In reading the different dicussions on the site I love it because I am always looking to talk the Word over with fellow believers, and were there are disagreements I love to hear the different view points wether oe not i agree with them. And during the course of reading I have noticed that there are some Messianic Jews that add to the disussions on here ( and some are right on it), but I am wondering why would people who were gentiles by birth need to follow something that was never meant for them i.e. the Law.

Paul wrote many of his letters to refute the very fact of judiazers telling gentile believers that they had to follow the Law as well as believe in Jesus. Or even the fact that Peter and Paul had a disagreement over this very subject:

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is my belief that the Law was given by God to the Jews. But Christ came for All, and fulfilled the Law so why do I have to go back to following something that has already been fullfilled? Very interested in hearing your thoughts!!

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Excellent! Understanding the Scripture is so important and I am so glad to hear that Rev. Eric is going to chew on what you wrote. Blessings and Shalom!

Brother, My Brother. If only you would actually take an ear to the historical context of Galatians. Sha'ul, when stating the phrase in verse 1,"you who desire to be under the law", in no way, was speaking of breaking the law of Yahweh. I want you to be honest with me. I want to know have you considered studying the historical background of the book of Galatians?

I encourage you to do that, because only by doing that, you will actually understand the meaning behind Sha'uls words such as,"being under the law". It may suprise you of the meaning you will see.

Dare to explore?????????????????
Note these comparisons made by Paul, commentary here from a Bible Commentary:

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision ... but faith working through love (Galatians 5:6).
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision ... but a new creature (Galatians 6:15).
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision ... but the keeping of the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 7:19).

From the above comparison, it can be seen that "faith working by love" means the same thing as being baptized into Christ in order to become "a new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17); nor is it limited to that, for it also means "keeping the commandments of God."

"Faith operative through love" must be identical with, or involve "the keeping of God's commandments," and "a new creature." A close examination of the first of these three sentences will show that this is so.


Now, my dear brothers, was Paul confused?

Or have Paul's writings been misinterpreted by our modern translators, as I have shown Mackey in his outrageous statement that Gods law was a "Sin Generator." To repeat, the law was a "guilt generator" to bring people to repentance. NO ONE TEXTS ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE can be found to support Mackey's false, heretical teaching!

Once again, if that were so, why would Paul here be speaking so FAVORABLY about the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD??? If they were to "generate sin"???

Paul in these texts of Romans and 1 Corinthians, is agreeing with 1 John (who agrees with Jesus and James, and John the Revelator):

[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Those of you who ONLY quote the writings of Paul to support your lawless tenancies, are actually DISOBEYING the same Paul who said ito use ALL SCRIPTURES (which when he wrote this was applied only to the OT writings):

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So why not use OTHER WRITINGS OF PAUL, and possibly even quote the other Apostles writings, like those of James or even quote Jesus sometime?????

Or is it that you cannot find permission for your enmity, rebellion towards God commandments in Jesus' writings?

P.S.: The Sabbath is repeatedly called a "commandment of God" when BEFORE the law was formally given on Sinai, when some in Israel broke the Sabbath when the Manna was first given.

We read in:
Ex. 16:
25] And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
[26] Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.[27] And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
[28] And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

[29] See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
[30] So the people rested on the seventh day.
Shalom to all,

One thing we can all agree on is that Satan has never changed his intent to deceive. God Said I am Yahweh and I don't change.
Dan 7:25 and it speaks words against the Most High, and it wears out the set-apart ones of the Most High, and it intends to change appointed times and laws

So is God speaking the truth as He warns us through Daniel? Just look at the fruit all around, the trouble we see is not because blessing is being poured out over the earth. God is not pleased at what is taking place and He is warning the son of the earth to come back to the old land mark but you say I will not.

Jer 6:16 Thus said יהוה, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and find rest for yourselves. But they said, ‘We do not walk in it.’

Jer 6:19 “Hear, O earth! See, I am bringing evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not listened to My words, nor My law – and they rejected it.

Those of you who choose the path of traditions over the commandments must begin to search the scripture to find truth. Yahshua and Yahweh are one they do not disagree no matter what other say Yahshua said I and the father are One (Echad) or do you not believe His word. Your belief is shone by your deeds. A good place to start is to start looking at and keeping His Sabbath it is the 7th day Yahshua did not change it man did. There are multiple Sabbaths during certain Holy Days as many as 3 and some may occur as a double Sabbath. Each of these accounts for special memorial of remembrances to God for His mighty acts. This is why Yahshua said take ”My yoke upon you and learn of Me” My way not your traditions.

Isa 1:14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Luk 16:15 so He said to them, “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but Elohim knows your hearts, because what is highly thought of among men is an abomination in the sight of Elohim.

Or will you be one of those He says depart from Me you worker of lawlessness you know the rest.
Shalom AliYah,

1st when we look at this from the surface there are some hidden elements such as her real identity not revealed but with her mouth she said your God will be my God & your people will be my people. Remember the conversation at the beginning of this chapter speaks of clean & unclean. Yahshua addresses the tradition of the Pharisee & Scribe by which they nullify the Torah. He says it is not what goes into a man that defiles (speaking only of washing hands not permitting eating unclean meats) him but what come out of him because he speaks from his heart. Ruth spoke from her heart the acceptance of Yahweh and His laws. Now her ID was lost to her. There is no reference to converting to Judaism.

For disobedience he said you will be cut off from the people, what people? His people the identity was lost over the year by assimilation. What Ruth represented should sound familiar, "cut off from the people" SLAVERY lost ID a barrier for African American descendants.

Lev 17:10 ‘And any man of the house of Yisra’ĕl, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any blood, I shall set My face against that being who eats blood, and shall cut him off from among his people.

Num 9:13 ‘But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and has failed to perform the Passover, that same being shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of יהוה at its appointed time – that man bears his sin.

Yahshua is not coming for all people that's why He said I only came for the Lost House of Yisrael. In the time of trouble there will be those who will say I have done all these things in your name He will say depart from me I don't know you workers of lawlessness. You did not meet Me on My Sabbath, nor did you keep My commandments or My Holy Days (Lev 23) I DON"T KNOW you! For those who think that is the Jews remember they did not recieve Yashua the first time Rome 11.
This Canaanite woman came with her faith that Yahshua had only to speak and her daughter would be freed. The choice of words by Yahshua carries a deeper message in the use of dog, which indicates unclean, paganism, idolatry and yet through her faith she said even the dogs eat the food that fall from the Master table.
Minister Busby seems to know the scriptures. Knowlege puffs up. Stephen just read the scriptures with Christ in his heart he knew that the Holy Spirit would teach. Scripture does speak, it is also living and active sharper than any double edged sword. You see it cut through the flesh and the spirit.
It may be noteworthy to notice commandments, statutes,and laws are used as if they are not all three the exact same even later in the scriptures it speaks of ten commandments, it gives the number.
You don't need to follow the Torah. The bible says that the Law was a schoolmaster that brought man unto faith in Jesus Christ but once faith came The schoolmaster was no longer needed. Don't let these hebrew cats fool you. These are the same people the bible says are spies who want to take away our liberty in Christ. Christ fulfilled the Law and if you follow any part of the Law you are cursed to follow ALL of the Law. When the Pharisees that believed tried to get gentiles to follow the Law the apostles called the Law a yoke of bondage that even their fathers couldn't bear.
Amen Brother Lance.

The Mosiac Law is/was untenable for all of mankind, except the Christ.

The Law gives us knowledge of what sin is, and yet simultaneously the Law gives sin it's power (1cor 15:56). But Praise God, We are now under grace and the law of the Spirit, faith and righteousness (Rom 6) .

The problem lies when we try and mix law and grace, it is a lose lose situation, because we are not fully under grace and therefore faith, and therefore still partially under law, and as you rightly pointed out if we follow any part of the Law, then we came under the curse of the Law (Gal 3:10) and have to follow the whole of the Law and, thus we will then be judged by the Whole of the Law. (Rom 2:12)

My favourite scripture regarding the Law must be from Galatians 3

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Torah is apart of the new covenant(Jeremiah 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8:8-12). Galatians 3 is not about keeping the Torah out of obedience. Its about keeping Torah for salvation. That's what Paul. a Pharisee, was refuting.

Torah is part of the old covenant.

As The LORD says 'My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them' Jer 31:32

and Hebrews 8:7 says For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no need to search for a second

8:13 He made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Chapter 9 continues
"1)Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary........10)They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order. " This refers to Torah and obviously the Temple.

Verse 15. For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

As you can see for Hebrews the first covenant is done away with, obedience is now found in the law of faith as of the original promise of Abraham.

Again in Col 2:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Notice that verse 13 says that the old covenant is "ready to vanish away." It never said it already vanished away. There was nothing wrong with the covenant itself, but rather the people. Verse 8 said,"finding fault with THEM." It never said finding fault with the covenant. So, whats really vanishing away is the covenant they broke, and HaShem will restore a new covenant WITH TORAH, as you saw in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

I am very familiar with Ephesians 2, and its often misinterpreted because of the lack of understanding of Hebrew culture and thought, and historical background. To get a better understanding of the scripture, let us post the scripture. Ephesians 2:14-17,"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."

The question a good bible student must ask him/her self is,"What is the hostility wall that is put up?" Caral, in ancient times, there was much hostility between Hebrew and Greek, namely, Hebrew believers, and Gentiles coming to the faith. Many commandments were created just for Hebrews in staying away from Gentile peoples. There is no teaching in the Torah that separates a Hebrew from a Gentile, especially if that Gentile is coming to faith. Yashah did not come and abolish the Torah, for He stated in Matt 5:17-19 that He came not to abolish the Torah, but to DO AND PERFORM the law(fulfill).

As far as the appointed days, we are to do what we can apply in case of the appointed days. There are some things on those days where the temple is needed, but since there is no temple, we cannot do it. This does not disqualify us from doing what we can apply. HaShem loves obedient hearts, and His strength is with them.

Paul himself was a Pharisee(Acts 23:6). It would be stupid for him to be keeping Torah, and yet telling others not to keep it. That would be hypocrisy. Paul was accused of teaching people not to keep Torah, and himself not keeping Torah in Acts 21. Paul proved them all wrong. The new covenant has not been established yet. The new covenant INCLUDES THE TORAH! Let us see the new covenant decrees that is in Jeremiah 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8:8-12:

1) Torah will be on our hearts
2) All shall know God. No need to teach fellow man
3) Sin will be forgiven, and never to be remembered

Guess which is the first decree? TORAH. It is true that Yashah is preparing a new covenant for us, but this covenant includes Torah.


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