Black Preaching Network

In reading the different dicussions on the site I love it because I am always looking to talk the Word over with fellow believers, and were there are disagreements I love to hear the different view points wether oe not i agree with them. And during the course of reading I have noticed that there are some Messianic Jews that add to the disussions on here ( and some are right on it), but I am wondering why would people who were gentiles by birth need to follow something that was never meant for them i.e. the Law.

Paul wrote many of his letters to refute the very fact of judiazers telling gentile believers that they had to follow the Law as well as believe in Jesus. Or even the fact that Peter and Paul had a disagreement over this very subject:

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is my belief that the Law was given by God to the Jews. But Christ came for All, and fulfilled the Law so why do I have to go back to following something that has already been fullfilled? Very interested in hearing your thoughts!!

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The Torah of the Lord is not only for Jews, but for all mankind. It is the whole duty of man to keep God's commandments(Ecc 12). We keep God's Torah to show love obedience, and fear toward God. The Lord says if you love him, you will keep his commandments. 1 John 5:3 states that the love of God is keeping his Torah.

We are not saved by keeping the Torah, but we show our obedience, love, and fear of God by keeping it. When the bible says the law is fulfilled, it does not mean it was done way with, and destroyed forever. It means that it bought about the law's establishment, completion, true intents, etc. If there is no law, then there is no sin.

You as a gentile keep Torah because you love God, and not because it saves you. The Lord Jesus came to redeem his people with the blood of the new covenant, yet the law is still here as our standard of holiness, and we are still be be obedient to God via the law.
I dont understand God gave the Torah or the Law to the Jews. I have the expressed privilage to follow God because Jesus made the way John 3:16. So Romans 5:20-21 says
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matthew 7:24-29
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. [28] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: [29] For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Jesus himself throughout His entire ministry was fulfilling the Law, he closed out the Law and the old covenant the night of the Lord's supper;

Luke 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

So do you not believe that the new testament scripture is God breathed?
I dont understand God gave the Torah or the Law to the Jews. I have the expressed privilage to follow God because Jesus made the way John 3:16. So Romans 5:20-21 says
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Originally, God gave the Torah to his people. All who joined themselves to the Jewish faith, Judaism, at that time, had to abide by Torah. Ruth, a famous Gentile, in the book of Ruth, was a Gentile. She worshiped pagan gods. But, she finally converted to Judaism, foresoke her gods, and stood in obedience to Torah.

In the New Testament, the Torah has not been done away with, neither was it destroyed. Romans 3:31 states that faith does not destroy Torah, but it establishes it, or upholds it. Most Christians do not understand the covenant Jesus made with Israel. It was a "blood" covenant", and not a covenat to end Torah. The Apostles kept Torah, and all the Gentile converts to Messianic Judaism kept Torah. So should we in this 21st century.


Jesus himself throughout His entire ministry was fulfilling the Law, he closed out the Law and the old covenant the night of the Lord's supper;

Matt 5 states that Jesus did not come to destroy, or even close out the law. He came to bring about its effectiveness, obedience, performance, establishment. The night of the Lord's supper, he was basically showing them that the time is at hand when Priestly sacrifices will be no more, and that he(Jesus), will be the sacrifice once and for all(Hebrews 10).

So do you not believe that the new testament scripture is God breathed?

Yes, I do. Paul has simply been misunderstood by Christians for centuries. He has also been twisted. People have twisted his words to their own destruction, Peter said. We should seek God on what Paul really meant.
So bring me your understanding of Paul and Peters argument? Because it's clear to me through the scriptures that Paul was saying that dont try to make a gentile a jew. Philippians 3 he says that we are the are the circumsion who worship God in the spirit
Philip. 3:2-3
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

It appears to me that throughout his ministry Paul who was called to preach to the gentiles never was trying to make the gentiles convert to judaism.
I'd say that Peter probably did not understand enough of Paul's ministry to Gentiles. Jews were taught not to even let Gentiles into their house, or eat with them. Peter withdrew himself from that, along with barnabas. They were acting hypocritically against the Gospel(Galatians 2). And so I think the debate between them two was just that. They NEVER debated the Torah, and if Gentiles should follow it.

I can agree. Paul was never trying to convert them to Judaism, but to Messianic Judaism. In that day, Judaism alone had many denominations. There were strick pharisees, who required circumsion & observance of the law for salvation(Acts 15).

Circumsion was never required for salvation. In fact, Abraham was justified before he was commanded to be circumised.
But there is no salvation in keeping the law. If you attempt to keep the law you will fail, Paul called it a schoolmaster

Galatians 3:19-29

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
But there is no salvation in keeping the law. If you attempt to keep the law you will fail, Paul called it a schoolmaster

You are truly correct on that. There is no salvation in keeping the law. But, keeping the law shows your obedience, love, and fear toward God(Duet 6, 28, John 14, 1 John 2:3, 5:3, to name a few).

If I attempt to keep the law, I will fail. That cannot be true, because if it was impossible to keep the law, then Jesus, or God would not have commanded us to keep the law. When they said,"Keep the commandments", they mean to practice them, and to bring about their fulfillments. He does not mean keep them perfectly.

The law is our school master, yes. Its purpose was to point us to Messiah. When we go to Messiah, we are to repent of our sins, and convert to his lifestyle, and that is---full obedience to God via his Torah. Virtually all Christians believe that not being under the law means to not follow it, and do away with it, but thats far from the truth.

When the bible states that we are no longer under the law, it means that we are not subject to the law's curse----condemnation(sin and death). Christ Jesus became a curse for us, that we might live, but the law is still in effect for us to obey it, and we are to carry it out.
Hey whats up BG,

Israel, for over 3,000 yrs, followed the Mosaic Law. Jesus, and his Apostles kept the Law, and the early Church kept the law. Christians have the "new covenant" in a pool of misunderstanding. If you go back to the mentioning of the new agreement, in Jer 31, it states that Yahweh will write on our hearts, his Torah. The Torah is not done away with. The covenant Jesus made with us was the blood covenant---to save us from the curse of the law.

1 John 5:3 states that the love of God is KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS.
The Torah was written on our heart. That is correct, but its still consider the law(Torah) of God. What's written in the Torah is our standard of holiness, and followers of Yahshua must adhere to them. Obeying the Torah is an act of obedience, love, and fear towards God, and not an act towards salvation.

The phrase "renewed" heart is just another word for repentance from one's sins. When a person truly turns to Jesus Christ, like the Apostles of the early church, they get inline with Yeshua's teachings, which includes Obedience to the Torah. Yeshua did not actually have to teach them the Torah, for all of them were Jews themselves, but Torah was to be taught to Gentiles in the synagouges(Acts 15).
Jesus, the Apostles, and the early apostolic Church walked the same way in Torah, like the ancient children of Israel. Nothing has changed my brother. One cannot follow the law, and not do it like the ancient who were the first audience to receive it! We are not under is the ministration of condemnation, but we are under the law's obedience.
So here it is I like lobster, so are you saying that if I eat lobster God will send me to hell?
Hebrews 10:26-31

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