Forbidden Sexual Relations Pt VIII

[Anna]

Forbidden Sexual Relations

82) Not to indulge in familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, skipping, which may lead to incest (Lev. 18:6)
83) Not to commit incest with one's mother (Lev. 18:7)
84) Not to commit sodomy with one's father (Lev. 18:7)
85) Not to commit incest with one's father's wife (Lev. 18:8)
86) Not to commit incest with one's sister (Lev. 18:9)
87) Not to commit incest with one's father's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:11)
88) Not to commit incest with one's son's daughter (Lev. 18:10)
89) Not to commit incest with one's daughter's daughter (Lev. 18:10)
90) Not to commit incest with one's daughter (this is not explicitly in the Torah but is inferred from other explicit commands that would include it)
91) Not to commit incest with one's fathers sister (Lev. 18:12)
92) Not to commit incest with one's mother's sister (Lev. 18:13)
93) Not to commit incest with one's father's brothers wife (Lev. 18:14)
94) Not to commit sodomy with one's father's brother (Lev. 18:14)
95) Not to commit incest with one's son's wife (Lev. 18:15)
96) Not to commit incest with one's brother's wife (Lev. 18:16)
97) Not to commit incest with one's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:17)
98) Not to commit incest with the daughter of one's wife's son (Lev. 18:17)
99) Not to commit incest with the daughter of one's wife's daughter (Lev. 18:17)
100) Not to commit incest with one's wife's sister (Lev. 18:18)
101) Not to have intercourse with a woman, in her menstrual period (Lev. 18:19)
102) Not to have intercourse with another man's wife (Lev. 18:20)
103) Not to commit sodomy with a male (Lev. 18:22)
104) Not to have intercourse with a beast (Lev. 18:23)
105) That a woman shall not have intercourse with a beast (Lev. 18:23)
106) Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 22:24)

If these laws are nailed to the cross, then incest is no longer a sin!
Can any of you name two verses in the Apostolic writings which refer to any of these laws against incest?

[Rachel Israel]

I have a question about your question if you don't mind...
Leviticus 18:6 says None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

It goes on to say that the nakedness of a man is his wife, and vice versa.
Here is my question -
How does that mean not to kiss or embrace a relative because it can lead to incest? I understand what is written, but if there is something in the Hebrew words I am missing please teach me. I do not understand.
Thank You,
Rachel

[Anna]

Sis Rachel:

You asked a question regarding-

# 82: "Not to indulge in familiarities with relatives, such as kissing, embracing, winking, skipping, which may lead to incest",

which is based upon:

(Lev. 18:6) - "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD."
~~~~~~
As you can see, the text of Leviticus states what the sin is, sex with a relative/in-law", The comment about avoiding familiarities (embracing, kissing etc.) can be considered to be part of the "oral law" or "fence around the law", the keeping of which prevents one from transgressing the actual law or the "letter of the law".

Regarding modern day examples of incest, if one has ever watched the "Jerry Springer Show" you know that incest among inlaws is a common occurrance. Often the "guests" are family members who have gotten sexually involved with one another's spouses, whether it is sister's or brother's, mother's or father's etc. These relationships obviously started with a seemingly harmless kiss or embrace....

Since our culture allows familiarities with these individuals, inlaws, under the guise that they are "family" it is expected that the natural tabu regarding sexuality with blood relatives will prevail. Apparently often sexual transgression occurs, one of the most recent examples that became public was the Pastor in Atlanta who had a child with his brother's wife, who was known to the congregation as the Pastor's nephew.

Human nature as it is, can be deceitful, and I don't have a problem with these strict guidelines if there are those who wish to practice them:

The traditional Halachah for touching relatives is described as follows:

"So although the seemingly innocent act of touching a member of the opposite sex is something that is commonplace in our society, it is something that a person begins to view as anathema once they become sensitized to the real meaning of spirituality and holiness according to Torah.

According to the Rabbis, touch between a man and a woman is so personal and so charged with potential energy, that it is reserved only for one’s spouse, and even then only at certain appropriate times.

There are almost always polite, creative, and good-humored ways to avoid contact with members of the opposite sex, and even to turn the moment into one of education and even spiritual enlightenment.

Now, let’s take a look at what the Halachah states:

• A parent may kiss his or her children of the opposite sex even after they are married.

• A grandparent may kiss a grandchild of the opposite sex. According to most authorities, it is permitted even if the grandchild is married. (Some authorities advise men not to kiss their married granddaughters.)

• A woman is not allowed to kiss any male over the age of nine other than her husband, father, grandfather, son, or grandson.

• A girl who has reached puberty should avoid kissing or engaging in any endearing contact with brothers who also have reached puberty."

~~~~~~~
I believe a husband and wife should establish between themselves how they will deal with this issue.
Expecially how they will greet, hug or embrace the opposite sex, specifically in the congregational setting.

[Rachel Israel]

I am truly amazed when I become aquainted with Israelite camps outside of mine own. This subject disturbs me on so many levels that I really don't know where to begin. I came into the truth many years ago and it was a wonderful thing. I am thankful for the group The Father chose for me because that group uses history as a tool to document prophecy and the Bible as THE ONLY SOURCE FOR TRUTH. Many of the so-called Hebrew phrases and customs I hear about and read right here on this thread are not taught by my pastor.

We do not observe "secular" "Jewish" holidays (Like Purim) so I have very little knowledge about them. The traditional Halachah is a new concept for me, because all I know is the KJV Bible. As I write that out it seems to pale in comparison to the former body of laws, practices and guidelines (all 613 of them) being discussed on this thread.

I have been taught Thou Shalt NOT Commit Adultery. The law that compliments that is Thou Shalt Not Covet. Jesus further defined coveting when He said:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
This goes for women as well. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. What I am getting at is when we develop the Word of God in our minds, we become a reflection of that Word. We become Christlike as we put on Christ. I think to dwell on matters such as the ones outlined here concerning the actuality of who we may and may not touch gives plaace to Satan by dwelling on what will eventually become sin.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
I believe the very act of dwelling on what one cannot have will strengthen the desire to have it. Take this example: A girl who has reached puberty should avoid kissing or engaging in any endearing contact with brothers who also have reached puberty."
First of all, this puts the burden of guilt on the girl. Secondly, if this is truly God's Will, then my Brother Paul was wicked. He said Greet the Brethren with an Holy Kiss. Now he was referring to the brethren that were/are not related by blood (I believe) and the whole analogy of the Body of Christ and The Family of God is to be like an ACTUAL FAMILY. I am 49 years old and my brother and I hug each other, hold hands and and are very open with one another physically. I can honestly say before God that we have never had sexual relations of any kind, nor has it ever been an issue. I have no desire to have sex with any of my relatives or any of my close male friends.

I am not saying that discretion is not warranted when dealing with anyone. If you know someone is an alcoholic you do not give them wine. Same with sexual issues. If you know a sister has sexual issues you do not approach her in a way that would imply an interest sexually. It's called walking in love. Esteeming the other before yourself. But I believe as we put the Word of God on in our minds that we develop a spiritual intuition about how to deal with anyone.

Adam and Eve knew NOTHING about sexual issues until The Devil taught them they were naked. Now, as I read over #82, all I see is sin being revealed. I see more than What IS Written. Does this Halachah have more authority than the Law of God? If the answer is yes, then mt mind recalls the Catholic religion, and how they quite openly say the Bible is just a reference, and they can expand, remove and add to as they see fit.

The other thing that really intrigues me about this Halachah is who wrote it. I do not believe actual Israelite Prophets had anything to do with this. Many Israelites, when we learn who we are according to the Word of God are so quick to fully discount The Testimony of the Apostles (Matthew through Reveleation) and fully embrace the teachings of Esau. I truly do not understand this phenomenom. We exchange one lie for the other. We do EVERYTHING Edom does. We keep his holidays, we use his language, we deny the Christ. I do not know Hebrew. I am not sure that the language the Ashkenazi "Jews" call hebrew is actually hebrew. Jesus said call no man Father. Or Rabbi. He covered THE TWO FALSE RELIGIONS that He knew would be a snare to us:

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And check this out:
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

These verses, spoken by The Master tells us that the people that say they are Jews are liars and are of Satan!! Now, who's right here, The Lord or the Tradition?

I have to speak my heart, and the Word of God. As I see it. I know many if not all reading this will resent me, be angry with me and I may even be put out of this group.

Leviticus 18:6 says None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

Approach:kaw-rab'A primitive root; to approach (causatively bring near) for whatever purpose: - (cause to) approach, (cause to) bring (forth, near), (cause to) come (near, nigh), (cause to) draw near (nigh), go (near), be at hand, join, be near, offer, present, produce, make ready, stand, take.

With the intent to:UNCOVER
gaw-law'
A primitive root; to denude (especially in a disgraceful sense); by implication to exile (captives being usually stripped); figuratively to reveal: - + advertise, appear, bewray, bring, (carry, lead, go) captive (into captivity), depart, disclose, discover, exile, be gone, open, X plainly, publish, remove, reveal, X shamelessly, shew, X surely, tell, uncover.

Their Nakedness:
er-vaw'
From H6168; nudity, literally (especially the pudenda) or figuratively (disgrace, blemish): - nakedness, shame, unclean (-ness).

Please note the INTENT, because that is the issue. If I hold my brother's hand, and hug him because I am glad to see him, there is no INTENT to uncover his nakedness. The Bible is VERY clear on unlawful sexual acts. If I willfully have a sexual relationship with animals, women, married men, my father, brother, uncle, son, another woman....I will be killed. Period. God will put me in the fire. I believe telling someone that truth is much more effective than all the explainations of Leviticus 18:6. If I have a problem with any of those things, and I want to change, I put the Word in my mind, namely, that He will Kill me if I disobey. And if I repent, He will forgive me and accept me into His Kingdom.

Knowing therefore the TERROR of THE LORD, we persuade men.
And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[Anna]

Sis Rachel
You asked some very good questions which we will attempt to answer satisfactolrily.
In order to properly interpret any Biblical text there several essential things that must be considered which include:

1) Who is the speaker
2) To whom is the message addresed
3) What is the social/cultural background at the time the message was given?

We know the speaker was YHWH, who was addressing His "called out people" which consisted of "ex-slaves" who were not just Israelites but Gentiles which left Egypt with them. Their culture was very different than ours today. Brother sister/incestuous marriage was common among the Egyptians where they had lived for scores of years. The following is an excerpt which documents what has just been shared:

Egypt: Marriage in Ancient

It was not uncommon among common people to marry relatives. Marriage between cousins, uncles and nieces were fairly common in Egypt prior to the Greek period. Interestingly, after the Greek arrival, one study found that 24 percent of marriages among common people were brother/sister relationships.
Egypt: Marriage in Ancient Egypt
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/marriage.htm

Some of the Israelites and Gentiles at Sinai, may themselves either have been in, or had been born of, or knew of people who were involved in such incestuous marital arrangements. YHWH by these regulations was essentially forbidding these types of marriages and any activity that might lead to temptation to engage in activities permitted only in marriage.

Based on what happened at the foot of Mt. Sinai, in the term "they stood up to play" we see how prone to immorality these ex-slaves were. They were having an orgy when Moses heard the noise from the camp after he had recieved the 10 Words/Commandments and returned to the foot of the mountain.

Rachel, most of us in our culture, in this country find incest with family members abhorrent, but I'm sure you are aware that this is not always the case. You seem to have been brought up in a well balanced loving family. Unfortunately that is not always the case. The excerpt from article posted below entitled "Incest" is from "The National Center for Victims of Crime"
~~~~~~~
INCEST - Overview

Incest does not discriminate. It happens in families that are financially-privileged, as well as those of low socio-economic status. It happens to those of all racial and ethnic descent, and to those of all religious traditions. Victims of incest are boys and girls, infants and adolescents. Incest occurs between fathers and daughters, fathers and sons, mothers and daughters and mothers and sons. Perpetrators of incest can be aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, nephews, step-parents, step-children, grandparents and grandchildren. In addition, incest offenders can be persons without a direct blood or legal relationship to the victim such as a parent's lover or live-in nanny, housekeeper, etc. -- as this abuse takes place within the confines of the family and the home environment (Vanderbilt, 1992). The study of a nationally representative sample of state prisoners serving time for violent crime in 1991 revealed that 20 percent (20%) of their crimes were committed against children, and three out of four prisoners who victimized a child reported the crime took place in their own home or in the victim's home (Greenfeld, 1996).

Estimates of the number of incest victims in the United States vary. These discrepancies can be attributed to the fact that incest remains an extremely under-reported crime. All too often, pressure from family members -- in addition to threats or pressure from the abuser -- results in extreme reluctance to reveal abuse and to subsequently obtain help (Matsakis, 1991).

Incest has been cited as the most common form of child abuse. Studies conclude that 43 percent (43%) of the children who are abused are abused by family members, 33 percent (33%) are abused by someone they know, and the remaining 24 percent (24%) are sexually abused by strangers (Hayes, 1990). Other research indicates that over 10 million Americans have been victims of incest.

One of the nation's leading researchers on child sexual abuse, David Finkelhor, estimates that 1,000,000 Americans are victims of father-daughter incest, and 16,000 new cases occur annually (Finkelhor, 1983). However, Finkelhor's statistics may be significantly low because they are based primarily on accounts of white, middle-class women and may not adequately represent low-income and minority women (Matsakis, 1991) http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&Docume...

~~~~~~~~

YHWH inspired the prophet Jeremiah to write:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9

Without such guidelines against incest from YHWH, it is evident how much more of these incestuous relationship would occur.

Here is some data on incest in other countries:

In France, incest is not a crime, incest laws were abolished by Napoleon some 200 years ago for uncertain reasons. Incestuous relations between a parent and minor child are prohibited and punished by law in France, but not between adults.

Sweden is the only country in Europe where incest is not only legal but also allows marriage between siblings who share a parent.

The people who did preserve the Biblical text and their halakah/commentary on these laws, have done us a great service, in that they have a multiplicity of generation who have dealt with human nature and it's frailties. Even with laws against incest and the cultural taboos against it, we still see it occurring with far too frequently in families.

We are not bound to the halakah on this subject, but we can benefit from studying it and determining which if any of it we choose to follow. It must be credited that it does attempt to protect the child from physical and sexual contact by those who they trust who unfortunately in the past and today may unknown to you, be sexual predators.

Have you ever watched the TV program 'To Catch A Predator"? In case you haven't you may be surprised to find out that men from EVERY strata of society and Clergy have been caught on tape, trying to molest young girls.

Each of these men were someone's Pastor, Rabbi, Priest, Husband, Brother and Uncle....

Meet the men from 'To Catch a Predator'
Click through a photo and video gallery with information on the men who showed up on "To Catch a Predator." STORY
Click here: Dateline NBC - To Catch A Predator With Chris Hansen - Breaking News, Headlines & Top Stories
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10912603/


To be continued......

[Anna]

The following is an article that discusses comprehensively the problem of incest in the USA and in other nations around the world. It is shocking the number of children that have reported attempted or full blown molestations. The Halakah posted here is to place a protective boundary around girls of all ages to protect their chastity:
~~~

The Universality of Incest

Until someone is courageous enough to directly question the children themselves whether they have been molested - a simple procedure that has never been done in any published study to date - 60 and 45 percent should be considered as the most reliable national incidence rates we now have available for the U.S.
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html

[YahsNiviim]

It seems that all that YHWH is saying that we honor his Torah. See he gave 613 Mitzvah but he then summed it all up into ten then becuase we have such a bad memory he summed it up into two. The first being the most important. Love YHWH with all of your heart mind and soul. The second Love your neighbor as you love yourself. So in essence what he is saying is do not do anything that offends your neighbor. The problem is that the more we get away from the Law of YHWH the less we care about ourselves and the less we care about our neighbors.

We have become loveless and selfish and because of this we offend YHWH as well as others. The sooner we get back to Torah the easier our lives would be. The sooner we stop looking at the Torah as a list of don'ts and start looking at it as a list of do's because I love YHWH I do what he says. It really is that simple.

Because of the Ahava of YHWH and Because of the Ahava for YHWH it compels Me to love you when I do not even feel like loving you. It is because of YHWH and only YHWH. He is the essence of love and life. Do it for the Love of YHWH.

[Anna]

In response to the question regarding producing texts in the NT that uphold of the Torah prohibition against forbidden sexual relations, note the following:

Acts 15:20 -
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from *fornication*, and from things strangled, and from blood.

This text confirms an upholding of ALL these commandments in the Torah regarding forbidden sexual relationships.

and

1 Corinthians 5:1
It is reported commonly that there is *fornication* among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Paul here is referencing commandment # 85.

YHWH was very specific regarding this issue, fornication. Biblically, fornication is not just "premarital sex".

A modern day violation of this prohibition was committed by Mia Farrow's husband, Woody Allen, who married their adopted daughter. The emotional and psychological pain a woman in this situation would experience is unthinkable, it would undoubtedly be excruciating..... Not only has she lost her husband to another woman, but that woman is her own daughter!

How could a woman in this situation even maintain the same loving relationship with her daughter, I could almost think of no other marital combination that would so emotionally destructive, for one's husband, to actually become her "son in law"!

Brothers, let's change the scenario to your wife, divorcing you and marrying a nephew of yours, who adopted and raised.....Now the wife of your bosom, is your "daughter in law"!

This is why YHWH enacted these laws. As the Prophet Nehemiah says, YHWH's laws are "good laws"......

Neh. 9:13 -
Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

[YahsNiviim]

Shalom
Shoppers on Isle 5 please park your carts. They will not be many people we will talk about this because they have a shopping cart mind set. They pick and chose what they will follow.

[shemuel]

Rachel to try to help with your question, their is nothing wrong with embracing one another in love. In Leviticus Yahweh was starting to deal with all the sexual acts that the Israelites had been custom to throughout their generations,and during the time they were in Eygpt. In Leviticus Yahweh is setting Israel apart from other nations by giving us his orders and ways to live our life as a holy nation. Following his orders is what allows other people and nations to see us as being set apart in the unique way Yahweh has ordered it to be.Greeting believer with a kiss or embrace is not part of this,but we must use wisdom when dealing with people to undestand their motive or agenda when they interact with you. Man can pervert anything Yahweh has created for his own lustful purposes. So use wisdom , some people i embrace, others i shake their hand, others i just speak to, i hope you understand what i am saying. SHALOM

[YahsNiviim]

Shalom
Yes this is true. I do not embrace the sisters in our congregation Because I do not want them to think anything other wise. I have a wife and my wife is their First lady and I respect her enoguh not to give any ideas to the sisters that I am open for any unsense.

You need to talk to me about something then see my wife if she is not involved then we can not talk.

[YahsNiviim]

Ok I just want to throw this out there.

If Scripture is correct then we are all committing incest. As we all come from Adam and Eve.

Now are we far removed from this by way of the angels sleeping with the daughters of men?

Is there more something more to scripture?

Is there a missing piece?

Just something for us to think about.

[Anna]

If you are referring to Gen. 6:1 - 4, the angels spoken of there were not the celestial angels but mere men:

The word Elohim, in the phrase "sons of Elohim" does not have to be translated as angels, but can refer to "judges & nobility"

Strong's H430 - 'elohiym
1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

It can be translated as follows in the KJV:

AV — God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1
~~~~~~~~
The Targums, on this text gives us this insight:

A few Hebraic sources (Symmachus, Aquila and the Targums) identify the “Sons of God” as the sons of nobles or kings who married below their rank

Remember when Yahshua told the Hebrews of His day that they were Elohim, quoted from

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] ELOHIM (H430) ; and all of you [are] children of the most High.