Salvation is it eternal regardless of the circumstances or not come on lets get everyone’s opinion

But what is your take on what would have happened if the prodigal son or anyone who had received salvation backslides by rejecting the Father, His Son, the Holy Ghost and totally turned away from the faith and DIED without having repented or had the opportunity to return to the fold. Would that person be heading for hell or heaven? This is a conversation that came up with a couple of my work colleague when we were in an after discussion on Luke 15:11-32 so I would be interested in having a discussion and receiving everyone's point of view.

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I think in every christian practice, the Scripture, the Canon, the Standard, should be the compass, blueprint, to guide us, not culture, tradition, or bias act. That being the case, i doubt if Apostle Paul, under the guardian of the Holy Spirit has any illusion, or disillusion about women in ministry.Of course, in Paul's days there were women in ministry. But at what capacity or function in a local church? And that's what Paul, to me is trying to correct, address, or strengthen. It has nothing to do with gender bias, but divine Sovereignty. That there is no male or female does not imply that there is no system of authority.Omniscient God chose Paul to be the bearer of divine viewpoint. God knew all Paul would write, it seems to me that in your view God allowed Paul's human personality, culture, or any other factor to influence or dictate his style of epistles.Don't forget God was using Paul to deal with crisis in the local church, and the standard of conduct in a church business. And by application to our time.

Taking into consideration the Scriptures you quoted, i realized that Gal. 3:28, is not about ministerial gift, but our common great salvation, where there is no male or female, neither Greek nor Jew, but we are all one in Christ. This portion of Scripture has nothing to do with authority mandate in a local church. Even in The Trinity, One God in Three Persons, a principle of authority exist. Does this imply inferiority or subservient in the Godhead? I know nothing of any!

If we conclude that Apostle Paul has gender bias, that's a serious statement. The implication gonna be great, and would erode biblical standard.

Let's not forget Apostle Peter acknowledgment that Paul has tremendous spiritual revelation from God, which the non knowledgeable distorts. When we examine even 1 Tim. 2:12, from the original language, there is absolutely nothing that shows that Paul was making a personal opinion. Rather, he was being used by God to correct and reproof uncontrollable women who were exercising spiritual authority not giving to them by God. That Scripture, i believe contributed in no small measure in calming down a lot of tension in the early church. Eventually, the issue has become once more so controversial, especially in our time.

Fellow soldiers, i guess i won't be misunderstood and misquoted. I think the Scripture never says that women are not called into ministry. However, the Scripture stipulated unambiguously that women are not given the spiritual gift of a PASTOR. Are they teachers or preachers? Absolutely they are. Are we compromising the standard of Scripture when we ordain women to the functional office of a pastor? I believe we are, irrespective of our reasons or excuses.

That's all great and everything, but this is why it becomes important because we do not know what Paul taught the first time around. As a Jew he should have taught that the birthright comes through the female and not the male and if so his statement is not unreasonable. Now on the other hand in Christian teachings men have always liked the upper hand.

 

The reason I say that is in the OT Eve came from Adam which makes a person about as equal as one can get. Flesh of his flesh and all that, but that really is not pointed out well in Christianity and that is because a lot of Christianity has been run by men.

 

Ok you said, "However, the Scripture stipulated unambiguously that women are not given the spiritual gift of a PASTOR. Are they teachers or preachers?" All I can say to that is have you ever worked in a half way house or women's prison? How about homes for abused women and by the way abused because men were taught that a woman belongs to a man and a man is over a woman?

 

"Eventually, the issue has become once more so controversial, especially in our time." What I see is that it is due in part with a lack of proper teaching in the church. If one abuses his wife he abuses himself. The church has taught about having dominion over women like she was apart of the real estate  or something. The times display men being abusive to women. Today we are dressed up like dolls on the one side of abuse and everyone sort of knows about the other side of abuse.

 

The reason I say it is and was in the churches hands is because it is the body of Christ that has all power and authority in heaven and earth in the absence of the groom, which means the only way its going to get fixed is through the church. Now as far as the Hebrews are concerned a woman was very valuable. In fact when a man went to the prospective brides father the male offered an amount equal to what an expensive house today cost for his daughter and if they did not have the money the groom went to work for the father of the bride for as long as seven years. But the bride had one of a couple choices when the groom was proposing. He would pass the cup and that's what happened at what we call the Lord's table. When Jesus passed the cup to the disciples what He was saying was "will you be my bride?" The bride could either accept or reject the offer or make a counter offer. But when Jesus was walking around on earth it was the woman who passed the birthright, but in Christianity it changed to the male which coincided with pagan practices.

 

Taking those things in consideration then there is a foundation for Paul's remarks. Without the proper foundation and if the foundation was based on male being over the women is how the abuse starts. In Jesus time if man abused his wife, he was stoned. Go back to Proverbs where a good woman is highly prized, but there really is a lot to the subject. It would be nice if it started out as equality. Which is how God ordained it with Adam and Eve and certainly we see it again with Abraham and Sarah. But back then it was God and only God that ordained a couple to be together. Today the marriage is reduced to a piece of paper.

 

This really is all tied to honoring God the way He had ordained it and it would be considered as salvation to honor God and His wishes and will.

Sure its a gender fight! YOU made it one, by raising the gender issue, which is a pretty weak argument. Of course if we have nothing better we bring up gender, I guess?

 

THEN BY THEY WAY WE WITH THE SKIRTS KNOW ITS SHOUTING WHEN YOU TYPE WITH ALL CAPS!!!!!!

 

Thus making the problem worse. You believe in wife beating also?

Apparently, sadly, Karen has left. 

 

Unfortunately Paul was not one of the original twelve. He came some time after that. Yes I agree Paul for a Jew had some issues with women for whatever reason? I do know that in Ephesus and Corinth women were almost worshiped. In fact they had a few goddesses hanging around, which may have been why he said what he did.

 

I have to believe that Paul at least understood that it is not men that bring life on earth, but women, but go figure? It is much the same way in the church were if women are considered as equal there is also life and love. I also understand that in the Old Testament that Adam was given dominion over all things, but that mean that he was responsible to God for taking care of the place. Somehow in the Christian Church men have liked the dominion part, but not liked the part of being responsible to God for it all.

 

I know that Paul had to have known that it is women as far as the Hebrews were concerned that carried the birthright and not the males, which is evident with Abraham and Sarah as he was a prince, but Sarah was a princess and the birthright was passed through the female. Granted in the Christian Church again we see the birthright being passed through men as the pagans did in Rome and has stayed that way often distorting roles that both women and men have. The to add to the distortion you have Paul's statements made about women, but I am actually fairly convinced that in Paul's first trip, he did not teach everything there was to new believers in both Ephesus and Corinth. In fact, we really do not know what he did preach in either place the first time around. We unfortunately only have his letters which were done after the fact. This is of course a huge distortion if one looks at the Bible as being complete, because as I mentioned all we have is Paul's letters written to the different churches, but after they were established.

 

It is also clear that in Christianity at one time women were put to death for suggesting that men and women were equal. They were believed to have been witches as many had a gift of healing. I am very thankful that women under Christianity are no longer burned at the stake, but I have found that in many Christian Churches it is taught that women are second class citizens and actually even servants to men.

 

The concept is that if we speak or write that we are supposed to be led by the Spirit of God, which really means that we are supposed to be representing God and His will, however sadly in Christianity that is not required, which as it has been pointed out, I have a problem with that.
Why do we feel that God cannot handle his business, what does it take from you as a man if a woman is leading souls to Christ as a Pastor. Do we not serve an omnipotent God, an Omnipresent God that can fight his own battles. Why has it become your responsibility to decide who is called and who is not. Do we not believe that there are a lot of men in leadership that do not belong there. There may be several things that disqualify a pastor however I have seen where God sometimes prefer to use the disqualified. Lets say that women are disqualified.. Who are you to comment, especially when we all have stuff that should have disqualified us. Leave the women alone work on your ministry, God will handle any and all imposters - Both male and female.

Another Thing, Whats so wrong with being sexist, Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the application of the belief or attitude that there are characteristics implicit to one's gender that indirectly affect one's abilities.  

1. I don't open the car door for a man - SEXIST 

2. I let a lady take my seat on the bus or the Train - SEXIST 

3. If I see a woman beating up a man, I tend to believe he deserve it - SEXIST 

4. If I see a man beating up a woman, 911  Domestic Violence - SEXIST

5. I will not pay for a brother at a sit down meal, SEXIST 

6. I will not strike a woman even if she strikes me first - SEXIST 

7.  When I was single I usually pay for the meal on a date  SEXIST 

8.  A Woman gets the Engagement ring $$$ SEXIST 

9.  Its your wedding I just Show up  SEXIST 

10.  Child Support Case   Male (defendant) Female (Plaintiff)  - SEXIST 

11. Child Custody Wards  - SEXIST 

12. Child  Support Awards - SEXIST 

 

There exists a lot of cultural norms where being a woman you have the upper hand. For some women sexist only bothers them when it is not a benefit.  They are perfectly fine with sexism just as long as it works in thier favor - Food for Thought 

 

Pastor Anderson 

 

Actually Pastor Anderson, I might even pay to see some of the following:

1. I don't open the car door for a man - SEXIST 

2. I let a lady take my seat on the bus or the Train - SEXIST

5. I will not pay for a brother at a sit down meal, SEXIST 

7.  When I was single I usually pay for the meal on a date  SEXIST 

8.  A Woman gets the Engagement ring $$$ SEXIST 

9.  Its your wedding I just Show up  SEXIST 

10.  Child Support Case   Male (defendant) Female (Plaintiff)  - SEXIST 

11. Child Custody Wards  - SEXIST 

12. Child  Support Awards - SEXIST

 

Actually, I think we should be going for equality and if we do so then yes a lot of the sexist things a person does, needs to stop for a lot of reasons. One being as I am a woman I can comment on this and get away with it, many women today still get married for financial security more than love. A couple generations ago women could not even get a job except for maybe working in bar (I kept that nice) or maybe a secretary or waitress. Women got married so that they would be taken care of. My grandmother was married several times, first because opportunities for women where not there, but I have to be honest with you many times (ok i was being nice here again) moms teach their daughters that is what "one" does if she is a lady. We are taught that a man does not want a woman that has been out in the world for a while.

 

One problem and I will mention this at one time the tithe went in part for the priesthood, but also for the year of the drought or if the need arose. Today the money goes for the church (building) mortgage and the upkeep and maybe one or two staff positions.

 

My point of this is that we are to see each other as spirit and as such we are equal. If there is no more Jew or gentile then there really is no more male and female. Granted it is not how we live, but how we live does not make it right. We all are supposed to be family and close family at that. Would we not help our own family? I would hope? But not today. We send those in need to the government, but with that the government gets the praise instead of God for providing. We on the other hand figure that blessing is for us instead of sharing it with those less fortunate, not understanding or it being taught this is all a big test to see if we not only have the heart for God, but God to have God's heart and then do something with it.

 

The way I see it at least, God will not tell anyone to do anything. He helps us if we have the right type of heart to get something accomplished. He is the servant to the servant and if we are at the end of the day are over others (meaning not equal at the very least if not in a supportive or servant role) then we are possibly even putting our own salvation at risk? Now I realize that is not being taught, but that is sort of what happens. To prove the point we can see Lucifer, which granted is just an angel, but its not just being created by God, but not putting ourselves over God. Ok wondering about that. Scripture makes it clear that if we do not keep the commandments we do not love God. Sabbath anyone? Why is that important? Because it puts us over God as Lucifer did. YES, that is scary, but as leaders in the church we get to be responsible for everyone. Of course our escape is that we didn't know any better, but if thats true then we shouldn't be leaders? So we do know better, but we like to tell ourselves we do not know better.

 

Equality is it important? Without equality we cannot have freedom or even a free will. Without equality one cannot love because if one is over the other, real love cannot exist. Love is it important? Yes, "they will know that you are mine, by your love one for the other." Love and equality go hand in hand.

Can you explain to me what your conversation has to do with the topic up for discussion

Thanks. And please check the discussion board for my latest prodding on Christian teachings. Awaiting your view. Bless you

 

Amechi, the topic on discussion here is salvation I would prefer if you did not change the topic ain this discussion especially when you introduce a subject in utter ignorance
"Can you explain to me what your conversation has to do with the topic up for discussion"

 

Well, the question is whether salvation is eternal or not, but then again in order to answer or attempt to answer whether salvation is eternal or not, one needs to get to the definition of what salvation is and how do we get to this place everyone likes to talk about as "being saved."

 

I mean scripture is not real clear. We tend to like left or right answers, because most of us like to go right up to that line without going over that line, but salvation being a changed heart is not really about a line, but not wanting to offend God. We often offend God and do not even realize it (from what I see anyhow) by how we deal with each other. Do we treat one another with love? Do we treat each other as equal?

 

Equality is important because the true test to see if we belong to Jesus or not which is how I would define salvation, "is by our love one for the other," but it is difficult to love if one is over the other or better than the other and yes this discussion, brings out peoples beliefs in how we treat one another, more than the flowery words that we may have.

 

It really is wonderful that we all may have thoughts about what salvation is or isn't, but what is really important is what God thinks salvation is or isn't and then walk by that.

 

It is not so much what a person says or even teaches, but what is important is how they live their lives. The sad part about this is we never really get to know the people that are writing the words we see them write. It is all we see. If we really saw each other it would give us a better grasp of reality? Many are deceived because of words, but one knows the truth if one can see how they think or see things or how they perceive something and that takes time to find out about a person.

Hello everyone the topic up for discusion is quite clear so please do not veer off unto another topic otherwise I will assume you have exhaust the subject of salvation and if that is the case please feel free to begin a whole new topic at the right forum   Thank yopu 

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