There are many things that are in the bible and there are many things that are not in the bible. Historically and biblically, the Catholic church exists outside of the Christian kingdom. Jesus started only one church and that was in Jersalem on the day of Pentecost. The Protestant churches are the offsprings of the Catholic church having no connection to the church that Jesus started with the apostles at Pentecost. Did any Hebrew teach of more than one God that trinity doctrine poses? Did Jesus, who was born a Hebrew teach of more than one God as trinity doctrine says? Why do we have to look outside of the bible to establish a trinitarian view and doctrine of God? No where in scripture we find that there is a God the Son, or God the Holy Ghost. No where in scripture do we find that there are 3 gods, nor do we find, according to some, 1 god in 3 persons. Wow! so many things are leeched onto our belief system of God really makes u wonder are u truly worshipping the God of the bible. Where do we get that God is a person other than being Jesus? Does the bible say that the Father is a person or a Spirit? John 4:24 Does the bible say that the Holy Ghost is a person? I think we really need to take a look at what is taught by Jesus in the scripture.

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Wow talk a lot don't you?
No, it was just a good copy and paste job. I have the same booklet from bible school. It is here online to download.
I agree with you Sir...we would do well to study what Jesus says of himself, and of His Father, rather than the poorly interpreted prooftexts of Paul concerning the doctrine of God and Christ. The truth is that there is nothing new under the sun. The doctrine of God should be consistent from Genisis throughout the Bible. Where we missed the mark is when we allowed Europeans and the influence of the Catholic church to make us believe that we were to follow NT teaching as though it was something new and different from OT teaching. I think every TRUE apostle, prophet, and anointed scholar needs to revisit the scriptures to find the MIND of God--so we will know what is truth verses biblical tradition, and know HOW to sanctify God a people in whom He is pleased to dwell.

"Hear Oh Israel, the Lord your God is ONE" unless we are serving another God other than the God of Israel (which I strongly suspect we are--that is, the God of Europe), then our God indeed MUST be ONE God. Some scholars and preachers, to deal with the loop holes in trinitarian theology have concluded that God is triune, not trinity. This suggests that God is indeed ONE, eternally self-existent in three manifestations. My only point to this is, how can MAN ascribe a numerical limit to the unphthomnable ways God manifests Himself. Just as we are multidimensional, and nature is multidimensional--God --the creator of all--must also be multidimensional, and His ways are past our finding out. We certainly ought to be trying with all of our mights TO find out. (:

I think if we would come to the table as though we know NOTHING that we have been taught, and seek Him from whom ALL knowledge and truth eminate, and of course, bring our texts (our greek and hebrew), we just might get a REAL revelation of God and of Yeshua, His Christ. Thanks for posting this sensitive topic...I see nobody bothered to even TOUCH it (smile).
Oh my--Bro. West, did you properly exegete these scriptures? I assume that you are a literalist when it comes to the historical Texts of the Bible? If so, I can understand your position. Just a few thoughts here.....A logos (for which english has no real equivalent to the greek concept of this) is a thought or a word expressed--it is NOT a person. This type of interpretation is biblical TRADITION. It is true, that earlier manuscripts do not support the "three bear witness in heaven...the Father, the Word (logos, NOT anthropos--not a man) and the Spirit. This was a later addition and interpretation given by the Roman Catholic Church.

You said well in your closing--"God is a SPIRIT"....He is NOT a MAN that He should lie--That's just it, God is not a man, yet Jesus was a man. It really is not difficult to understand Yeshua's sonship--because now are WE the sons of God...and as many are are led by the Spirit, THEY are the sons of God. Yeshua was the thought or idea of God expressed in flesh ....He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. One cannot be God and also the image of God (just as the 1st Adam was the image of God expressed in physical matter and in spirit, character and nature--but not Elohim--God himself. God is NOT a person. He is exactly as you said-- a Spirit. In fact we refer to God as HE, but spirit is without gender (as gender is specifically for the earth for procuration and balance in the universe). God is a spirit, and we are to worship him IN spirit-- we are not to worship Him as anything physical, or as being ascribed to any place of worship of any religion. This is the teaching of Yeshua, according to our biblical text.

It is very easy to quote scriptures and to beleive the interpretation FORCED upon us by the Church in the West. We need more people properly (as much as is possible at least) exegeting the scriptures, and tapping into the revelatory realm of the Spirit to make the Words of History become alive and relevant for today. Folks have been fighting over the trinity for fact, when people within the Catholic church began to expose the truth regarding the "immaculate conception" (another tradition of the Roman Catholicism), and trinitarian dogma as heretical, some of the church leaders excommunicated, discredited them as heretics, and even murdered some. Must ALL we know and do come from ROMAN Empire? Again, I suggest in all humility that we leaders should approach God and the historical texts as though we know nothing, and seek Him for truth, as tradition has bred self-righteousness and rebellion in our nation.
1st John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood: and these three agree in one.

Here we see that John is stating that God is in three persons. the reason person is used is too identify the differences in the one.
In the Book of Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2) and the earth was void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT of GOD moved upon the face of the waters.
3)And God said let there be light.
You must note that God moves through his spirit.
Now we all know that Jesus(our Lord and savior) is the Son of God.
Matthew 1:18,20
18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with Child of the Holy Ghost.
20) But while he thought on these things, the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Luke 1;34-35
34) Then said Mary unto the Angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35) And the Angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

We must be careful (VERY CAREFUL) when we say that the doctrine of the trinity is from some other teaching and not biblical. How can you assertain the fact that this is not biblical, When God is a Spirit, Jesus Christ his Son was there with him in the beginning, ( the Word), And when he moves by his Power(Holy Ghost).
Jesus and his Disciples and all others who have follwed the True God have performed many miracles and signs, by the power of God (the Holy Ghost) you see it wasn't the rod that was in Moses' hand it was the Power of God that spread the waters. It wasn't so much the Rock that David flung from his sling shot, rather the Power of God (Holy Ghost)
John 1: 32-33
32) And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

you see the Bible is full of references to the Holy Ghost, and we must have all of God in-order to be called his and enter into Heaven. For without God's spirit we cannot please him, We do not have any power to change or deliver.
And please remember many sins shall be forgiven the sons of men , save this one (Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost).
And without the Holy Ghost, we are none of his.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
I am proclaiming to all ( Without the Holy Ghost all of your so-called worship is in vain).
And again God by his Spirit bore witness , and performs his mighty acts, be careful for if the Holy Ghost is not apart of your faith/ then what is your faith, and again if the Spirit is not of God then what is it and who's is it?
The Bible clearly states that these three are one.
all that the romans and Greeks and the english wrote arew they not infallible, for man has always and continues too speak that in which he knows, but the word of God holds up that there are 3 in Heaven who are one, from the begining, they are made known , and truly the greeks romans englishmen and such come after. the bible is clear in what it says. Dogma religion and so forth are nothing more than heresies, for the First Church offered the Holy Ghost, and the Apostles waited for it's coming. and so you must see that God in his infinite wisdom has and does show himself by his power Holy Ghost.
If the power be not of God then what good is it, I am speaking of nothing man made nor just rhetoric, for the Bible does not speak of any spirit as that of a man, and certainly we know that God is not a man.
Literal biblical statements and proper exegisis within cultural and historical contexts, with all due respect, are not one in the same, but nevertheless, to each his own....let GOD be true and every man a liar. Greek TRANSLATION from original texts (that any body has YET to see) indeed IS VERY fallible, and Roman Catholicism is SURELY fallible, as is ALL religion. I cannot see how your reply is pertinent to my call for proper exegisis, but all is well sir and I do respect your opinion.
Sorry for any mix up, but my comment was to Mr. West's literal interpretation of the historical texts--not yours. I' m not sure how to even address your reply, but I think it's safe to say that you thought I was replying to you (mabye I hit the wrong reply button, but I was referring to Mr. West). Any way, let's move on to something that might prove to be a bit more fruitful than theological debate--the truth is, we are ALL wrong when we're THIS strong about historical texts and events many of which are without proof anyway--we believe these things by faith. God is not concerned with out debate, or even our disagreements (especially when we are convinced that above all others, we ourselves are right). I say again, let God be true and every man a liar. I appreciate your study and willingness to be different.

I quoted the word of God, as pertaining too the Holy ghost. Now all of your proper exegesis, and greek and catholic bashing i am bot apart of, Now if you can't see or haven't been told, that is between you and the god you serve. For if There is no trinity . Why is he therefore mentioned as triune, Tri stands for three. For I have read when the Apostles looked around for 7 men they were too be full of the HOLY GHOST how can one know God and not have this teaching. Too debate is futile, and the bible says you will know a fool by their much speaking. Historically, and dogmatic you may very well feel as though you know something that others do not. but one must believe the Word for it clearly states that THESE THREE ARE ONE.
aND THROUGH ALL OF THE STUDY OF THE OTHER FORMS AND LANGUAGES OF THE wORD, ARE THEY FAULT PROOF. For none will know if they sre right until the day of judgement, funny thing about this website, Seems that so-called Christians are more interested in lies, and futile questions than in the truth.
Do you all not realize that if there is no triune God (trinity) then all of our ancestors were wrong, then the Pentecostal faith has been a joke.
Answer this if the Holy Ghost , is not apart of the Godhead then from whence does it come?
Brother West,

since when has historical truth been greek and catholic bashing? I don't have to bash the catholic church--I grew up in it. The information is out there. Just FYI, I am a Pentecostal filled with the Holy Ghost. So I'm not sure what your issue is. It seems you fault me for being a biblical scholar, and for being well studied. That seems a bit harsh. Truthfully, far too many of our preachers and teachers BUTCHER the scriptures and teach tradition and spiritualism without pure revelation from God, scholarship, or proper exegesis of the text. We need all THREE! Is your understanding superior to ours because you take what has been translated at face value, and we study what and why it has been translated?

You are correct when you suggests that older translations, forms and languages are not fault proof. If you are correct in your premise --and I believe you are-- then if the language and earlier forms of the texts are faulty, the versions and transliterations from which our many versions of the bible have evolved would necessarily HAVE to be faulty also. GOD knows, and I STILL say as the scripture, "let GOD be true, and EVERY man a liar:.

Trinity and Triune are not necessarily synonymous, and there are pentecostal denominations that do not believe in the trinity as well--they believe in the "oneness doctrine". Some pentecostals believe that the Holy Spirit is the essence of God--for God Himself is spirit, and He his Holy (hense holy spirit), and they believe that Jesus is the son of God--not both son OF God and God Himself. It IS interesting that no Old Testament scritpures speak to such a thing...yet they reveal the nature of God. There is something right with all of our views, and inherently something wrong with them all.

You quoted the King James Version of the Bible...what about earlier versions that do not contain the verse in John about the father, the word, and the spirit? There are several versions...which ONE are you saying is THE word?

YOu are right--this is futile, and none will know until we meet our Maker. But yet you say that most of us on the site are interested in lies and futile questions than the truth. If none of us indeed knows, then this accusation and judgement is VERY contradictory (and you have falsely accused me), because then that would assume that YOU are the only one right. Kingdom people are interested in righteousness, not in being right. Moreover, when people in in true relationship with God, they are more interested in what the bible MEANT than what it SAID. Again, Sir, I respect your opinion, though I do not fully agree--so sorry that you cannot likewise respect the factual data I present.
"You are right--this is futile, and none will know until we meet our Maker."

I see this as being as big a heresy as anything, to say that you will not know GOD until you meet your Maker. I have seen the LORD Himself a few times, and I can say that I know Him. I don't know all about Him, but I know Him enough to tell you that I have good reason to adhere to the Trinity doctrine.
Hold on brother, John never refers to God in 3 persons. the only person is Jesus. The bible says these 3 are one, but the trinity doctrine perverts and says 1 god in 3 persons. this is clearly not scripture. This is added from Catholic doctrine to circumvent and pose as Christianity. Jesus nor any other hebrew or apostle ever taught of a 3 god doctrine as Catholics and offsprings do. Trinity doctrine is not biblical. God is a Spirit not a person. The bible clearly does not state God as being any other than being in the person of Jesus.


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