealt with as they are works of the devil. One of the missions of Jesus was to destroy the works of the devil and as that was one of His missions, should we take on His life and love, then it becomes one of our missions as well. The bride takes on the work of the groom in His absence. It is how we are judged if we have been faithful to the groom, which is really salvation to do so. Then again we can take our lives back and do what we want to do, but salvation is to take on the life of the groom and the work of the groom out of love and respect.

 

As far as "Christianity" is concerned, we all know that division is not of God, but of Satan and as we also should have learned that in Christianity there are more than 20,000 different sects of Christianity, which was all based on Jesus words to Peter, "upon this rock I will build my church." It has always been the Christians view that the rock was Peter which is why he was made to be the first pope, but Jesus was talking about was the relationship that Peter had with Jesus, which was love. Upon this rock of love, I will build my church. It is why Jesus said, "they will know that you are mine, by your love one for the other," but a part of that love is to love our neighbor as ourselves as well as even love our enemies.

 

It is not what people think that there are too many people and too little food. There is enough food on earth the feed everyone. But food is used as a weapon to destroy people especially women as women are at risk more than men. It is only because women can bring life either on earth or in the body of Christ, which is why we are the bride of Christ. It is not about leading people to Jesus to be dropped off, but about raising His children, caring for all.

Thanks Rev Watson, drop me a line anytime you want. The truth is that through the power of God in love and being in agreement that anything we touch and agree to in His name, will be done.

 

The most affective way to change the planet is simply for each individual in the body of Christ to learn what they have been called to do and then walk with each other to accomplish Gods will which in part is to deal with starvation, homelessness, disease, and those in prison as they are all works of the devil.

 

Jesus did not leave us to be victims but gave us through love and unity or agreement the very power of God to fix it. It is why He gave His life and because of that I lay down my own life.

I don't think I ever said that I was a Christian.

To say one is a Christian means that Jesus came to start a new religion called Christianity, but I see it is that He came and gave His life so that all may be grafted into the promise.

 

Scholars will tell you for the most part that the word "Christian" came from devil worshipers, calling believers "Christians" in an attempt to mock them.

 

If Jesus came to start a New Religion called Christianity then God's Words would have been in error as all God's words are eternal. With the introduction of Christianity many things changed and many things were disrespected by early Christians, such as the commandments and the birthright going through the man and not the woman, when it was ordained by God that it is the woman that passes the birthright forward.

 

It is almost like we don't need that stuff in the Old Testament, that is unless we want to find a blessing or something, but then we say the rest of it is void even though God's words are eternal thus making Jesus the enemy of God, in creating Christianity.

 

I also am amazed that everyone walks around saying that division is of the devil, yet there are more that 20,000 sects of Christianity and 6,000 definitions of salvation.

 

And then I hear that God thinks it is alright that people starve to death?

 

I have not see this said, so I will say it. What happens on earth is a test for us to see if we really have God's heart, which is probably how God defines Salvation?

Christianity is not a religion but a relationship. To be a christian may look derogatory to the unbelievers, but God uses the foolish things to shame the wise of this world. By the way, christian means " Christ-like". What is wrong with that?

Christ came to fulfill the prophesies of Old Testament. Consequently, there are certain practices of O.T that has been rendered irrelevant. God revealed for a purpose, until the coming of the Messiah.

As long as we remain in this flesh there will always be some doctrinal controversies. We are still struggling with the old sin nature we have. It is a fight that will end when the Messiah return

Suffering which is a by-product of the fall of Adam will continue in this evil world, no one can eliminate it, try if you can.

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