Should a Pastor, Pastor a Church for free

[Pastor Lorenzo Edwards]

Should a pastor that spends most of his time preaching and teaching get paid for what God has him to do? I know what the scriptures says about this, but would you pastor for free?

[YaaKov and Hadassah Terry]

Mr. McClain writes:"Pastors go to school have to pay for there own tuition.

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And what did your Rabbi do???... He went to a yeshiva or Academy for a lifetime. ..and then went out and did Tikkun Olam! As all Jewish Rabbis try to do even to this day..
But you do not see them jumping around shouting foolish pablum to the sheep...

They actually study everything of G-d and all the Rabbinic theology and Hasidic teachings and all the received traditions (Qaballah) and the Zohar and the Tanya and on and on and on the list goes until they are filled to overflowing as a well of love to the people..and The Orthodox assures they are worthy to feed the people

Before they can teach others.
Not like the Xian church a few years of superficial study,... a degree of sorts,... then given a position of some demonation or they start another group,... Is that not so?
Deep Study is not so in the Christian circles.

The Blind showmen' lead the blind sheeple...they use a few picked out scriptures and incite the people to give for the flesh.. and false doctrines~ Yeshua would have spit out. the foolishness and Stated he did not come to take away from the torah But to fullfill it [ In your Bible Matis Yahu 5:v17ff]~That word translated in the Hebrew Idiom is to walk it out~~~..John Stated that to Abide in the teachings of Yeshua that you needed to Walk it out~First John2:v6~.at least Yeshua/J-sus was a Tzaddik, a Pious Jew- Rabbi~~before he went out to teach the Gentiles the Seven Noahide laws and to the Jew Torah~~IMO

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

1Timothy 3:1-8 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Titus 1:6-11 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

1Peter 5:2-3 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

The Preacher is only suppose to use the tithes to further the church. He should have a separate job, and pay tithes himself to the Lord. Anyone who get's paid by the church, in my opinion does not have the best interests of the Church at heart unless it is to gain from the church.

[Dr. "V" Adams,DMin.]

After twelve years of pastoring God's People, I have found that we could never really be "paid" for what we are expected to do. Furthermore, if we do it right, we invest so much time, energy and resources into our ministry that it can never be repaid. Therefore it is imperative that the "Servant of the Lord" be accommodated in such a way that is befitting and fair. If the "Servant" is a "workman" then he/she is worthy...". We need to help our people understand that ministry is reciprocal! We need to be both givers and receivers if we are to be appropriately blessed. This is the only way, I believe, that a ministry will be fruitful and prosper according to the way God intended.

[ReAsOn DiSciPLe]

The Apostles say that the Elder (a pastor can also be an elder) who labored double in the word and doctrine was worthy of it. But what I think the issue is where people are confused is where Paul talks about the apostles. He said that they would not so much as take a dime for there labor though they had every right to, especially if he had a family to support. Remember God started the family in the garden of Eden before He started the church. Jesus taught about that when He told the Pharisees about Corban--a gift for God. Also, so that I confuse no one, Paul did take money, for he said in once epistle he robbed other churches BUT ... BUT for another churches benefit. He also took money from the Philippians church because THEY WANTED TO. He said that he didn't desire it because HE DESIRED THE FRUIT called GENEROSITY that would grow out of their giving. Then he said because God would supply all his needs according to His riches.

And don’t think that I am against leaders getting paid for their services. Jesus Himself used money in His ministry (but He never sold in the temple, neither did He ever collect a penny in tithe money).

Giving is a matter of pride in the hearts and mouths of many church members. They boast of giving tithes and offerings, which certainly should be given, but they take an attitude that they will be blessed financially because they are faithful to tithe. They think that they will be cursed financially if they don't tithe. I could not tell you how many Christians over my many years of ministry have told me they decided to start tithing. And as a result, instead of seeing financial prosperity they had one financial disaster after another.

And as a personal testimony I am one of them. I have tithe over the years THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. And have not received but only the same amount back.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth [plants a seed for example: like 'money'], that [same seed of money he has planted] shall he also reap [or gather the same money when it grows back to himself]. (The first verse is YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, but the second part is a little different. Most miss the point in this statement of Truth.) For he that soweth [plants money] to his flesh [self, for selfish gain] shall of the flesh reap [gather back] corruption [or corruptible money. Why? Because it was sown in selfishness]; BUT he that soweth [plants money] to the Spirit [or plants/invests money into God's inspired projects] shall of the Spirit [or from God] reap [gather back] life everlasting [eonian/age-abiding or SPIRITUAL wealth that will last for and throughout the ages]. (The second verse is YOU REAP ONLY WHERE YOU SOW IT AT.)" (Galatians 6:7-8).

"But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." (2nd Corinthians 9:6).

Instead of telling people that they will prosper financially if they tithe, I tell people to prepare to be "tested" by "famine." (Note Genesis 12, when Abram was called to follow God and immediately after he left all his financial security "there was a famine in the land." And it was after the Lost Son got his father's inheritance and went into a far country and spent all that "there arose a might famine in the land.")

The tithe in the Old Testament was not 10% of their total income, but 10% of this and 10% of that, right on up to as much as 40 to 60% of their total income. I don't know anybody who truly tithes according to the Law of Moses.

Christian giving is based on one's ability and one's heart. Jesus took the opportunity to make this point when He watched the people putting their money into the treasury.

"And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and MANY that were rich CAST IN MUCH. And there came a certain POOR widow, and she threw in two mites [a mite is a half penny. So two made a PENNY], which make a farthing [which is a WHOLE PENNY]. And He called unto Him His disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath CAST MORE IN [then the many that were rich who cast in MUCH], than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in OF THEIR ABUNDANCE [Gk: 'superabound (in quality or quantity), be in excess, be superfluous, to cause to superabound or excel, (make, more) abound, (have, have more) abundance, (be more) abundant, be the better, enough to spare, exceed, excel, increase, be left, redound, remain (over and above)]; but she OF HER WANT [Gk: 'to be later, i.e. to be inferior, fall short (be deficient), come behind (short), be destitute, fail, lack, suffer need, (be in) want, be the worse'] did cast in ALL THAT SHE HAD, EVEN ALL HER LIVING." (Mark 12:41-44).

It has always been true that the poor are the ones who really support the Lord's work financially. James even tells us,

"Hearken, my beloved brethren, HATH GOD NOT CHOSEN THE POOR OF THIS WORLD RICH IN FAITH, and heirs of the kingdom which He hath promised to them that love Him?" (James 2:5).

The poor are the ones who have the faith to give.

HOW THE APOSTLE PAUL FINANCED HIS INTERNATIONAL MINISTRY
Worldliness in the Church today is not looked upon as shameful, but rather as being chic. Power, wealth, and notoriety are not things to be repented of, but are rather to be lusted after and pursued with great vigor. Young aspiring ministers are not thought to be vain or ambitious when seeking worldliness, but are rather thought of as being enthusiastic for the work of the Lord. Let’s see how Paul did things.
"For yourselves know how you ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you: Neither did we eat any man’s bread for naught; but wrought with labor and travail NIGHT AND DAY, that we might not be chargeable to any man. Not because we have not power, but to MAKE OURSELVES AN EXAMPLE UNTO YOU TO FOLLOW US" (2nd Thessalonians 3:7-9).
But how many truly follow Paul’s example? You be the judge.
"For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: for LABOURING NIGHT AND DAY, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the Gospel of God" (1st Thessalonians 2:9).
Imagine that: Paul could not only walk and chew gum at the same time, but he could work "night and day" and "preach the Gospel of God" at the same time! Just maybe there is a lesson in there somewhere. Paul travels to Corinth:
"And because he was of the same craft [trade], he abode with them, and wrought [worked]: for by their occupation they were tentmakers" (Acts 18:3).
"I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold [money], or apparel [clothes and material blessings]. Yea, ye [all of you] yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have showed you all things how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:33-31).
Don’t kid yourself, there’s a whole army of men of the cloth out there coveting your gold and your silver. Many television ministries are little more than highly sophisticated Hollywood-produced, tithe-collecting infomercials. They make me ill watching them.
One final example of how Paul ministered and financed his ministry:
"For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle [Gk: 'A PLACE FOR PUBLIC SHOW ("THEATRE"), i.e. GENERAL AUDIENCE-ROOM, by implication: A SHOW ITSELF'] unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

We are fools [Gk: 'DULL OR STUPID (as if SHUT UP), i.e. HEEDLESS (neglectful, oblivious, without regard, rash, reckless, careless, unmindful), (moral) BLOCKHEAD, (apparently) ABSURD:--FOOLISH'] for Christ's sake, but ye [all of you] are wise in Christ;

we are weak [Gk: 'STRENGTHLESS (literally, figuratively, or morally), MORE FEEBLE, IMPOTENT, SICK, WITHOUT STRENGTH, WEAK'], but ye [all of you] are strong; ye [all of you] are honorable,

but we are despised [Gk: '(negative) UNHONORED or (positive) DISHONORED:--DESPISED, WITHOUT HONOR, LESS HONORABLE {comparative degree}'].

Even unto this present hour we both hunger [Gk: '(through the idea of PINCHING TOIL, "PINE") TO FAMISH (absolutely or comparatively), figuratively: TO CRAVE: BE A HUNGERED'],

and thirst [NEED FOR LIQUIDS, DEHYDRATED, DRYNESS, DESIRE, LONGING, HUNGER, CRAVING, EAGERNESS],

and are naked [Gk: 'TO STRIP, i.e. (reflexive) GO POORLY CLAD (POORLY DRESSED, POORLY CLOTHED):--BE NAKED'],

and are buffeted [Gk: 'CHASTEN-FROM (RESERVED FOR INFLICTION), TO RAP WITH THE FIST, A BLOW, A HARD HIT (AS WITH THE FIST), A SUDDEN ATTACK, A SUDDEN CALAMITY OR SHOCK, A STRIKING WITH THE HANDS, A SUCCESSION OF BLOWS, STRIFE, OPPOSITION, ADVERSITY, A HARD HIT (ESPECIALLY TO THE FACE)'],

and have no certain dwelling place [Gk: 'TO BE NON STATIONARY, i.e. (figuratively) HOMELESS:--HAVING NO CERTAIN DWELLING PLACE'];

And labor [Gk: 'TO FEEL FATIQUE, by implication: TO WORK HARD:--(BESTOW) LABOR, TOIL, BE WEARIED (TIRED, TIRED OUT, SLEEPY, EXHAUSTED, WARN OUT, FATIGUED, DRAINED, SOMNOLENT)'],

WORKING [Gk: 'TO TOIL (AS A TASK, OCCUPATION, EMPLOYMENT, TRADE, ETC.), (by implication) EFFECT (ACHEIVE, PRODUCE), BE ENGAGED IN OR WITH, ETC.:--COMMIT, DO , LABOR FOR, MINISTER ABOUT (AROUND), TRADE (BY), WORK'] WITH OUR OWN HANDS:

being reviled [Gk: 'TO REPROACH, i.e. VILIFY (SPEAK ILL OF, MALIGN, DEGENERATE, RUN DOWN, PULL TO PIECES, BELITTLE, DISPARAGE, LIBEL):--REVILE, ABUSIVE, i.e. A BLACKGUARD (A LOW CONTEMPTIBLE PERSON, SCOUNDREL, A GROUP OF MENIAL WORKERS (USUALLY IN THE KITCHEN OF A LARGE HOUSEHOLD, THE SERVANTS OF AN ARMY, CAMP FOLLOWERS), TO REVILE IN SCURRILOUS LANGUAGE):--RAILER, REVILER'], we bless;

being persecuted [Gk: 'TO PURSUE (literally & figuratively), by implication: PERSECUTE:--ENSUE, FOLLOW (AFTER), GIVEN TO, (SUFFER) PERSECUTION, PRESS FOWARD'],

we suffer [Gk: 'TO HOLD ONESELF UP AGAINST, i.e. (figuratively) PUT UP WITH:--BEAR WITH, ENDURE, FORBEAR, SUFFER'] it [the persecution]:

Being defamed [Gk: 'VILIFY (SPEAK ILL OF, MALIGN, DEGENERATE, RUN DOWN, PULL TO PIECES, BELITTLE, DISPARAGE, LIBEL), specifically: TO SPEAK IMPIOUSLY (SPOKEN OF AS SINFUL, IRREVERANT, WICKED, BAD, IMMORAL):--(SPEAK) BLASPHEMED, DEFAME, RAIL ON, REVILE (INSULT, ABUSE, SCORN, CONDEMN, SENSURE, DESPISE, BERATE DISPARAGE), SPEAK EVIL'], we intreat:

we are made as the filth [Gk: 'SOMETHING CLEANED OFF ALL AROUND, i.e. REFUSE (DECLINED, REJECTED, SAID NO TO, SNUBBED, REBUFFED, TURNED DOWN, REPUDIATED) (figuratively):--FILTH'] of the world [Gk: 'ORDERLY ARRANGEMENT OR SYSTEM OF THE WHOLE OR SOME PART OF HUMAN SOCIETY, (figuratively) SATAN'S KINGDOM, BABYLON'],

and are the offscouring [Gk: '(TO RUB), SOMETHING BRUSHED ALL AROUND, i.e. OFF-SCRAPINGS (figuratively; SCUM):--OFFSCOURING'] of all things unto this day.

I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons [children] I warn you.

For though ye [all of you] have ten thousand instructors [teachers, masters, doctors] in Christ, yet [STILL] have ye [all of you] NOT MANY [but only FEW] fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Wherefore [for this reason] I beseech [BEG OF] you, BE YE [ALL OF YOU] FOLLOWERS [Gk: 'AN IMITATOR:--FOLLOWER, (A "MIMIC" {IMITATE, IMPERSONATE, TAKE OFF, APE (like 'money see, monkey do'), COPY, IMPRESSIONIST})'] OF ME." (1st Corinthians 4:9-16)!
Cheerfully giving from the heart is a virtue. However, fraudulently fleecing the flock by exacting ten percent of parishioner's paychecks under fear of breaking an Old Testament law of tithing is a sin!
It is far past time that we offer a little comfort to the millions of people in our nation and around the world who are chafing under the constant burden of supporting ministers and televangelists who live lifestyles so materialistic and worldly that even Hugh Heffner would be envious. I’m not trying to be humorous about these characters; I’m dead serious.
Well I certainly don’t begrudge any minister an honest living. However, I do believe that when many of these modern televangelists (and others) feel the need to have everything they own gold gilded, just maybe their greed and vanity starts to destroy their effectiveness as dispensers of God’s Truths.
There is no need for people to feel guilty over any religious doctrine. It is time we rid ourselves of guilty consciences. Hopefully, by the time you have finished reading this paper your guilt over tithing or non-tithing will be gone forever!
It is our sincere desire that all who have been chafing under the unscriptural burden of Christian tithing will feel free at last to follow their heart in giving to whomever they desire as God prospers them. John 8:32 tells us that Truth is Freedom:
"And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you FREE."

[YaaKov and Hadassah Terry]

Mr Deciple ( talmidim) writes:"I don't know anybody who truly tithes according to the Law of Moses."

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May I suggest this for starters~~~Only about Fourteen million Torah Observant Jews who are Echad with the Marital agreement At Sinai...Enjoy your journey.. If I can humbly help any one come out of the Qagmire let me know..Check my Book blog It is filled with good Historical starter references

PS John 8:v32 is talking about Torah' Oral and Recieved traditions~~ You shall know Torah within Because you are a Living Torah yo u are a conduit through which the Divine Master can work in and through you to this sick and dying humanity~~
Simply: Because you are one~echad' with G-d.

you walk the walk..as Yochannon nicely wrote for you...First john 2:v6~~

Shalom Aleichem

[James Pierce]

Yaakov,

Say what?

[YaaKov and Hadassah Terry]

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I know Mr.Pierce,...that was a little deep

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How to become One with the father? Yeshua stated; I pray,... that they (his Talmidim) become One as he was one...What is that??
What part of the soul can connect to the Master,... The Yer-hi-dah'...the aspect of the soul that deals with Oneness...


Let us continue on this path...if you care...the Master creator/YHVH/G-d/~is not concerned with religious foolishness and misconstruction. He is far more interested in obedience to the Torah that was before the foundation of all things...and that we connect to Him and only HaShem...no middle person needed.

The Torah foundation is the Brides instructions and so much more...However, only when we get past the quagmire of contension....and fleshly ideals, will we get to go up higher...But first the washing.

[ReAsOn DiSciPLe]

I have nothing against your style to writing or your faith to G-d, but I do see that in the Word of YHVH He revealed Himself in new ways. Paul also identified in 1st Corinthians chapter 14 that what you say should be understandable to ALL for the EDIFICATION or building up the listener. If no one understands what you say you are foreigners to each other.

Next, notice what Paul instructs us in verse 6:

"Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with languages, what shall it profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"

If your teaching is not by revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or doctrine, "what shall it profit you," Paul asks? Nothing else is acceptable. But is this what the people of God are actually doing when they use words that others don't understand. Are they speaking to the entire congregation by "revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or doctrine," or are they babbling gibberish into the air, in which case NO ONE IS EDIFIED? And the whole endeavor is but an exhibition of the FLESH?
Paul continues:

"And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" (Verses 7-8).
Having been in the Army for four years, let me explain this: If an army is preparing for battle, and they are all waiting for the trumpet to sound the charge, but instead, the trumpeter sounds "taps," then instead of charging the enemy, the army will GO TO SLEEP! It is necessary that the trumpet make the proper sound. Nor is preparation for battle the time for a trumpeter to be practicing on his horn. It is likewise, necessary for one who speaks in a language, to be understood.
Paul attempts to make it ever clearer:

"So likewise you, except you utter by the language words easy to understand, how shall it be known what is spoken? For you shall speak into the air" (Verse 9).
Is that the way you wish to glorify your YHVH/G-d and Master createor? By speaking nonsense into the air?

Verse 10: "There are, it may be, so many kinds [Gk: genos] of voices [disclosure, saying, or language] in the world, and none of them is without signification [none is dumb or mute]. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice [language], I shall be unto him that speaks [we speak in languages] a barbarian [foreigner], and he that speaks shall be a barbarian [foreigner] unto me."
This couldn’t be clearer. Paul is saying that if we don’t understand a language spoken to us by a foreigner to us, we become foreigners to each other.
Verse 12: "Even so [in the very same way] ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."

All these gifts are all about edifying the church, not making a spectacle of ourselves, in our flesh.

Verse 13-14: "Wherefore let him that speaks in a language pray that he may interpret." For if [a supposition, not a fact, same as though in previous chapter] I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my understanding [my mind] is UNFRUITFUL."
And Paul tells us to "have no fellowship with the UNFRUITFUL works of darkness" (Eph. 5:11). So even if one had the gift of languages, he should NOT speak without an interpretation, because it is "unfruitful" (verse 14), it is just praying to "himself" (verse 4), it does not "edify, exhort or comfort" (verse 3), it is not "by revelation, knowledge, prophesying, or doctrine" (verse 6), it is not a "distinct sound," (verse 7), for one merely "speaks into the air," (verse 9), you are like a "barbarian" to whom you speak (verse 11), therefore, "If there be no interpreter, let him keep SILENCE in the Church…"
Verse 15: "What is it then? [How should it be done?]. I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding [the mind] also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding [the mind] also. Else when you shall bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupies the room of the unlearned [uninformed] say A-men at your giving of thanks, seeing he understands NOT WHAT YOU SAY? For you verily give thanks well [that is if you truly are speaking in a foreign language, and not just some gibberish] but the other is NOT EDIFIED."

"He that speaks in a tongue [language] edifies himself [well that’s a selfish thing to do!] BUT he that prophesies [is inspired to teach by God’s Spirit in the language of the congregation] edifies THE CHURCH [now that’s the unselfish thing to do]."
Paul again admonishes them by saying:

"I would that you all spoke with tongues, BUT RATHER [here is Paul’s instructions as to HOW this gift is to be properly used] that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with languages, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying" (Verse 5).

[YaaKov and Hadassah Terry]

Disciple~ First Todah Raba Thank you very much But if I have any wisdom it is not from me but more-so from the Master within ( connect to that and the Shekinah will overflow you) many years of tears paved the way Brokeness and intimacy will reveal YHVH love come forth ...

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~~There is Mixture in the Message in that you are dealing with several religious concepts. I was awakened to this a while back First; The Mis-construction of Rome compilations and untruths then handed to the protestant daughters now at the helm of the modern institution known a 'church'~~Second to that Paul who choose Not to go up and learn from James/Yaakov and Peter/kepha,...is dealing with Hellenistic and proto agnostic theology and spending much time refuting them That is what the church is for the most part today what Paul fought against..James was ADAMENT in his teaching of Torah observance even with the watering down.. You specify Two different Rabbi's,.... who do you follow Paul or Yeshua or Apollo or Hillel or Akiba or Philo or Gamaliel or Bet Shammai or ~~Get the point! Man cannot not have two Masters therefore I choose YHVH and the Living breathing Torah filled with the Shekinah life that is intended for us The Son's of Elohim...Do as Yeshua taught you to seek out that which was lost (The connection as ONE with the master) The Shekinah Life in and through you to this sick and dying humanity... "When you cannot find a man then become the Man"~ Rabbi Hillel'~~One of his students took this to heart .You know him as J-sus or Mar Yeshua Ben Yoseph... SO the "Walk as he walked' a Torah observant Jew "Convert and be Healed, Be made whole"
Check your bloodline you are from the Tribes of Israel so go study your roots and walk the walk is my advice it is your choice....to leave all the quagmire behind...

Shalom, above all enjoy your journey "Out of Her" I can help show the way


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellinistic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_texts

[ReAsOn DiSciPLe]

So what you are saying is that Jesus, Paul, James, Peter were all divided? They all taught unity in the Spirit of God.

Here's an example of a similar argument that God's ministers were divided by the so called 'rapture' teaching:

"... endeavor to be found by Him in peace, unspotted and flawless. And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation ..."

Comment: What they were calling the Lord’s delay or failure to return, Peter calls "patience" of our Lord. And this patience was for their salvation.

"... according as our beloved brother Paul ALSO WRITES TO YOU ..."

Comment: What a dilemma for the rapturists. If these churches were founded by Paul, WHY IS PETER WRITING TO THEM? And if these churches were founded by Peter, WHY IS PAUL WRITING TO THEM? If, according to our rapturists friends, there was one gospel message for the Jews, and another gospel for the Gentiles, how is it that we have both PETER AND PAUL BRINGING THE GOSPEL TO THESE CHURCHES IN THEIR RESPECTIVE EPISTLES?
In the earlier pages of this paper we saw the many arguments regarding the supposed differences in the way the Jews received salvation and the way Paul taught salvation to the Gentiles. We also saw that those differences were imaginary. Peter says in 1st Peter 5:12,

"Through Silvanus a faithful brother [Paul’s companion], as I am reckoning, I write briefly to you, entreating and deposing that THIS IS THE TRUE GRACE OF GOD, IN WHICH YOU ARE TO STAND."

Peter says concerning his teaching in this epistle, "THIS IS" the true grace of God. There is no contradiction between Peter and Paul here!
Now, let us get down to the specific things that Paul wrote to these churches.

"... as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in ALL THE EPISTLES ..."

Comment: These churches (even if we demand that they were Jewish churches started by Peter himself) had ALL OF PAUL’S EPISTLES! This is a remarkable section of Scripture!
If these churches had already received Peter’s gospel, why would they want to hear Paul’s gospel? These are questions that demand answers if it is taught that Christ’s coming for the Jewish saints and Gentiles saints are, in fact, TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS!
The fact that Paul referred at times to "MY gospel" does not negate the fact that he also referred to it as "THE gospel" as well. There is ONE gospel. Peter and Paul both taught the ONE gospel whether they were teaching Jews, or whether they were teaching Gentiles, or whether they were teaching Jews and Gentiles simultaneously!
Continuing:

"... in all the epistles [of Paul], speaking in them concerning THESE THINGS ..."

Comment: What things? All the twenty some verses regarding the coming of the Lord and the fulfillment of their hopes and expectations! Now let’s settle the matter right here and now:

PETER has just written two epistles to these churches mentioning the coming of our Lord and the fulfillment of our expectation TWENTY SOME TIMES! We just read that PAUL ALSO HAS WRITTEN TO THEM IN ALL HIS EPISTLES CONCERNING "THESE THINGS" (Ver. 16). THESE ARE THE "SAME THINGS," WRITTEN BY THE SAME TWO APOSTLES, TO THE SAME CHURCHES (regardless as to whether they were Jews, Gentiles, or both)! Peter AND Paul taught the SAME THINGS REGARDING THE SECOND COMING OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. THERE IS NO SECRET RAPTURE!
Now listen to Peter’s appraisal of this whole matter regarding Paul’s epistles speaking about the same things that his epistles speak of:

"... in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things HARD TO APPREHEND ..."

Comment: Notice Peter didn’t say they couldn’t be understood, but rather that they were hard to apprehend. But, PETER FOR ONE, CERTAINLY DID APPREHEND THEM!

Peter studied ALL OF PAUL’S EPISTLES, and he understood them. But what does he say about those who do NOT apprehend Paul’s epistles?

"... some things hard to apprehend, which the UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE are TWISTING, AS THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES ALSO, to their own destruction."

Comment: Peter tells us that those who cannot apprehend Paul’s deeper teachings are UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE, and therefore, they TWIST these Scriptures to suit their own interpretations. And, not only do they twist these hard to apprehend Scriptures, but Peter says that they are, "... TWISTING ... THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES ALSO ..."!

And that my friend is the truth of it. Once one "twists" one Scripture to suit one’s personal interpretation, it often involves the twisting of MANY other Scriptures as well.
Let us conclude by reading the remaining words of Peter in verses 17 and 18 regarding this marvelous revelation of the oneness of the teachings of Peter and Paul:

"You, then, beloved, knowing this before, be on your guard lest, being led away with the deception of the dissolute, you should be falling from your own steadfastness. Yet be GROWING IN GRACE AND IN KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. to Him be glory now, as well as for the day of the eon. Amen."
Even here we notice that Peter isn’t talking about growing in our capacity to keep the law better or any such nonsense, but rather to be "growing in the GRACE and in KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
Peter and Paul taught precisely the same formula for salvation. One did not teach grace and the other works. There is NO DIFFERENCE in their teaching regarding how someone is actually saved.

ALL PEOPLES ARE SAVED BY THE SAME FORMULA
About thirty pages back we heard how Israel is NOT COMPLETE in Christ, and only PARDONED, not justified, and that they must MERIT, and have WORKS, and ENDURANCE to be saved. Of course, we found no Scripture stating such a thing. But now I want to remove any doubt that one might have regarding there being differences in the way, formula, manner, or whatever one wants to call it, in which the circumcision saints are saved and in which the uncircumcision saints are saved.

PAUL’S FORMULA FOR SALVATION
Here is probably the most simple and yet comprehensive statement in Paul’s writings regarding the formula and manner of one’s salvation:

"For in GRACE, through FAITH, are you SAVED, and this is not out of you; it is God’s approach present [or GIFT], NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should be boasting" (Eph. 2:7).

From all we have heard from our rapturists friends, we could suppose that Peter’s formula for being saved would have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with what Paul has taught us in Ephesians. Is that true? Hardly. Does Peter anywhere give us a formula as to how the circumcision saints are to be saved?

HERE IS PETER’S FORMULA FOR SALVATION
Here is Peter telling Paul how they teach that the Jewish and Gentile saints are to be saved:

"Peter said to them, ‘Men! Brethren! You are versed in the fact that from the days at the beginning God chooses among you, that through MY MOUTH the nations are to hear the word of THE evangel and BELIEVE. And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, and in NOTHING DISCRIMINATING BETWEEN US [JEWS] AND THEM [GENTILES], cleansing their hearts by FAITH. Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing A YOKE [Works of the Law] on the neck of the disciples which NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE ARE STRONG ENOUGH TO BEAR? BUT THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS WE ARE BELIEVING [THAT’S FAITH], TO BE SAVED IN THE MANNER EVEN AS THEY" (Acts 15:7-12).

Capitalized, italicized, and underlined--I can’t say it any stronger in the printed word without a microphone. Here Peter gives us the formula, if you will, for how they understood and taught salvation. Peter ASSURES us that it does NOT involve WORKS or LAW KEEPING.

"But THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS WE ARE BELIEVING, TO BE SAVED IN THE MANNER EVEN AS THEY."

This is the very SAME formula that Paul gives us in Ephesians. And to remove ALL DOUBT, Peter adds, "... EVEN AS THEY." Absolutely NO difference-- "even AS they." How can anyone contradict or argue with this plain, simple, profound, statement of Scripture? And again, as Peter wrote in 1st Peter 5:12, "... this is the TRUE GRACE OF GOD, in which you are to stand."

Paul tells us in 1st Thessalonians3:12-13,

"Now may the Lord cause you to increase and superabound in love for one another and for all, even as we also for you, to establish your hearts unblameable in holiness in front of our God and Father, in the PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS with ALL HIS SAINTS."

Zechariah (a prophet for the Jews) tells us the very same words in 14:7,

"And the Lord, my God, SHALL COME [presence], And ALL THE SAINTS WITH HIM" These are the SAME "ALL."

Therefore, we have scriptural proof that there is not a secret rapture whereby only PART of all the saints are gathered.

I know that these same men who contend for a secret rapture would strongly object to any who would teach that Rom. 5:18-19 makes TWO different groups out of "ALL mankind for condemnation" and "ALL mankind for life’s justifying." We KNOW that the group that is "condemned" is also the SAME group that is "justified." Why then make two different groups out of the identical phrases "ALL His saints" and "ALL His saints?"
It is obvious that someone was discouraging these churches claiming that Christ had failed to return in a manner as they had expected. (2nd Pet. 3:3-4). If this was at the time that Paul was under arrest in Rome, possibly he had no opportunity to get these words of comfort to these churches. So Silvanus, in his concern for them, looks for someone of real authority to comfort them.
Whether we approve or not, PETER is the logical choice of Silvanus. And it matters not whether these churches were established by Peter OR Paul, because Peter not only writes his own words of comfort to these churches but at the same time fully establishes that all of Paul’s epistles which Paul "writes to YOU" (2nd Pet. 3-15), were in FULL AGREEMENT with all "these things" (Ver. 14) that Peter is now telling them.
So there is a real problem with the theology in Consolation in Expectation page 14 when it states, "Even the Circumcision apostles, in their later ministries, give NO HINT of the glorious event which Paul is about to foretell." Contrariwise, we just read in Peter’s epistles about the SAME events in the same manner as Paul wrote about "THESE things" in "ALL the epistles" that "Paul ALSO writes to YOU." These churches were ALREADY very familiar with Paul’s teachings on Christ’s glorious return, and now Peter CONFIRMS these teachings by reiterating them in his own penned epistles.

THE SAINTS UNDER PETER’S AND PAUL’S CARE WERE NEVER DIVIDED
(39) "More than that, this ‘word of the Lord’ concerning our recall from death introduces A WEDGE between the recipients of Paul’s evangel and the Circumcision evangel [Peter’s] which eventually SPLIT THEM WIDE APART, so that, not only in their future expectation, but in ALL ELSE they constitute a distinct and DIFFERENT WORK OF GOD, dependent, not on Israel’s acceptance of the evangel, but on her rejection of God’s, Christ." (Capital emphasis are mine, italics are the authors).

ANSWER: Where is the "wedge" that "eventually SPLIT THEM WIDE APART?" Where does the Scriptures speak of such a wedge and such a splitting apart? I know of no such Scripture, and the above expositor failed to cite even one. But we do read this regarding the disciples and Paul:

"Now the APOSTLES and the ELDERS were gathered to see about this matter ... Peter said to them ... through my mouth the nations are to hear the word of the evangel and believe. And God ... testifies to THEM [gentiles], giving the holy spirit according AS TO US ALSO, and in NOTHING DISCRIMINATING between US and THEM ... But through the GRACE OF THE LORD Jesus, WE are believing to BE SAVED, IN A MANNER EVEN AS THEY.

"Now the entire multitude hushes and they heard Barnabas and Paul unfolding whatever signs and miracles God does among the nations through them ...

"Wherefore I [James] decide NOT to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God, but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood ...

"Then it seemed GOOD to the APOSTLES AND THE ELDERS, TOGETHER WITH THE WHOLE ECCLESIA [church]... WRITING THROUGH THEIR HAND ... The apostles and the elders and the brethren to the brethren ... REJOICE!

"Since, in fact, we hear that some coming out from us disturb you with words, dismantling your souls, whom WE GAVE NO ASSIGNMENT [commandment], it seems GOOD TO US, in coming to be of ONE ACCORD, choosing men, to send them to you with our BELOVED Barnabas and Paul, MEN WHO GIVE UP THEIR SOULS FOR THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST ... FOR IT SEEMS good to the holy spirit and to us IN NOTHING TO BE PLACING ONE MORE BURDEN ON YOU SAVE THESE ESSENTIALS ... Farewell!" (Acts 15:6-27).

Inspiring Scriptures indeed! This is probably the largest and most formal gathering of the leaders of the true ecclesia (church) of God in the history of the church. We have present, Paul, Barnabas, Silas, and Judas, Peter, James, the apostles, the elders, and the WHOLE CHURCH. The major issues of the law, works, grace, faith, the holy spirit, conduct, and salvation are at issue in this conference. Questions: Where is anyone "PERPLEXED?" Where is the "WEDGE between the recipients of Paul’s evangel and the Circumcision evangel?" Where do we read here (or anywhere) that Paul’s evangel and Peter’s evangel "eventually SPLIT THEM WIDE APART?" Where? Seriously, WHERE??

But we do read that what they accomplished at this meeting, "... SEEMS GOOD to the APOSTLES, and the ELDERS, TOGETHER with the WHOLE ECCLESIA." EVERYBODY was agreed. There were no "wedges" or "splits" between Paul and the Jerusalem elders, apostles, and ecclesia. They called Paul and Barnabas, "BELOVED." And, "... men who GIVE UP THEIR SOULS for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." They didn’t need to say that. Actually, they did need to say that. They had to because their hearts were so FILLED with love and admiration for Paul and Barnabas that they just had to express it. Later Peter again refers to "our BELOVED Paul." Wedges? Splits? Different gospels? No. Only love and unity. Does anyone suppose that the Holy Spirit caused Paul to write in Eph. 4:3-4,

"... endeavor to keep the UNITY of the spirit with the tie of PEACE: ONE body, and ONE spirit..."

If supposedly there WAS NO UNITY and the saints are supposedly SPLIT into two DIFFERENT groups which will be vivified at two DIFFERENT resurrections?
True, Israel did reject the gospel message (might I add that millions of Gentiles also rejected the gospel). But the fact that Jews (or Gentiles) rejected the gospel message has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER THE GOSPEL MESSAGE OF PAUL’S WAS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF PETER’S! Israel rejected the gospel message because,

"... God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day" (Rom. 11:8).

"They have not known nor understood: for He [God] hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand." (Isaiah 44:18).

"And He [God] said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye [all of you] indeed, but understand not; and see ye [all of you] indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed [saved]." (Isaiah 6:9-10).

And even Jesus says,

"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye [all of you] shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye [all of you] shall see, and shall not perceive: for this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal [save] them." (Matthew 13:14-15).

Paul also says,

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1st Corinthians 2:7-9).

"And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that [Old Testament, Old Covenant, the Law of Moses] which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless WHEN [not 'if' but 'WHEN'] it [their hearts] shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2nd Corinthians 3:13-16 & 4:3-4).

Here again is part of the reason I am so opposed to this "secret rapture" theory. The theory doesn’t point out any real existing divisions, IT CAUSES DIVISIONS that didn’t exist in the first place! This material may seem a little heavy, but bare with me because it is most important that we understand these things.

(40) "Paul was not merely sent to the Uncircumcision with the same evangel as Peter, but he had an evangel of the Uncircumcision which DIFFERED in its scope, its contents, and its expectation, from that of the Circumcision." (Capital emphasis mine).
ANSWER: This is probably the most overwhelming statement this author makes! If Paul’s gospel differed in SCOPE, CONTENTS, AND EXPECTATION, from Peter’s gospel then we of necessity have "A DIFFERENT GOSPEL"!! And notice carefully that this author is not suggesting that Paul’s gospel to the uncircumcision was different from that brought by "some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ" (Gal. 1:7), but that Paul's gospel to the uncircumcision was DIFFERENT FROM THE GOSPEL TO THE CIRCUMCISION. This would clearly mean that Peter’s gospel was a DIFFERENT GOSPEL from Paul’s gospel. What might the implications of such a thing be? What did Paul say regarding the teaching of "a different gospel?"

"But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel [gospel] to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema! As we have declared before and at present I am saying AGAIN, [this really IS serious] if anyone is bring you an evangel [gospel] beside that which you accepted, let him be anathema!" (Gal. 1:8-9).

"ANATHEMA!" [Authorized Version = accursed]. How many times did Paul ever REPEAT a whole sentence in his writings? I don’t think we should take this lightly. Whenever anyone devises a doctrine that is unscriptural, it will ALWAYS present a plethora problems in other areas of the Scriptures.
If Peter really had a "different" gospel or evangel from Paul, and Peter would have on occasion taught in one of Paul’s evangelized areas, would Peter be ANATHEMA (or ACCURSED)? Does anyone really believe such a thing? Peter? The HEAD APOSTLE Peter, ANATHEMATIZED for the very gospel he was taught by his Lord and Paul’s Lord?
And what if Paul had an occasion to teach circumcision saints with a gospel that was "different" from the gospel they receive by the apostles, then what? Notice what John says in 2nd John 10-11:

"If anyone is coming to you and is not bringing this teaching, be not taking him into your home, and say not to him, ‘Rejoice!’ For he who is saying to him to be rejoicing is participating in his WICKED ACTS."

This is not hard to understand. If anyone brought a "different" gospel to the circumcision saints it was a "wicked act!" If anyone brought a different gospel to the uncircumcision saints, they were to be "anathema!" But even 2nd Pet. 3:15 shows how they welcomed "ALL THE EPISTLES" of Paul which contained Paul’s gospel. And for sure they didn’t call Paul "wicked," but rather "BELOVED BROTHER PAUL." How then is it even conceivable that Paul’s gospel and the gospel of Peter and John were DIFFERENT?

"Now, answering, Jesus said to him, ‘Happy are you Simon Bar-Jonah [Peter], for flesh and blood does not reveal it to you, but My Father Who is in the heavens. Now I, also, am saying to you that you are Peter, and on this rock will I be building My ecclesia [church], and gates of the unseen [hades] shall not be prevailing against it. I will be giving you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth shall be those having been loosed in the heavens" (Matt. 16:17-19).
To how many people in the history of the world did God ever speak such words? This man Peter (who apparently was crucified upside down for the love of his Lord) did not preach a different kind of gospel for which he would be "anathematized"!
Maybe it’s time we give Peter the kind of respect and honor that he deserves!
Is there a Scripture that actually says that Paul evangelized the same gospel as the apostles? Yes, actually, there is.

"‘He [Paul] who once was persecuting us, now is EVANGELIZING the faith which once he RAVAGED’ And they glorified God in me [Paul]" (Gal. 1:23-24). Paul was not ravaging Paul’s gospel. Paul was ravaging the Apostles gospel, and that is the VERY GOSPEL HE IS NOW "EVANGELIZING!"
Let us suppose for a moment (just a moment mind you), that Peter and Paul really did have and did preach DIFFERENT gospels. What problems might that create? First of all, it would mean that not only did they have different gospels from each other, but also that each one would have had to have their own separate or different gospels as well. Peter would have had to have two different gospels and Paul would have had to have two different gospels. You see Paul often went first to the JEWS (which according to this theory) would have required one gospel, and then when he taught the Gentiles, he would have needed a second different gospel. And since Peter taught primarily to the Jews, he would have needed one gospel for them, but since he also was the first apostle to go to the Gentiles, he would have also needed a second different gospel for them! NONSENSE!

All of God's TRUE servants--whether Jesus, Peter, Paul, Apollos, James, John, etc were ALWAYS IN AGREEMENT! And if they were divided then God's Word holds no weight in the life of His followers.

I pray God opens your heart and mind, not just your eyes. That YOU and I may be ONE as YHVH, YESHUA, PAUL, PETER, JAMES, JOHN, THE APOSTLES, ELDERS, AND GOD'S TRUE, ONE, SPIRITUAL CHURCH ARE ONE!

Love dearly from Ricardo

[Chaplain Pat Harris]

The Apostle Paul accepted money because it was offered to him and rightly so; but I have not read where he stated that the people/church were suppose to support him.

I have found that we could never really be "paid" for what we are expected to do. Furthermore, if we do it right, we invest so much time, energy and resources into our ministry that it can never be repaid. Therefore it is imperative that the "Servant of the Lord" be accommodated in such a way that is befitting and fair. If the "Servant" is a "workman" then he/she is worthy...".

We are all servants, and as long as we are living in obedience to the Word, we will be blessed. Giving our time, energy and resources is our reasonable service. So, if we are expecting to be "paid" for doing the Lord's work, we should probably take it to the Lord; not to His other servants. After all, He made the promise to supply all our need, the other servants made no such promise.

A pastor should get paid for his services, Pastors go to school have to pay for there own tuition. A true Pastor wont to serve the people of God fulltime. He needs time to seek the lord, pray,fast and not worry about bills and everything else like that.It is not easy being a pastor it is a lot of hard work. You have to deal with people that do not wont you to have anything but they are able to have whatever they like. They will tell you, a pastor should not worry about a new car and they go by themselves a new car. People do not respect pastors like they use to. If it was not for pastors obeying God a lot of people will still be on drugs, fornicates, gossipers, adulteries, Etc. God uses man to complete his purpose.

There are many servants (non pastors) who attend school and pay their own tuition, with a heart to serve in ministry full time. None of us want to worry about bills, etc. That's why it's important that we become good stewards over what God has given us. All of us are dealing with people for whatever reason. Respect comes from knowing how to love - not paying your bills. God delivers those in bondage to drugs, fornication, etc., not pastors. "God uses man (be it pastors, teachers, ushers, deacons, etc., and even the unsaved) to complete his purpose."

Just making a statement; not looking for a debate.

Peace

[YaaKov and Hadassah Terry]

Shalom, shalom aleichem...