Is the Office of Apostle still used today?

[Bishop Richard Groover]

I would like to hear some discussion on whether or not the Office of the Apostle exist today? Let us not confuse someone's ability to exegete a text or "Preach" with this Office. The bible is clear on many trends. Of course if your an Apostle you will say yes or if your Pastor is an Apostle but I want us to dig into scripture and see what the Word says. Here is a thought....None of the Apostle's pastored churches. If this is a touchy subject I do apologize. No one will be judged one way or another.

[Bishop Richard Groover]

I have Friends that are Apostles and I believe God has a massive annointing on their life but i'm discussing the actual office from a neutral place.

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

Hmmmm....maybe my post will generate some more dialogue...LOL

We must look at the scripture for patterns and principles (not just PRACTICES) in order to do proper examination of any issue. We fight over texts and practices in the Bible, but rarely do we discern its patterns and principles. The issue you raise was mostly created by the Roman Catholic church who convinced the world that there were no more apostles, and that all authority rested in the office of the bishop (the so-called successors to the apostles). THEN, they convinced the world that the Roman Catholic church was the only church in the world with true apostolic succession from the original 12 via its bishopric. Of course, this would mean that ALL authority in the world and church rested in Europe, its bishops, and ultimately in their Pope. You don't need the Holy Ghost to discern a motive here; and for centuries it worked.

Few dogmatic Christians know that 3/4 of all they believe about the Bible and its intepretation came from the Church of Rome, and that more than half of the remaining 1/4 came from Constatine's RE-FORM of Catholicism. Europe propogated the extinction of the apostolic office, not G_d. Additionally, the idea of a NEW Testament eminated from the same motive. There is nothing new under the sun. Thus, the idea of apostle is NOT a new testament concept...it is simply a GRECO-ROMAN idea of an old office.

The apostolic pattern or model and prophetic processes begin with Adam/Eve, and does not end with Yeshua--we are now the light of the world! I will illustrate momentarily. Your presumption that no apostles pastored is in keeping with Greco-Roman thought that the office began after Yeshua and culminated in Paul and the 12. The writer of Hebrews proclaimed Yeshua was an APOSTLE. The whole book of Hebrews is a comparison of the regimes of Mosheh (Moses) and Yeshua (Jesus). Thus, the book is bogus if Mosheh and Yeshua are not comparible.

Yeshua was an apostle, yet we say that he was the great SHEPHERD of the sheep, the Bishop of our souls and High Priest. Mosheh's ministry of Prophet, Priest, and King fits the same model. Thus he is an apostle. The judges in Old Testament times also served in the role of the apostle, many of them, even women, fitting the prophet, priest, king (or queen) model. This IS the model of the true apostle--a tri-fold ministry as prophet, priest, and governor. Therefore, the apostle is not something that generated with the 12, or 120 who were with Yeshua. If the office was done away with by those men and women, Paul would fit NONE of what we call requirements to be an apostle.

Thus, this office is not new, nor was it ever done away with by G_d. Let me illustrate here by scripture....Yeshua prophetically proclaimed in Luke: 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, will be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. This shows that it was the Spirit of Wisdom SPOKE (one of the 7 spirits of G-d) and He SENT the people prophets and apostles. The way we receive them will determine the quantity and quality of our days on earth, as well as our children and grand-children. The folly and arrogance of humanity revoked the prophetic and apostolic office and we are still paying for it. The church is a mess because for years, based on the fallacy of apostolic and papal extinction, it has been run by pastors alone who have neither the rank, authority or anointing to set apostolic order, tap into apostolic/kingdom revelation, and engage, establish, and endure prophetic processes. That was never their job or their calling.

Paul as a church planter pastored some of the churches he founded until he matured bishops and pastors to be oversee those works. The apostle John was the chief apostle (NOT PETER OR PAUL), and pastored the Mother Church in Jerususalem. It is believed that he was not an intinerant preacher like Paul. There is no evidence, old or new, that this office is non-pastoral. The fact that Paul as apostle and bishop had oversight of churches and pastors is evidenced in the Epistles. If he had no apostolic, pastoral jurisdiction over the local churches, we would have no letters bringing correction to these churches. The model of the apostle is prophet, priest, governor (king/queen). The bad thing is there are many who are called apostles and prophets and are not. SOME body prophesied and laid hands on these people out of their ignorance of divine and biblical patterns and principles as opposed to religous practices. I could go on...but will close out here. Suffice it to say, apostles are pastoral, prophetic governors just as Mosheh and Yeshua were. Contrary to popular belief, all apostles do not plant churches, neither are all those who plant churches Apostles. ANY body can start churches or anything else they want. In the 70s the popularity of the prophet resurged--EVERY body was now the prophet. In the 80s the authrity of the pastor was revived, and EVERY body wanted to be the pastor. In the 90s, bishops started BOOMING, and everybody wanted to be bishops; 90s- 2000s the resurgance of the apostles--NOW everybody is the Apostle....it's almost sickening. At any rate, the true model of antiquity, and of NOW is that prophet, priest, king pattern for apostles. Look for this trifold manifestation in the true apostles. Here is the conclusion of the matter in Ecclessiastes:

Eccl 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

[Apostle Ricci J. Hausley Sr.]

Dear Beloved in Christ,

Thanks for raising this question for over half of the church does not believe there are modern day Apostles, and even amongst those who embrace the office there is a major need for education and understanding. I have served in the church for over 36 years, and 20 of those years I served the Body of Christ as a Seer/Prophet, and for the last 12 years as an Apostle. I lead the Apostolic Prophetic movement in the Philadelphia/Delaware Valley area, and we are know nationally and in various countries for our work. We have been leading this for 17 years, and our Prophetic College is in the mist of its 17th school year. So with this background I provide my perspective.

I praise God for the mighty woman of God Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D. and her perspective on the history of how we have arrived to where we are in the church. I am also glad she took us to the Old testament for the Old Testament is Christ concealed (in types, shadows, patterns and principals), and the New Testament is Christ revealed. The bible with its 66 books is the complete revelation of God's master plan for all of mankind.

Too often in the church world we strain at a knat and swallow a camel. Seemingly ministers love to focus on the micro aspects of the word of God, and we divide and split hairs over views and interpretations of various doctinal understandings. The bible is more than just doctrine, and to really understand it we MUST look at the "whole" of scripture to understand what the word of God is teaching by pattern and principal.

Because of my professional training on the secular side of life, I see things all the time in terms of patterns. I am a 30 veteran in the building trades, I have a degree in architecture, I teach business, I mentor business people, and I have been in business since 1978. So I always see things by pattern, and that has been my approach to the Word of God. I have graduated with a degree in theology, and have been trained in hermeneutics. What is needed is an ability to view the word of God from a "macro" perspective rather than the traditional hair splitting "micro" method we see employed by too many ministers.

If Apostles and Prophets were not for today, then Pastors, Evangelist and Teachers are on that same list found in Ephesians - 4:11 and written by Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Ephesian eldership. Also there are five different types of Apostles in scripture and they are:

1. Patriarchal Apostles who are found in the Old Testament (such as King David's Son King Solomon), then there is the 2. Chief Apostle of our Profession and Faith , the Lord Jesus Christ, then there are
3. The 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (Jesus own hand picked Apostles).
4. Then there were the Apostles who were instrumental in laying the original foundation of the church, and many were the authors of the New Testament. In Revelations it mentions that the 12 Apostles of the Lamb have their names in the foundation of the New Jerusalem. People like Apostle Barnabus nephew Apostle John Mark, Apostle Dr. Luke, Apostle Paul, and others fall into this categlory.
5. Then there are post- ascension Apostles of Ephesians - 4:11 which are numerous and some are found in the book of Acts and the epistles. And todays' modern day apostles fall in this realm.

I preached on TBN some years ago from the message, "Give Me Five"... This was an old adage used in the 70's and african Americans would say "Give Me Some Skin man" and the other would take the entire palm of their hand and slap each other "ALL FIVE" fingers and the entire hand. As so adequately explained by Bishop Hyman the Roman Catholic Church who trace their succession to Apostle Peter established an order which essentially explained away the Apostleship, and consolidated political control of the church. Bishops replaced the Apostles work, and the Protestant movement from Martin Luther followed in the vein.

Where a lot of the confusion comes in is because we All understand that the canon of Scripture is complete, and too many have thought that to mean, that since we no longer depend upon Apostles to reveal more writings to add to the canon of scripture, then this means that the mission of the apostles ministry is complete and no longer needed. But this is a misnoma, for the bible clearly shows that not all apostles wrote scripture, and there were plenty of Apostle (Post-ascenion type), who were very active in the New Testament.

Therefore we understand that today's Apostles are Post-ascension type Apostles and we stand as one of five of the five-faceted, fivefold ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. So it is all or nothing when it comes to Christ ministry the fivefold ministry.

The word apostle is not even a religious term, for it is Greek in origin, and if you travel to Greece or New York City you will find them all over the place riding bicycles and carrying messages all over the place. God bless,and keep pulling this thread, and thanks for raising the subject, God Bless.

Sincerely,

Apostle Ricci J. Hausley Sr.

[Bishop Richard Groover]

Bishop Hyman and Apostle Hausley I thank you. The both of you have taught me something, which if you knew me I am like a kid in the candy store. I love the Word and will never retire being a student of the Word and I get all giddy when I even think I'm about to learn. What you spoke of the average laymen do not receive in traditional church. I grew up in a church who does not believe in Apostles or Prophets. But thank God for growth. There are several reasons why I posted this discussion. For some good dialogue which with Love is healthy. You will not believe how many pastors think this is a ranking structure. Which to a degree it is but it's automatic. It's based on the call. I've been a Pastor, next is bishop, ok been a bishop awhile, time for another promotion I'll be an Apostle. Not every pastor will be a Bishop or Apostle no matter how long you been in ministry. And as the Bishop put it, each decade represented a Fad in the pulpit. I have spoke with many Apostles who could not verbalize what the office was as you two just did. Neither could they justify their apostleship, if that makes sense. If you going to assume an office at least know what you are suppose to be doing and be walking in it.
Lastly, it is evident that you didn't just go to church and listen for the Lord. You went out and sought information whether in seminary or some sort of bible school. We all agree school does not replace the anointing and an authentic call on your life but the information learned is priceless. I'm almost done and could slap myself for not going sooner. (Listening to folk, you don't need it long as you anointed). Anyways I enjoyed the reading. At the end of the day let your works speak for you.

[Bishop S. JaNine Hyman, Ph.D.]

Pastor, I am the same way about learning. I'll never stop because the more I learn, the dummer I find out I really was...LOL. This is good dialogue so far...I was stimulated by Apostle Hausely's response. I am also glad to hear that you are in school....get ready, other preachers may persecute you for it. Think not, check outh the thread about seminary trained preachers---LOL.

Nothing replaces education, just as nothing replaces the anointing. It is usually the insecure or immature who take an either-or approach to so-called spiritual issues, rather than a "both-and" approach. After all this is simple math, who is more prone to be effective? The educated or the anointed --or the educated AND anointed....selah

Also, I agree, the apostleship is nothing one should aspire to--it is not an elevation, or promtion through the ranks. Howbeit, just as Apostle Hause, I too served for 16 years as evangelist, walked in the prophetic for nearly 20 years, and in the pastorate for 9 years before being enthroned as apostle FIRST, and THEN given a bishopric. This is the natural process for most first-generation apostles. This is because we must fully be trained, matured, and proven in each of the 5-fold desginations since the fullness of the 5-fold ministry lies in the bowels of the apostle. But not every pastor is called to this office, nor to any of the others.

As for the apostolic office...PLEASE pray for us as many in the body and many "apostles" themselves seem to be a bit confused as to our role and rank. And yes, apostles do have rank, as does everything in all the kiingdoms in the universe. However, we have become accustomed to rank from a western perspective....the mighty on top and the week on the bottom. If we return to the Mother--not meaning the mother church of Rome, but I speak in respect to Africa--we would understand that the apostle is FIRST in rank (in order of importance, primary, foundational, etc). Traditional west african perspective of rank means that we are both foundational and furthest out FRONT--not on TOP! This perspective is circular, not linear! Whatever the FIRST thing is the WHOLE thing is, and if the foundation be destroyed, what will the righteous do??? LORD please help us! Pray Pastor --PRAY.

[Preacher]

Anyone who is born again is sent to preach the gospel...

Original Word: ἀπόστολος
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: apostle

Word Origin
from apostelló
Definition
a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle...messenger means ANGLE...
GB

[Bishop Richard Groover]

Bishop, I love the wisdom. Hopefully many though not responding are thinking about this office. We as pastors take on these titles out of pride to elevate ourselves and not being able to operate in the office adequately because a lack of a call and anointing for it. And also lack of training and preparation. I am not bashing, nor hating. I tell any minister at Kingdom Life if you are called to Pastor and God releases you I will know. And I will not allow you to sit here with that anointing on you. I will not curse my own ministry by holding someone back from their ministry. Even if you choose not to allow me to be your covering I want you gone. Doing what God has called you to do. There is principle behind the oil that flowed down Aaron's beard. Like reaping what you sow, good bad or ugly you will reap what you sow.

When we elevate ourselves that spirit to go and walk and areas that we aren't called, trained, nor equipped flows to our members. If I don't understand the office I am elevating myself to. Then I will more than likely find in my pulpit, seated people who have titles they are not called,or equipped to operate in. Ask an Evangelist what is the proper operation of that office well gift rather. My home church used Evangelist as a femine title for Elder. Please don't laugh too hard reading that. All the female preachers were Evangelist. But they got it right today but that is how it was. When I make my calling and election sure, this not only applies to me but those in the pulpit, the deacon board, the mother board, this board and that board. This is how we end up with people in the pulpit who should be on the cleaning committee. The bottom line is I want us as pastors not to make the church a place that feeds egos but saves souls and build the Kingdom. On the same note, if you are walking in your calling be it a gift or an office. As your gift make room for you, you deserve to be elevated to the Office you are walking in. No it may not be on the same scale as another church or preacher but you walking in it. Don't think you don't qualify to walk in the Office of a Bishop because your church is not as big as someone else.
The only people impressed with my title is church folk. That lady wanting to be delivered from crack, or the young man who needs deliverance from homosexuality could care-less what my title is. All they want to know is can I get a prayer through. Can I help them get delivered. Yes there must be order, there must be structure. The church can't function properly without the working of the 5 fold ministries. From the young age of 13 starting a new church from the ground with my father developed my passion for church building. I have been offered to assume the pastorate at churches but I had to turn them down. From the ground to me is the only way. I do not care how big or strong my church may become, how famous or known my name may become, or who may soup my head up. I recognize my call and i'm sticking to it. I won't elevate myself thinking higher of myself then I should. Neither am I going to give up. I have a passion for Winning souls, Church building, organization, leadership development. ministerial development. And God showed me that I don't have to know everything or be everything. That is why i'm not the only member in the body. When the left hand picks up something too heavy it employs the help of the right hand. Ok i'm getting off my soap box. If you are reading this thread please read in detail what Bishop Hyman and Apostle Hauser posted real good. I believe they were on point. When we are all in proper place the body will flow much mo' better. Whether we agree or disagree with each other. We can agree to disagree and keep it moving, working together for the work of the Kingdom. Ok got to get ready for Bible Study. God Bless!

[Apostle Ricci J. Hausley Sr.]

Dear Pastor Richard Groover,

God bless you mighty man of God, and I have been out of the loop with regards to my email on this specific discussion. In response to the kind comments concerning whether or not the Office of the Apostle exist today. I will continue in that train of thought to bring further clarity to the subject.

The Apostles office is the counter-weight to the Prophetic grace of God, for both are foundational in nature. When Jesus Christ desired to share with us the "Kingdom of God" he did so Himself as the Apostle of our profession and faith. Then he sent forth His disciples as His first Apostles.

After his passion and resurrection 50 days later on the day of the Pentecost, he gave birth to the church through Apostolic grace, and that is why the book of acts is called the "Acts of the Apostles"... The Apostles are shown fulfilling the great commission given to them by our Lord while under terrible persecution. They did mission work, and Evangelistic work, for the book of Acts and the epistles record their activities, not Evangelist, Pastors or Teachers.

So the concept of the nature and foundation of the church and its origin is not correct, and therein lies the problem and confusion. The culprit of this is Bishops have historically tried to replace and dismiss the very office which gave birth to the little known regionally administrative, diocese based, office of the Bishop. Some schools of thought state that the Bishop and apostle are one in the same, just different aspects of the same person.

If I were to refinish an antique piece of furniture, I would have to strip it down to its original state, then begin the process of refinishing the piece to its original glory. What the church has done is to begin with a threefold mindset, trying to interpret the fivefold ministry. The entire Word of God was written and inspired by the Holy Spirit through Prophetic and Apostolic grace of God.

So to really understand its message, and to hear it not just read it, requires we tap into the Spirit of God running behind the words. This grace is not just taught, but caught, not learned, but discerned to catch the deposit by "impartation"... The spirit behind the words came through first Prophetic grace and then Apostolic grace. This is the key to proper interpretation. We MUST lay these two areas of the grace of God as an overlay and a lens upon God's word to catch the essence of God's word through which they were written.

The Lord specifically chose these two areas of the grace of God for a reason. A foundation is not known for its great visibility, but it is known for what it supports! Therefore the Apostolic and the Prophetic is not on top as we see so many egotistical, ambition driven ministers striving and making the office political. Most of what we see has nothing to do with apostolic gifts and callings, but rather carnal human striving, and a personal kingdom building agenda. I do not mean to step on some toes, but after 37 years serving in the church I have earned the right to be observant.

Plus the Apostleship is parental in nature, and Apostle Paul put it correctly for he clearly stated, "It is not the job of the children to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children, to spend and to be spent. The Apostolic is a parental grace, and is driven by a heart that has completely turned away from ambition driven ministry, and according to Malachi - 4:5 - 6 has turned their hearts totally to the next generation in the same way any natural parent does with their natural children. No wonder Apostle Paul stated in I Corinthians - 4: 14 - 17, "You have not many fathers"...

the problem with many who are attempting to embrace an Apostolic calling they do not fit into this model of the ministry for they have never been parented themselves. You cannot take someone to a place where your yourself have never been. To many are spiritual orphans, and do not have a clue into the entire drive behind the office which is spiritual parenting. In I Corinthians - 4 when Apostle Paul could not get to the Corinthian church he clearly states concerning his son Timothy that he had no one likeminded like him who could model and demonstrate his ways which be in Christ to them, for he could not make a trip to see them at that time. An apostle is a "sent son" as well as a sent son, for someone has to do the sending. Jesus was our ultimate example for He is God's son, sent by the father... And we are called o walk in his footsteps.

There is so much more I can share, but let this aspect go forth and on another date I will share further. I am a spiritual father and have been a spiritual son for 31 years, therefore I am qualified top speak on the subject. God bless,

Apostle Ricci J. Hausley Sr.
Eagle's Nest Christian Fellowship