Why do I being a gentile need to follow the Mossaic Law?
In reading the different dicussions on the site I love it because I am always looking to talk the Word over with fellow believers, and were there are disagreements I love to hear the different view points wether oe not i agree with them. And during the course of reading I have noticed that there are some Messianic Jews that add to the disussions on here ( and some are right on it), but I am wondering why would people who were gentiles by birth need to follow something that was never meant for them i.e. the Law.
Paul wrote many of his letters to refute the very fact of judiazers telling gentile believers that they had to follow the Law as well as believe in Jesus. Or even the fact that Peter and Paul had a disagreement over this very subject:
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is my belief that the Law was given by God to the Jews. But Christ came for All, and fulfilled the Law so why do I have to go back to following something that has already been fullfilled? Very interested in hearing your thoughts!!
Paul wrote many of his letters to refute the very fact of judiazers telling gentile believers that they had to follow the Law as well as believe in Jesus. Or even the fact that Peter and Paul had a disagreement over this very subject:
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is my belief that the Law was given by God to the Jews. But Christ came for All, and fulfilled the Law so why do I have to go back to following something that has already been fullfilled? Very interested in hearing your thoughts!!
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Anna on
-
Pastor Eric
1) Please tell me how you interpret "my commandments" in the specific texts you were referring to as I have no clue unless you give the scripture.
2) Glad you asked that question about when was tithing first mentioned in the scriptures.
If you wish to validate your receiving a Tithe, you must first go to the scriptures and see to whom God granted the Tithe, and what was tithed upon, to see if YOU even have a right to ask for a tithe.
If you are not Melchezidik or a descendant of Aaron, and don't minister in the Temple, then you have no legal right to the tithe.
That is why neither Jesus, nor any of the 12 apostles or Paul asked for tithes.
If you wish to claim the law to accept tithes because it proceeded Mt Sinai, the based upon that reasoning, you must also accept the Sabbath and clean and unclean meats, which were also was given before Sinai.
And tithes were never money but were the agricultural produce of the land and the domestic animals, which was the 'MEAT' or food to be in the Temple Storehouse, and shared with the widow, stranger and the orphan. Any use of the tithe other than that is misapplying the scriptures.
-
-
I did a search on the term "my commandments" and here is the results, the one speaking is God Himself:
***Gen.26:5***
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, >my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Exod.16
[28] And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exod.20
[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments
.
Lev.22
[31] Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the LORD.
Lev.26
[3] If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
[15] And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
Num.15
[40] That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
Deut.5
[10] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
[29] O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deut.11
[13] And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***Note, in Gen 26:5 Abraham, a non-Jew kept God's commandments, statutes and laws, BEFORE Sinai.
Ex. 16:28, the Sabbath was already considered to be part of God's law can commandments, before SINAI.
-
Permalink Reply by Rev. Eric Culberson Jr. on
-
Your right Abraham did keep God's commandments (His word), statues, and law (orders). Abraham did exactly what God told him to do, starting off with get out of thine country and away from thy kindred and out of thy fathers house. Abraham did exactly that. So rule of first mention lets us know what commandments meant when first presented in the bible, so how does it now always mean commanments as in the Mosaic law? If you want to go and say that it means ten commandments then okay I can live with that, but as far as every time we see commandments in the bible you want me to believe it means the Mossaic law then that were i have a difference of opinion. The Sabbath goes all the way back to creation, dont really understand what you were getting at with the Ex. 16:28. And quite honestly I've especially read through the several times one question when did Jesus ever ask for money, or anything like that? He taught about giving, but did he ever ask the people for anything?
-
Permalink Reply by James Pierce on
-
Culberson,
If you look back in the law, you will see what Anna is saying concerning the tithe. For many years, the Church has been saying that the tithe is money, and you sow your seed here and there, but that is not scripture. Anna is correct when she said that the tithe deals exclusively with agricultural produce, and nothing more, Culberson.
-
-
Pastor Eric:
You stated:
"And quite honestly I've especially read through the several times one question when did Jesus ever ask for money, or anything like that? He taught about giving, but did he ever ask the people for anything?"
~~~
Yes, Jesus sent his disciples out "empty handed" teaching them to have faith that their needs would be provided:
Mark.6
[8] And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
Luke.10
[4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
Luke.22
[35] And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
So if HE is behind a Preacher's ministrys, they too wil be provided for, don't you think?
Note He did not send his disciples out with the reminder to ask people for a tithe....
Do you ask your church members to tithe to you and your church? (Whose example are you following by asking for a tithe?)
If you teach your people to tithe, based on which scriptures do you do so, if that ****law of Moses****, was filfilled by Jesus?
-
-
Anna,
You have blessed me with what you spoke, and you have spoken the truth of Yahweh to Culberson. Shalom Aleichem in EVERY area of your life!
Your Brother,
Yaakov Ben Yahweh
-
Permalink Reply by Daniel Baumet on
-
In every society you have two sets of law... Criminal, and Civil! True?
For you people look closely at the Criminal Code in your country ( it is all the big 10! ) so cut the nonsense that you as Goyem do not keep the law...
Go ahead commit murder.. what will happen?
Steal ?? What will happen ?
Commit Adultery .. what will happen ?
The truth is not about any of those now though is it? It is your bondage to a "Catholic " idea mandated in Roman law that you will worship on Sunday and nothing else no matter what facts you have will stop you.
Messianic have heard your argument over and over , but hey I stayed awake and learned what that evil man did to our Emissaries that refused to kiss his ring! We are too "legalistic " right ? And from our friends and "brothers" on the Jewish side guess what we are not legalistic enough why ?? BEcause we will not stop teaching the "silliness" of Yeshua our Messiach ( Messiah) Ironic no?
God gave the written Torah to Moses .. but the Oral was taught among all nations bub!
InHistory we know that murder was not accepted. So really what is this about ? What is your beef?
You want to live by grace lets see how mush grace you get from the judge when you are caught doing 185 in a 50 ...
Better yet run over a person while doing that ( we call that here in Canada Vehicular homicide) You know in some States you will earn the Death Chamber on that now .. where is your grace?
The law is our teacher .. if you dont want to learn .. then go ahead ...
The law is our measuring stick .. I guess you for ever will be a spiritual midget.
How as children did we learn right from wrong ? Because mama and pa told us so, because a set of rules ( we call Torah you call Law) set the guide lines that maybe just maybe we would grow up and act like a couple of adults and not a couple of spoiled brats!
Reverend huh ? Even the New tells us there is only one to be revered!
-
-
Daniel I must admitt I had a hard time understanding the flow of your post and an even tougher time with you trying to throw your little pod shots in. If you want to have a conversation fine, if you want to come and try to throw insults then go some where else casue this aint the place.
-
-
Pastor Eric:
In order to solve the differences we have it is essential that we go to the associated Hebrew or Greek
texts which are available to us all online.
As you requested to apply the "law of first mention" here are the following first 4 texts where the word "commandments" is used:
Gen.26
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Exod.15
[26] And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
Exod.16
[28] And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exod.20
[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exd 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=26&v=5&...
I present to you from the Hebrew Text of Gen. 26:5, which provides the associated Hebrew word for each English word.
As you can see the word "commandments" is # H8451, not ever defined as "word" as I have seen many pastors try to alledge, but defined as:
mitsvah
1) commandment
a) commandment (of man)
b) the commandment (of God)
c) commandment (of code of wisdom)
Here is the lexical breakdown of each word in this text of Gen. 26:5-
Because
that Abraham
obeyed h8085 shama`
my voice, h6963 qowl
and kept h8104 shamar
my charge, h4931 mishmereth
my commandments, h4687 mitsvah
my statutes, h2708 chuqqah
and my laws. h8451 towrah
~~~~
Abraham, who was a friend of God, was obviously informed by God, what His Ways, were, and how to please Him, what was expected of Him, in a covenantal relationship, keeping God's commandments, statutes and laws! Which were later formally given to Israel through Moses.
God is the same, yesterday, today and forever for those who are to be part of His EVERLASTING COVENANT!
Now since you wanted to appeal to the law of first mention let's take our Bibles and look up the Hebrew word for "statutes" which is
H2708 "chuggah" defined as:
1) statute, ordinance, limit, enactment, something prescribed
a) statute
Where are these statutes, you might ask? This is VERY, VERY significant, since you will find that HIS appointed convocation, His festivals, are called "statutes." Contrast that to the days the church has invented, Christmas, Easter, NEVER found ordered, ordained of God, these are based on the commandments of MEN.
Here are the "statutes" which is one of the titles of His commanded assemblies:
Feast of Firstfruits - about which time our Messiah rose and offered Himself to the Father
Lev 23:14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, [that] it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work [therein: it shall be] a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
~~
Feast of Firstfruits - about which time our Messiah rose and offered Himself to the Father
Lev 23:14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings
~~
Feast if Pentecost - Wherein the Holy Spirit was given in the NT in Acts 1 & 2
Lev 23:21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, [that] it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work [therein: it shall be] a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
~~
Day of Atonement - which foreshadows the defeat of Satan expounded upon in Rev. 20:2
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
~~
Feast of Tabernacles - Prophecied by Zech 14:
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
[Zech.14
[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of ***all the nations*** which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.[19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles}
These "nations" are GENTILES, who God has commanded that they come to celebrate His statute, the Feast of Tabernacles!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Law = Torah, # 8451
1) law, direction, instruction
a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1) body of prophetic teaching
2) instruction in Messianic age
3) body of priestly direction or instruction
4) body of legal directives
b) law
1) law of the burnt offering
2) of special law, codes of law
c) custom, manner
d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law
Following your standard for the "law of first mention" here are the first few texts where the term
"law " torah, #8451 is used:
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Exd 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exd 18:16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make [them] know the statutes of God, and his laws.
Exd 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
Lev 26:46 These [are] the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
~~~~~~~~~
I believe I have shown you directly from the Biblical texts the first mention of God's commandments, laws and statutes.
I don't know why you mentioned that you were a Gentile, then contradicting yourself by saying that in Messiah there are no longer those Jew/Gentile distinctions? (If there are no longer any distinctions then men and women can marry the same sex! Paul simply means here, that there is no advantage to any class when it comes to being saved.)
Jesus Himself said, "Salvation is of the Jews"!
John.4
[22] for salvation is of the Jews.
We are to enter a Jewish/Israeli covenant, with Jewish/Israeli people under a Jewish Messiah, in a Kingdom headquartered in a Jewish state of Israel, with the king ruling from Jerusalem, with the constitution of the kingdom based upon the "laws/commandments/statutes" of God which are to be written in our hearts.
The gentiles are "adopted" as sons, through Messiah Yahshua:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Now in the natural, isn't an adopted child (as are those who were Gentiles) expected to keep the law, rules, lifestyle of the Father who adopted that child? Wouldn't you expect the same of a child you were to adopt?
Please read and study these scriptures, and explain to me how you are to become part of God's holy people, contrary to this and other overwhelming evidence that these Laws of God, are those upon which the New Covenant is based which His natural and adopted children are expected to obey.
In the Great Commission" Jesus said that His disciples were to teach the nations WHATSOEVER HE HAD COMMANDED THEM....
Please share with me where in Jesus statement here or anywhere, that Gentiles have a different set of laws to obey than one from the tribes of Judah or Israel.
Here is what Jeremiah the prophet said the Gentiles, as yourself would one day admit:
Jer.16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Zech.8:23 also prophecies:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a ***Jew***, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
If the EVERLASTING COVENANT is not to be kept by all it's inhabitants, why is the whole earth defiled by the all, including the Gentiles who break it?
Isa.24
[5] The earth also is defiled under the *inhabitants* (dwellers) thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
-
Permalink Reply by Rabbis Aviyah Byers on
-
Anna!
Todah YAH!
Thank you so much for this response. We must at all costs cast down the nullifying of the Torah. Man has deemed it a strange thing as stated in Hosea 8:12 “I have written for him numerous matters of My Torah – they were regarded as strange." What our Church brothers don't understand is that the Torah or Laws of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are our wisdom, and no where in the Scripture does he ever refer to the Torah or His Laws as unto the Jews only...thank Father for that! For in the Torah is peace, love, rest, provision and every manner of Blessing that we can think of and more. If we can get them to stop adhearing to that 'old traditional man's view' then we can prayerfully repair the breach.
People are suffering because they are caught up in generational curses that have been passed down through the sin of not keeping the Torah, because whether anyone beleives or not we stood at the foot of Mt. Sinai and accepted the Wedding Covenant (Deut 29:15 "but with him who stands here with us today before יהוה our Elohim, as well as with him who is not here with us today.") that Father gave to us and all those who may have been left out were brought in through the Blood of Messiah Yahshuah. I think that it's very interesting that people say that they can not keep all the Laws which are less then 300 Laws that govern Man's releationship with Yah and then man's relationship with man, but in the US constituition there are over 2500, but if you break one, you can kick and scream all you want to say, "I am not held to the laws of the US," if you break the law you will be held accountable. This is very true concerning the Torah, we have broken the Torah for generations therefore the curses have prevailed throughout our families.
Wake up people of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, come back to your first love!!!
-
-
Leigh you killing me with the switching up of the pics! (LOL!!!!!)
-
-
Leigh,
Salvation via the law isn't faith. Salvation via Yahshua is faith. We may have faith, but in the words of Sha'ul, in Romans 3:31,"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law". Brother, you are misunderstanding the words pf Sha'ul.
When Sha'ul said,"under the law", He is not referring to the actual obedience to the law, rather, what the law brings for not obeying it---- death. Do you truly understand this, Leigh? How can loving your fellow man as yourself bring forth death if it is being obeyed? How can keeping the Sabbath bring forth death if it is obeyed? Death only comes when these laws are NOT obeyed. Do you clearly understand this?
Before you go to interpret Sha'uls words, please get true understanding of it. The teachings of the NT are actually in the OT, and you must study to see all this. We are NOT redeemed from obeying the law, for how stupid does it sound to be redeemed from the law that says,"honor your mother and your father'? If we are redeemed from that, does that mean we are now free to disobey our parents? Use the brain Yahweh gave you leigh.
© 2024 Created by Raliegh Jones Jr..
Powered by
