But what is your take on what would have happened if the prodigal son or anyone who had received salvation backslides by rejecting the Father, His Son, the Holy Ghost and totally turned away from the faith and DIED without having repented or had the opportunity to return to the fold. Would that person be heading for hell or heaven? This is a conversation that came up with a couple of my work colleague when we were in an after discussion on Luke 15:11-32 so I would be interested in having a discussion and receiving everyone's point of view.
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I think you are being rhetorical and argumentative? See I put the the question mark there so it is not an accusation? See the heart?
So if we go to Jeremiah which is in the OT, that is unless they moved it, then equally in the OT is the commandments. Now........... this where it gets sticky and one comes up with a thousand reasons why the commandments to do not apply, especially in talking about the Sabbath and keeping it holy? In the OT Israel was required to follow God. Today in the church or Christianity or even Evangelicalism it is not required to follow God or find ones purpose or calling. For some reason being holy seems to slide out the back door?
So if we are saying that the OT is important, then the OT is important and then Jesus did not come to start a new religion called Christianity, but came to provide a way that all could be grafted into the promise. If we go with the concept that Jesus could be grafted in then we need to look at Christian teachings including Evangelicalism, which teaches once saved always saved and really like it or not there is a connection to demos which goes with the popular vote. But if we live with the possibility of demos then will want to convince everyone "it's all good."
Here is where I see a huge problem, because in Evangelicalism people in missions went out not just to places like Africa, but also places like Moldova and spread the good news that it is about family and love and sharing with those in need. Accept Jesus and your problems will be solved. At one time according to Evangelical sources as many as 1 million where coming to Jesus (wonder why). What was preached by many is that we are saved by grace through faith that one is saved. It is a gift of God.
Now we are a global mission and I cannot tell you what has happened. We get a flood for requests for money. In fact in the millions and for some reason they have problems understanding that their family over here or at least some of us do not have it. So ....... many have lost faith. Now we could blame them from being stupid and believing what they were told, but that is a little harsh?Then of course we can argue that they got saved for the wrong reason, but they like you are saying the same thing "A GOD OF PROVISION."
You see with Evangelicalism the thrust is on the getting one saved no matter how one does it, because after all "once saved always saved." Yes there is provision but for that provision of forgiveness is a humble heart to confess our sin and ask for forgiveness. I John 1:9 says that clearly, but for some reason you are not seeing that I am saying that?
The teaching you are handing out is that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you come back for forgiveness and yes I have a problem with that for many reasons.
Yes they EXPECT A GOD AND A PEOPLE OF GOD OF PROVISION.
What is important to keep in mind at least that we are supposed to be representing what we preach and teach, which is different than what we might want to believe.
Great response, Dr.
I don't know why I can't keep my mouth shut. I guess there is only one right answer. I take the whole book as the word of God. This knocks hard against why we live in this less God society. Man in his infinite wisdom has acquired so much knowledge that they have all the answers. The Bible is now a reference and resource tool but God seems to be talking to and through man and Grace and Mercy are extended by man now. I see why it's so hard to get people saved and keep them. YOU HAVE TO BE PERFECT TO BE SAVED based on what some are saying and I worry that God gets minimized because man looks to man that they can see for their direction on salvation.
I'm gonna leave this site. I find that I see the worst in Ministry here. It is the reason I took so long to come to the Ministry because we are divided and aren't willing to come to a consensus. I think I want to be open but no so hard that I exclude the saint in progress.
I bless God that ordinary people don't go into Ministry.
To start with in response to:Reply by Rev. Anthony R. Watson Rev. West, for the record, it was not a "great response." It was a typical judgmental response from a person who doesn't have a clue about the subject matter. Just a bunch of negative ranting from someone who is not a Christian and doesn't profess Christianity. I dismissed this one awhile ago, and I'm suggesting that you do the same.
What you continue to fail to understand that if we are equal, you do not have a right to tell me or anyone for that matter what to do. I mean you always rant that scripture is true, but then where in scripture does it give you the right to say such things as "Just a bunch of negative ranting from someone who is not a Christian and doesn't profess Christianity. I dismissed this one awhile ago, and I'm suggesting that you do the same."
Do you not even understand that 10 commandments about bearing false witness against another or judging them like you have with me? How is it that you do not understand that if you judge me you judge God?
As far as the preacher teacher is concerned, I would guess that it is your way of running your life that allows you to quit, when someone challenges you when you make statements like "YOU HAVE TO BE PERFECT TO BE SAVED based on what some are saying and I worry that God gets minimized because man looks to man that they can see for their direction on salvation."What creates division is people leaving. That is division! Today we maybe calling it something else but that is division. One way to end division is for people to stop grazing like cattle looking for better grazing pasture. Let's be honest the reason we leave is because we figure we are better than others? That we are above such things?
I never said one had to be perfect. I am saying that how one is perfected is by love. I am saying that the Word of God is Jesus and that there is biblical evidence to that fact. Jesus died, gave His life to save people like me and for that I am eternally grateful.
I am saying without a doubt that opinions do not belong anywhere in our lives if we are dead in Christ. I am saying clearly that the only right answer is to seek God and speak or write what He gives us to speak or write and that anything else is religion, because our obligation is to represent the love and will of God and not Christianity because there are two different agendas and paths that one goes down to either represent the love and will of God or they represent Christianity. It shouldn't be, but there is two different paths and salvation can only be found in the one path. Granted how we get to God is through the gate that is Jesus and that Jesus is the perfect example for us to follow, which was to do the will of the Father that sent Him, which really is what salvation is. If one seeks after the Father to represent His love and will then yes one is saved eternally, but all to often in Christianity that is not what happens.
In Christianity one can do whatever they want and as long as they have faith they are saved that is all that is required and I am say that is deception. If we have been bought and paid for with a price, we are no longer our own and have no right to represent our own will in anything.
When I hear people give opinions, yes it scares the crap out of me especially if they are teaching and preaching opinions instead of representing the love and will of God.
Yes we all make stupid mistakes and even do things we know that are wrong and I am saying that we need to confess those things to be forgiven and if we do He is faithful and just to forgive our sin, but we would not be in sin if we represented the love and will of God. WE any of us only get into trouble when we represent something other than the love and will of God, which is not what salvation is.
I don't know how to make this any clearer? What I have said is all scriptural. I challenge anyone to find anywhere in scripture that we are here to represent the love and will of God. It is our only purpose and function. Really this should be a no brainer. It is non offensive, yet people are offended.
To me iniquity is to represent something other than the love and will of God, but how one knows it is from God is that His will is equally the same for people in America as in Moldova as an example. Iniquity is to go by ones own beliefs representing them as the love and will of God. Iniquity is taking someones free will away from them. Iniquity is to be over them or dominate people or control people. Iniquity is selling fear as that is manipulation. Iniquity is to put ourselves in front of God or His will and iniquity is to justify what we do. Anything less than love is iniquity and sin. If we love we will desire to end starvation, homelessness, care for the sick and those in prison and iniquity is not to care. Iniquity divides people where love brings people together.
"I bless God that ordinary people don't go into Ministry." Everyone is called to be in ministry. Everyone is of a royal priesthood and everyone is an ambassador for Christ and to teach otherwise probably should be considered iniquity. We do not have a right to teach, preach or even speak or write that we are not all called to ministry to represent the love and will of God, because it goes against all manner of scripture.
Now if there was anything humanistic in any of this, please let me know.
lol, Rev. Watson the question is do you? again the point is missed, here is a question.. what, or whom , or how do you become a worker of iniquity?
so am i brother
"so am i brother"
One is a brother or sister if one has the heart to be family. We are to treat each other as we would God with the same respect. It is a salt covenant we have with each other and we all should be taking that seriously. God does and if we are His people, His offspring then we should as well.
I guess I personally do not understand that jokes.
To me this is about life and death and those we influence will live or die by what is being taught.
To me this is a very serious topic and we either respond by our minds or what we think we know or by seeking the Holy Spirit for what to say in the hopes that whoever ends up reading this will be influenced by the Spirit of God. One thing for sure is that those that are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
What I have learned is that God is very serious about all that happens. This subject if I understand it correctly, is to seek the Holy Spirit for the answer. Religion is about what man's thoughts. This is not supposed to be about religion. This is supposed to be (I thought anyway) about getting together to seek God for the answers. The facts even in scripture is that one can have their name blotted out of the Lambs Book of Life. It does not say that one is saved and then one can do what they want in life and still be saved. It just does not say that anywhere.
We here in ministry should be obligated to God to represent His love and will to all people on earth. Anything else will not work. We all were given an example in Acts to follow in setting up a church and what they did. We all are seeking how to make it work, but we do not like the idea of following the example of what they did in Acts.
To me it is a sin to be teaching other that what is there. Granted the Holy Spirit often adds to what is in scripture, or expounds on what is in scripture but He cannot go against what is there and no where does it say once saved always saved. It also does not state that the church will not have to go through the tribulation.
It does say we should be doing everything to get in front of God to seek mercy and for Him to spare the people. Yes it is all that serious. It is that deep. Just because a person cannot see how deep or serious, it does not make it less serious or deep. It just means that you may not see that it is so deep and serious.
Dr. Carrol, It's not that deep at all. As a matter of face I'm going to refrain from commenting on your discourse because there is no fruit coming out of this dialogue which by the way was started almost two years ago. It's getting nastier and nastier and I didn't come here for that...I came to be among like minded folks walking in the word and carrying this great Gospel into all the world.
I don't like that you have been attacked nor the way it has been done. I grew up with the addage that if I didn't have anything nice to say that I should say nothing. I apoologize for engaging in this with you as I wasn't here to debate but to say that Just like God speaks to you he speaks to me and my only point was lets not be so quick to remove grace and mercy from folks and tell them that if they are saved today that doesn't mean that they are saved tomorrow. I thought that NEW MERCIES was a preventative measure that God put in place to keep us secure. Luckily for us God came for the one lost sheep.
It ain't that deep is all I am saying. I know you a scholar and got degrees. I'm just a lover of God and a teacher who loves the word.
God Bless and Keep You.