John had said earlier that he (John) was baptizing with water but when Jesus comes He (jesus) will baptize with the Holy Ghost. This means John's kind of baptism is water and Jesus' kind of baptism is Holy Spirit.

And so if Jesus admonishes His disciples to get baptized those who believe in Him, will He be referring to John's kind (water) or Jesus' own kind (Holy Spirit).

Note that Jesus said those who will be saved are those who believe AND are baptized Mark 16:16. Am yet to meet anyone who claims one will not be saved because is not baptized in water. But if my understanding of 1 Cor. 12:13 is correct, then one who is not baptized of the Spirit is not a member of the Body of Christ and hence cannot be saved.

Finally, Eph 4:5 says "..... one Baptism". Is it the Holy Ghost baptism or water baptism?

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Did you say there are three or four? You said three, and after the three you now said "lastly", making them four.

Well, did you say The Holy Spirit is the agent that baptizes the believer "into Christ" and "into His body," the church? Are you then saying the baptism of the Spirit is the same as the baptism into Christ and the baptism into his body. Therefore Ephesians 4:5 refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit (into His body, Christ, etc.).

I can see you are really are seminary product. Seminaries have created more doubts and confusion in Christianity than the "unlearned" Is the church re-visiting Acts 4 where the learned could not comprehend the things of the Spirit but the unlearned were confident in them?

All these various "schools of thoughts" on various teachings of the Bible were developed by scholars. And I hope you agree God would not give two or more schools of thoughts on one issue.

I believe there are only two baptisms - water and the Holy Spirit (into Christ, His Body, etc). But I would not conclude now as to whether only one or all are for the Believer.


My elaboration gave you other things to talk about. The question is just this - which baptism was Jesus referring to?

Bearing in mind that it was important for the Holy Spirit to include John 4:2 in the Bible - (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,).

However, lets try to address the question and then we may proceed or digress elsewhere

Rev Watson,

Well, sorry if I did a personal attack on you. That was not my intent, but I see clearly that in trying to give a general opinion on my thoughts on those who think seminaries have it all, I used your example and that makes it appear I was attacking you. Though you were the one who seemed to start attacking anyone who had any misgiving with seminaries in a direct response to my post (which makes it apparent you were attacking me), I would not want to bring in any justifications but to call for a "truce".

I am here to share and to learn but not to attack, as you might have noticed earlier that when someone attacked you on my comments, i wrote that that should not be the way we should go.

Also, I need to admit that your submissions make me see other opinions on the teachings of the Bible. Paul said we should not be divided by doctrine and so I believe as we all believe in the Lord Jesus we are in one family.


Assuming my apology is accepted, i will proceed on the issue.


My little understanding of English and my receiving the kingdom of God (and hence it's message) as a child gave me the understanding I got, ie you gave four types of baptism though you mention there were three. And you summed up by saying the three were all in ONE - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.


I now see your answer. I asked for you to be more specific because I wanted it to be plain enough so that anyone reading the post may not presume the answer being given by anyone.

To get a more clarification from you, does it mean Jesus was not instructing that those who believe should be baptized in water?

The baptism that Jesus was referring to was the Baptism into the Holy Spirit, because it is Christ, only, that does this.


So it appears Jesus never actually instructed to baptize in water. Why is the church so much involved in it as if it is a prerequisite to salvation?

     Matthew 3:4, "And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey."  John was in the wilderness and those people who can't understand how you are still surviving after they fired you from your place of employment.  Those people who can't figure out why you still haven't lost your home to foreclosure when you haven't worked in six months.  They can't figure out why you haven't lost your mind by now due to your situation and circumstance.

     John says that you cannot allow what is happening on the outside move you away from the the word of God that is on the inside.  Just like a camel has water on the inside, God has given you his word (living water).  That is what keeps me clothed in my right mind.  Let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus.

      The leather girdle protects the reproductive organs and God wants you to know that life may not have been very productive for you up till now.  You have been going through a desert place (wilderness).  You have not been seeing in real increase or productivity in your life.  God is saying that it is time to reproduce (to cause to exist and start again).

     His meat was locust.  The desert locust in this region go through a period called a "recession" just before they get ready to go and reclaim 20% of the land.  God is saying that he is about to restore double of what you have lost because you have been standing by his word.

     "Wild Honey" is all the times when you were going through the unexplainable situations because you were standing on his word and standing on his promises, the only thing that your critics will be able to say when they see you again is "WILD!"  They are unable to comprehend and explain the blessings of God that are on your life.

     In certain passages of text, the "water" simple means to be immersed, submersed or covered with the "word".  John 3:5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."  Here we see our spiritual mother (word) and our spiritual father (Holy Spirit) in the life of those who are born again.  The Holy Spirit and the Word work together to bring spiritual life.

     The literal act of water baptism only affords a physical connection to God.  The same as wearing a cross around the neck, wearing ash on the forehead or taking communion.  Many people only have a physical relationship and are not spiritually connected to God.

     Matthew 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:"  John's baptism with water was to symbolize that people had received the word of God by faith as a direct result of his preaching.

     John preached, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  Repent is the Greek "Metanoeo" meaning to change one's mind.  Our minds are influenced by every word that enters our minds.  The devil is always trying to get inside of your head through the television, U.S. mail, friends and family, etc.  It is the mind that controls every conscious and unconscious move of the body.  When you have the mind of the "Kingdom" then you will begin to see the move of God (hand) manifest in your situation a whole lot sooner than having to wait 40 years (wandering in desert/wilderness) 

     The Holy Ghost and fire in the text are connected to Matthew 3:12, " Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."  There is a separation of the wheat from the chaff.  There is a separation of the word (logos also means "mind") of God from the words of the world.

     When you are baptized with the Holy Spirit the word of God becomes a living word.  Wind winnowing is a process that separates the wheat from the chaff.  The Holy Spirit will put a check in your spirit whenever the word that you are receiving is not God's word.  Paul's spirit was stirred in him over idolatry and false doctrine in Athens.  

     John's baptism was with the word of God unto repentance.  There is something about the "shoes" in Matthew 3:11.  John's baptism could only take you as far as repentance.  The baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire will cause a person to walk in righteousness, to walk in holiness.  There are many people who know the word of God today but they are not living according to the word of God. 

     Is there only one baptism today that comes by the word through the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus?  Ephesians 4:5, " One Lord, one faith, one baptism..."   

So what's your answer? Which baptism was Jesus referring to?

     Baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire (one baptism).  Matthew 3:16, "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" 

    Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire at the time of his water baptism while acting in his human capacity.  He was immediately empowered by the Holy Spirit with spiritual power against the devil by using the word of God. 

     Accepting Jesus Christ by faith through his word symbolizes the water baptism at which time the Holy Spirit/anointing comes upon you giving you power for Kingdom service.  We call this the anointing.  People have different anointings by the Holy Spirit for different assignments.       

So Jesus actually never commanded water baptism (John's baptism). So why is the church so much involved in it?
There is nothing wrong with literal water baptism. The same as wearing a cross. It is purely symbolical.

The spiritual connotation is to be covered or submerged with the word of God. The negative impact is that water baptism by itself only promotes a physical connection with God. Inevitably we see people having no spiritual connection.

People cannot stay married together when all they have is a physical connection. Eventually this physical attraction is going to come to an end. The physical attraction is only concerned with self-gratification and is always looking for something more attractive.

Pitbull, you started by saying there is nothing wrong with water baptism and ended giving its negative impact. If it has a negative impact then there must be something wrong with it.

Well, I had not even mentioned whether it is wrong or good. I am only bringing to bear the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ never instructed it, yet the church upholds it as if it is a commandment from the Lord. All because apparently we did not take our time to see that Jesus was referring to the Spirit's baptism (which is His kind of baptism according to John the Baptist), but not water baptism in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19.


We have all agreed earlier that Jesus was referring to His kind of baptism and not John's kind of baptism.

The physical attraction/connection is what started the relationship between you and your wife. Many people approach Chirst looking for a natural blessing (healing, finances, relationships). There is nothing wrong with the initial physical attraction. You are continually developing a spiritual relationship with God (wife) until you leave the earth. If all you have is water baptism than you have no spiritual connection. There is nothing wrong with water baptism in its symbolical aspects. Please give your discourse on the subject.

I drew attention to you mentioning the negative impact so you will notice that you seem to know there is something not right but may not have identified exactly what.

I understand your point very well. And I believe we could use any means to draw men to God and make them feel it. We may draw a hindu to God with certain attractions other than what we may use to draw a moslem. Similarly, I believe the approach to draw disciples of John the baptist should not become a formula for all.


Finally, I believe the time for "ordinances" and shadows are past. We are in the times of the reality. I don't think its appropriate to still use certain shadows as incense, candle, etc because the reality has come.


1 John 5:6-8 (KJV, some versions do not have verse 7) teaches us that water and blood are all symbols but the reality is the Spirit. I wouldn't waste time with the shadows, except in peculiar cases like you are citing, I may do for a buddhist, moslem, disciple of John the baptist, etc according to how they may be attracted to God, but in all I think men ought to be told the total truth from the onset.


It will be very wrong for me to have lust as the starting point for loving my wife.


Please examine the workbook and lesson notes I have attached. God bless you.



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