"TQ" (Trivia Question) "Who was the first to be baptized in the bible?"

[Maurice Edwards]

Enjoy!

[Cynthia D. Johnson]

In the New Testament, I believe it was Jesus... If you're counting the Old Testament I believe it was Noah...

[Maurice Edwards]

I'm at work so I'll post this real quick and I'll continue the dialog later. I wouldn't consider Noah being saved by water a baptism. By nature baptism is immersion in water and Noah never touched the water. He was saved from God's wrath by way of water and a boat of course. While others were destroyed by the water/flood in God's wrath. In 1 Peter 3:21 I believe he says baptism doth now save us because baptism is apart of the salvation process and experience. Although justification is by faith alone, the "glorification" in salvation is obtained by persevering and being obedient to all the Lord's commands/Word. As Noah was obedient in building the ark and was saved. Jesus said, " if you continue in my Word, then are ye my disciples indeed". Jesus told John, "it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness", in baptizing him. (Matthew 3:15) Fulfilling all righteousness is to do all that is right in God's eyes to maintain a right standing in God. Jesus said, "he that believes "and" is baptized shall be saved". Peter said, "repent "and" be baptized'. (Acts 2;38). Notice in Acts 19 those believers hadn't been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but unto John's baptism. But when they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, Paul laid hands on the and the Holy Ghost came upon them. So I see baptism as being more than a symbol, but obedience that causes a spiritual manifestation in the salvation experience. As Romans 6:4 says we are raised in newness of life.  Again.... I know justification is by faith alone..... But I don't think one will be saved if they disobey the command to be baptized. Obedience is definitely "Salvific", as in the parable of Noah. And I think Jesus was very clear in Matthew 28 how discipleship was supposed to be conducted. Lastly, what do you both think about this?

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (1 Corinthians 10:2)

[Maurice Edwards]

I'm at work so I'll post this real quick and I'll continue the dialog later. I wouldn't consider Noah being saved by water a baptism. By nature baptism is immersion in water and Noah never touched the water. He was saved from God's wrath by way of water and a boat of course. While others were destroyed by the water/flood in God's wrath. In 1 Peter 3:21 I believe he says baptism doth now save us because baptism is apart of the salvation process and experience. Although justification is by faith alone, the "glorification" in salvation is obtained by persevering and being obedient to all the Lord's commands/Word. As Noah was obedient in building the ark and was saved. Jesus said, " if you continue in my Word, then are ye my disciples indeed". Jesus told John, "it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness", in baptizing him. (Matthew 3:15) Fulfilling all righteousness is to do all that is right in God's eyes to maintain a right standing in God. Jesus said, "he that believes "and" is baptized shall be saved". Peter said, "repent "and" be baptized'. (Acts 2;38). Notice in Acts 19 those believers hadn't been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but unto John's baptism. But when they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, Paul laid hands on the and the Holy Ghost came upon them. So I see baptism as being more than a symbol, but obedience that causes a spiritual manifestation in the salvation experience. As Romans 6:4 says we are raised in newness of life.  Again.... I know justification is by faith alone..... But I don't think one will be saved if they disobey the command to be baptized. Obedience is definitely "Salvific", as in the parable of Noah. And I think Jesus was very clear in Matthew 28 how discipleship was supposed to be conducted. Lastly, what do you both think about this?

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (1 Corinthians 10:2)

[Maurice Edwards]

You responded to my question by answering Noah, according to 1 Peter 3:18-21, and verse 20 says he was saved by water. So I assumed, as the other young lady stated, that one of your answers was Noah. Did I read that wrong? I replied by saying Noah (eight souls) were saved by water according to 1 Peter 3 verse 20. Saved, not baptized was my point, as I asked who was the first to be baptized in my OP. So when I said I don't consider him being saved by water a baptism, I was saying the text you provided is talking about him being saved by water, so I don't consider him as one being baptized. I didn't say, you said he was saved by water. But you used a saved by water figure and text for a baptism question. If baptism is in view, as you stated, concerning Noah, wasn't the analogy concerning being saved in the context? Remember you said it was in view. In view of what? Being baptized into Christ? I don't think so! If water baptism is just a symbol of being baptized into Christ, how is this in view in the Noah analogy which pictures him and NT believers being saved as verse 21 says baptism (baptisma) doth now save us? Peter said Noah's story is a like figure, verse 21. Noah was obedient and was saved by water. We are obedient to Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, etc... and are saved. Jesus said, "he who believes and is baptized", Peter said, "repent and be baptized". We are saved by grace, through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8). Faith in Christ entails keeping all that he commanded us (Matthew 28:19-20). And Jesus clearly commanded his disciples/apostles to baptize. Paul was establishing that his primary mission wasn't to baptize but to preach the gospel. But in obedience to the Lord, he did baptize several times in Acts. In the same text you provided verses 14-16, he gives you a short list of those he could remember. We are commanded to believe, confess, repent, be baptized, etc.... In Romans 10:9-10 it doesn't list repent, as you said it's one of the elements, or be baptized, but can we be saved without repenting? Is Romans 10:9-10 all there is to salvation? Seems to say that right? In verse 13 it says whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Do we go with just that? Systematic Theology teaches us to discover what the "whole" bible teaches on a given topic. I believe total salvation is achieved by being obedient to all of Christ's commands concerning discipleship and salvation. Baptism is a prerequisite before Christ returns. Or do you think we can be disobedient, refuse to be baptized, and still be saved? If your answer is no...... Then baptism is essential! 

[Maurice Edwards]

Yes, Moses' baptism is the answer. I didn't include the type of baptism to make the question harder to answer.

[Maurice Edwards]

Sorry, I meant the people were baptized unto Moses. And no.... Not NT water baptism. LOL...... I'm usually posting at work and rushing.

[Maurice Edwards]

On the Luke 11 issue.... I see Jesus continuing his introduction of the power of the Holy Spirit. In Luke 9 he dealt with the twelve. In Luke 10 he dealt with the seventy. And in Luke 11 I see him using the certain disciple's petition for Jesus to teach them how to pray to admonish all of his followers to desire the Holy Spirit in their prayers. But I don't see asking for the Holy Spirit being consistant in Acts after Jesus' ascension. In Acts 1:5 he proclaims that they who had already experienced his power for service would now be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Yes, a very distinct experience with the Holy Spirit "promised" in Joel 2, John 14 and 16. They would recieve the baptism and filling of the comforter, teacher, sealer, power and gift giver. "All" believers would as a promise to the sons and daughters. (Joel 2:28) This would be "sent" and "given", not asked for.

[Maurice Edwards]

And I think the asking for the Holy Spirit in Luke 11 and the promise of it in Acts 1 is totally different. Remember..... Jesus was responding to them asking him to teach them how to pray in Luke 11. And he gave them a parable of "asking". In Acts 1 and 2 it is the fulfillment of a promise! (Joel 2) And Peter said you "shall" recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost. No asking is consistant in Acts.

[Maurice Edwards]

In Luke 9:1 Jesus gave the twelve power (Dynamis)

1) strength power, ability

a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth

b) power for performing miracles

c) moral power and excellence of soul

d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth

e) power and resources arising from numbers

f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

 

The Holy spirit "given" and "sent" in Acts is a promise from Joel 2:28, John 14:16-17, John 16:12-14. That would not just give certain people power or fill certain people, but the power of the Holy Spirit would abide in and empower "all" believers as well as comfort, and lead them into all truth. For he had many things to say to them but they couldn't bare them then. In Luke 11 he gives them comfort in knowing that the Father's children can ask, and they will receive. They didn't ask him for the Holy Spirit, they asked him to teach them how to pray. And they didn't reveal to him what they desired to pray for. But Jesus said the Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. Notice not all who believed on him and followed him received power or were filled with the Holy Spirit. Only certain disciples were given power..... The twelve, the seventy. And only few were filled with the Holy Ghost before Jesus' ascension..... John in his mother's womb, Elisabeth, Zacharias. So why did Jesus meantion the Father would give the Holy Spirit to those who ask when nobody asked for the Holy Spirit? But later proclaim he would pray that the father would give them his spirit after he left them? Jesus was revealing to them that they needed to ask for the Holy Spirit in prayer. Why?  

[Maurice Edwards]

So are you saying that the power he admonishes them to ask for in Luke 11 is a different power than the power he gave them in Luke 9:1? I agree that the filling and baptism of the Holy Ghost is different of course. I think I established this in my views as well. But I'm trying to understand this power that you say has to be asked for. Forget about the Pentecostal experience with the Holy Ghost context, because we agree on that. I've been rushing so I apologize for not thoroughly combing your posts.

[Maurice Edwards]

Holy Spirit in Luke 11 is "Pneuma"

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)

b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")

c) never referred to as a depersonalised force

2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated

a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides

b) the soul

3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting

a) a life giving spirit

b) a human soul that has left the body

c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel

1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men

2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ

4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one

a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.

5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)

a) of the wind, hence the wind itself

b) breath of nostrils or mouth

 

Yes, this is much different than power, (Dynamis) in Luke 9. Holy Ghost in Acts 1:8 is "Pneuma" as well. In the "Greek" Luke 11 and Acts 1:8 are the same! Where do we go from here?

[Maurice Edwards]

As far as baptism is concerned...... Wayne Grudem's view explains what I've been trying to convey. He says, "Baptism, then, is not necessary for salvation. But it is necessary if we are to be obedient to Christ, for he commanded baptism for all who believe in him. So I believe faith accomplishes initial salvation, but we are being saved, and shall be saved. Complete salvation is gained through obedience to all the Lord's commands and perseverance. Good discussion!