But what is your take on what would have happened if the prodigal son or anyone who had received salvation backslides by rejecting the Father, His Son, the Holy Ghost and totally turned away from the faith and DIED without having repented or had the opportunity to return to the fold. Would that person be heading for hell or heaven? This is a conversation that came up with a couple of my work colleague when we were in an after discussion on Luke 15:11-32 so I would be interested in having a discussion and receiving everyone's point of view.
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Hello dear Angela,
I thank you for the points you raised in your post. It is absolutely true that we need to show love and compassion, especially when others disagree with our spiritual view point. However, this does not negate the fact that the scripture warns us against heresies, or false doctrines. And as a minister of the gospel, God would hold us responsible if we compromise on the truth in any given environment. Nevertheless, this we must do in a polite and respectful manner. In view of the fact that our doctrinal opponent could become our proponent later on.
Besides, that one called another names may not be motivated by hatred. In some situations the Word of God can rebuke harshly. Don't forget that Christ called the Pharisees names like, fox, white sepulcher, or even devil. Does it imply that he hates them? Absolutely not. He loves them and wants them to turn a new live.
A pastor or Bible communicator may be harsh on his audience, yet he loves and is compassionate towards them. Nonetheless, on the part of the audience it takes the virtue of humility to listen than to oppose the communicator. And also we should not forget that in God's economic, he has graciously blessed his imperfect family with different spiritual gifts. All are not called to the communication gift. Are they? Not at all.
Furthermore, we often emphasizes on love, which is the right thing, most of us a have negligible, low degree of this spiritual virtue. And We sincerely substitute or confuse this virtue with common or establishment love. The type of love both unbelievers as well as believers could practice.
Finally, over the years in life, I have learn this powerful spiritual principle, that it is not the man, but his message that counts. For we all have foot of clay. May the good Lord show us understanding be gracious to us all, amen.
I would think the definition of heresy is to preach other than what is there. I am not sure of the Spiritual gift of communication? The other thing in grievous error is that I do not belong to your church. You are not my teacher. Having said that then you do not have a right to talk harshly to me. You may talk to your congregation that way, granted, but not here and not with me you won't. One reason is, the only way one can know if they belong to Jesus is by our love one for the other.
Having said that, you have failed to show in scripture where it says specifically, "once saved always saved regardless of what one does or does not do." If you are preaching that, then you are in error again, because it does not say that in scripture. That is like saying that Jim Jones was saved after passing out the cool aide. There are numerous other examples where, "once saved always saved regardless of what one does or does not do."
What scripture does say is that, "those led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." It also says very clearly, "blessed are the peacemakers for they are the children of God." I also says that if we do not keep the commandments we do not love God and one of those commandments is keeping the Sabbath. When we decide that we do not keep the Sabbath or the commandments, we place ourselves above God and make a new set of rules to go by.
But the saddest thing in all of this, with all the ministers around and with all of the congregations affected, we could be working in love and unity to turn things around, because by faith we can do all things through Christ. I think it would be heresy to teach otherwise, but why we are not doing all things through Christ to end starvation and other problems is because we simply do not believe we can. That is not keeping the faith.
What is important are two things. One having a heart for God and secondly, having God's heart and if those to things are in line in a persons life they will be motivated by His heart to represent God's love and will to all people on earth. Nothing short of that will work. If we have God's heart we will be working to end starvation and deal with homelessness, sickness, disease and care for those in prison. Starvation, homelessness, sickness, disease and prisons are a representation of the work of the devil and the workers of iniquity. One is on one side of the fence or the other.
My heart is heavy though, because there should be enough people that have a heart for God to stand together against the work of the devil because Satan is but an angel and all power was taken away from Satan on the cross, that is unless we with our confession give it back to Satan. If we are in the body of Christ then we also have the ability like Jesus to stop the enemy. That is the faith. To work to do less is not having faith.
"Finally, over the years in life, I have learn this powerful spiritual principle, that it is not the man, but his message that counts." What matters is what one does in life. Anyone can talk a good game. WE do not have all foot of clay. It does not say that in scripture anywhere. I personally stand on the rock which is Jesus. There is no clay in any of that. It is a solid and stead fast footing. For I know in whom I have believed and that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that day.
hen we have fellowship together, we are given the gifts of Eye and Ear. We see that most hearts are white and black, before they listen to the Word of God. After that we see again, and see that the black become white, by the grace of God. We have been taught by GOD that "Salvation is to be approved by God, salvation should not be approved by man". Salvation is a precious gift from God for His elect. Not all followers have FAITH, faith is given by God to His chosen people. "The plants that are not planted by God will be rooted up". David said:"Make me understand LORD that I may live." It is true that only GOD gives us CORRECT understanding and that we may live. Jesus said;"You should be PERFECT, as your Father is PERFECT". We praise God for giving us a PERFECT EXAMPLE to follow. The Way of Life in Jesus is our TOTAL example to follow. We have lived in the HOLY WAY OF CHRIST for many years. We understand now Lord Jesus' Way of Life is to be our Way of Life to approach to our Holy Living FATHER in heaven, from Whom we have obtained LOTS of Mysteries of GOD. The unfaithful servants of GOD will NEVER be given anything from GOD. A man lives not from bread alone, but from the WORD coming out from the Mouth of GOD. Jesus said that the world will not see ME again, but you will see ME. It is true that whoever has been trained, taught and guided by the Spirit of Christ, they all belong to Christ. And all followers of Christ ARE ABLE TO SEE CHRIST in this life time.(JOHN 14:21/23) Jesus reveals to the faithful followers only who have been approved by GOD. A servant is to be faithful to his Master ONLY, a servant should never does anything that is not told by his Master. A servant who is always doing his own thing that is different from his Master, it is because he has other masters/gods that lead him; therefore all his followers will only follow him, they are no more in the group where Christ is. "My sheep hear My VOICE and they follow ME". The Dove, the Holy Spirit of GOD will enjoy where Christ is. The Dove will fly away where other VOICE that is different with Christ. Dear brothers and sisters in the LORD, How can they preach if they are not sent by GOD??? They will preach their own opinions and ideas, Christ said;"Whatever is out of a man is out of his heart, and it may defile people". Only the Holy Spirit of God can save a person's soul, all other spirits will only make the followers getting far and far and far away from GOD. for "your way is not MY WAY" saith The Lord of Hosts.
Actually I fully agree, who really knows the heart? We may be able to see conditions of the heart, but that is, I believe anyway that we can walk with the person and pray for them or even help them.
I had the opportunity to work at a old style rescue mission and it was rather traditional for the old pastor of the place to give an alter call every night and if the people responded they would get something to eat and a place to sleep. One could criticize the pastor, but it was the churches who funded the place that put pressure on the pastor to produce "sufficient results" to continue to fund the place. It was a bad problem and the pastor left and took over with new management and practices changed, where anyone that came to the place would get something to eat regardless. When the practices were changed peoples lives were turned around.
At least from what I believe, it is not just about producing good fruit, but having good fruit produced in those lives they touch as well. Salvation for whatever reason was reduced to what happened on the cross with Jesus and the thief, but had the thief lived on instead of died, can one say that he really got the point or not? Granted he got the point for the moment, but what about a year or two or even longer. It is not up to the thief to get it, but up to the church to get it so the thief even has half a chance.
Too many in the church are doing things that they have not been called to do. When that happens the church instead of being built on the rock is often built on quicksand where there is little or no stability. Often times Jesus is not allowed to put the stones where they should be and too often times the stones are not taught to stay there until Jesus moves them. Seminaries do not often teach that, because if they did, there would not be the need for the seminary to start with in many cases. The five fold gift ministry was created by God so that believers would no longer be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Scripture does not say that God created seminaries where created so that believers would not longer be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, but often time it is seminaries that come up with some of these doctrines that take people off track.
What is important out of any of this or all of this is that there really should be enough faith here that if we actually stood together and sought God for resolve, that we with all of this faith should be able to turn things around on earth. WE can do all things through Christ as long as our beliefs do not get in the way?
My Take was that there are many Doctrines of Salvation and I ascribe to one of them, Which is this (In Brief)
1. We are Saved by Grace through faith
2. Without Repentace there is no remission of sins
3. Baptism - Outward Symbol of Inward Change
4. Holy Spirit - Power above our Human Abilities
5. If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness
6. For GOD So love the World that he gave his only begotten so so that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Now you many not agree with this but this, and you may have a superior understanding or an inferior one as the case may be . However my point is while we argue Soteriology, another young man has just been shot, another one of our sisters on the choir gets pregnant , Another Divorce just happened in the CHURCH. While we argue the finer points of Soteriology, Children are being abused right under our noses, Pastors are selling out the Gospel for money. When shall we learn that Jesus did not come to argue Theology. He came so that we might have life and have it more abundantly, My comments came from growing up in a Church where the Purpose of Church was to "Get Saved" Nothing is wrong with that in and of itself but lets move on and use the Power of the Holy Ghost to revolutionize this world. We cant do that Theologically. We actually have to lay hands on the sick and they will recover. We have to love one another.
To your comment about my statement that does not concur with scripture, it all depends how you have interpreted my statement. If you are thinking that I am saying that one could loose their salvation, I am not saying that. Because the whole Idea of my statement is to say that I am not in the business of Soteriologial Assignments. I teach my Church that each person needs to be assured within himself that they are saved. I teach them to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling before GOD. I teach them to die daily and maintain a prayer life without ceasing unto the Lord! I teach them to repent of their sins, to receive the gift of the holy Ghost and to be Baptized in the precious name of Jesus. However after I have seen them do all that I am happy but understand that I do not make the Assignments for their name in the lambs book of Life. I am but a man that is trying to get in myself, far be it from me to assure you that you are all set. My Job is to make sure the people are reconciled to God so that they can hear his voice. My Voice means very little, My opinions on Soteriology means very little... I am just a servant of the Most high GOD. When you realize that maybe we could get together and do some work at the homeless shelters and run some programs for youth etc. Help the least among us
Well thank you as well,
I did not GO to seminary however that does not make me a novice, I can argue the finer points of Theology with the best of them and have read enough books to probably have a couple of Advanced Degrees. (lol) However I thank you for keeping these Ministers on their toes. What I am totally upset about is the prostitution of this Gospel for money ! It is so widespread do sickening and disgusting. I do not know how people stoop so low ! There is more I need to learn and clarify but as God is my witness if any one of these jokers come in my church and start with that mess, i am pulling them off the pulpit immediately. This seed sowing doctrine has reach levels of ridiculousness that its amazing that people believe them. I dont even need to read the Bible to see that its a mess !
I do see that one a lot, but also I do understand principles of witchcraft and the same thing is taught that they do get eternal life through Jesus, which may account why there is at time more witchcraft in the church than in the darkest of places.
Once again the biggest believer is Satan and he does have followers on earth. The only way to have eternal life is through Jesus, but scripture does not say that one will have eternal life with Jesus or even in heaven. It just says they will have eternal life. What theologians have done is assumed that it meant eternal life in heaven, but that is one of those things where a belief is there, but it does not say it in scripture.
Minor forms of witchcraft if is control and manipulation. Leading people in fear is one of those forms of manipulation. It happens far more then we like to think. Evangelists use fear all the time. Turn or burn gets people motivated, well at least enough to go forward in an alter call, manipulating ones feelings. Or how about manipulation where people get someone to pray for something attempting to control a situation?
Churches often control people to get them to stay in the church. Like if you leave you throwing away your salvation etc. When people stop going to a church the first thing people say is they have lost their faith. How about this one "the first sign of a person backsliding is that one stops going to church." How about control and manipulation when it comes to the offering plate. God wants us to build this building? Then again I have also seen the destruction in a person when one cannot for some reason pray or speak in tongues. Denominations use control and manipulation all the time suggesting they are the only ones that have the truth.
Ok Sarah so whats the point? Well to me it is really scary when controlling and manipulating people are supposedly leading people to Christ. The church sells more fear than love and joy. Ever go to an abortion clinic where protesters are screaming that they are baby killers and going to hell for doing so? There are a lot of examples of this stuff going on in the church all the time. And yet......... the ones staying in the church are telling themselves that they are having life and life more abundantly, but too scared to do anything or go anywhere, because if they do they might be backsliding.
I fully agree that Jesus is the gate which all must enter to approach God, but once inside the gate it is a a test of the condition of our hearts. Do we enter and take and take and take, then again do we enter and just give and give and give? Both are signs of manipulation, which came from some theological teaching somewhere. Think for a moment, "how many times have you seem people attempting to manipulate the power of God in the church, and yet we call that salvation."
I do know that there are three baptisms. The first is of water which is the symbol for God for the remission of sin, which comes from a person wanting to repent which also comes from God. They want to go a different way. Water baptisms happened even before Jesus came along. Secondly was the anointing, the symbol of which is oil and that of the Holy Spirit, which was limited to kings, prophets and priests. It was a covering to help the person operate as a king, prophet or priest. Last but certainly not least, there is the fire which is the symbol of Jesus and it is a fire that either burns from within or it just does not. One can tell about one who has this fire, which the fruit of that fire is always love one for the other. How we have a better covenant is because everyone can have all three, but that also makes each of us leaders and with that there is a higher accountability. Now the church because we like this ordination thing teaches that only certain ones are ordained. The proof of that is that the church only ordains a certain few (otherwise they would ordain everyone). That is a step of control and manipulation, because each of us are ordained by God if we have been baptized with, water, oil and fire. We, those that have been baptized with water, oil and fire are all ministers of the Gospel, in fact we are the fruit of that Gospel as we are living epistles. We are all ambassadors for Christ that has the very power of God to bind and loose. WE decide each day to further establish the kingdom of God here if we make each step we make claiming each step we make calling it Holy Ground.
Now granted with all this cool power and stuff, we also get to be responsible for what happens on earth. Jesus was given all power and authority in heaven and earth and the good groom shares all things with His bride and in His absence the good bride represents the groom in all things on earth, with His power and authority. The church has always taught that it was the ordained that held this power, which brings us back to control and manipulation because the church teaches one must be ordained. After all, once ordained we can be "a something," which is why we go to seminaries. My ordination is better than yours? huh?
I went into this all because one little change of this ordination, can send the body in a totally different direction than it perhaps was supposed to go. That being said, it is very possible that the church or those that run the church are more of the problem than the solution and of which we the leaders of the church if not all those on earth, we get to stand before God, naked and give account to what we have done or have not done. Have we continued with the deception or have we done everything we could to end the deception that we are all called and chosen of God and that we are all ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that we are all Ambassadors for Christ with the power of God to bind and loose?
I say that the walls of the church do two things, first it keeps people in and secondly the walls of the church keep people out. Either way both is a sin and should be avoided at all cost. The deceptions do not come from the enemy. All power was taken away from Satan at the cross. The only way Satan has any power is because we give him power with the fruit of our lips or what we speak. Even in the broadest definition of salvation it should not be taught that salvation is giving Satan power, for our Father did not create the heavens and the earth with His hands, but His words and Adam was created in God's very image and Jesus died so that we could be grafted into the promise and have and enjoy the relationship that Adam had with God, allowing us to walk with God and approach the throne of Grace, yet so few churches even teach this stuff.
Wisdom tells me we all should be begging for forgiveness.
FELLOW BELIEVERS, APOSTLE PAUL WRITING UNDER THE UNCTION OF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT CONCERNING WOMEN IN MINISTRY SAYS IN: 1 TIMOTHY 2:12; BUT I DO NOT ALLOW A WOMAN TO TEACH OR EXERCISE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, BUT TO REMAIN QUIET.
NOW SINCE GOD USE THIS ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE WRITER TO WARN AGAINST A WOMAN AUTHORITY IN THE LOCAL CHURCH, ON WHAT OTHER BASIS OF SCRIPTURE, IF ANY, IS A WOMAN TO FUNCTION IN THE SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OF A PASTOR. AS IS THE PRACTICE BY SOME CHURCHES? OR HAS GOD SENT FRESH REVELATION OR CLARIFICATION? SINCE THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY IN A LOCAL CHURCH IS THE PASTOR, WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE REVERED APOSTLE MEAN WHEN HE CAUTION AGAINST A WOMAN OVER STEEPING HER SPIRITUAL BOUNDARY? Please this is not a gender fight, but concerning scriptural order of authority. May the Lord grant us the understanding and wisdom to discuss this topic of authority in the local church.