Trinity Doctrine? Biblical or Catholic Teaching
There are many things that are in the bible and there are many things that are not in the bible. Historically and biblically, the Catholic church exists outside of the Christian kingdom. Jesus started only one church and that was in Jersalem on the day of Pentecost. The Protestant churches are the offsprings of the Catholic church having no connection to the church that Jesus started with the apostles at Pentecost. Did any Hebrew teach of more than one God that trinity doctrine poses? Did Jesus, who was born a Hebrew teach of more than one God as trinity doctrine says? Why do we have to look outside of the bible to establish a trinitarian view and doctrine of God? No where in scripture we find that there is a God the Son, or God the Holy Ghost. No where in scripture do we find that there are 3 gods, nor do we find, according to some, 1 god in 3 persons. Wow! so many things are leeched onto our belief system of God really makes u wonder are u truly worshipping the God of the bible. Where do we get that God is a person other than being Jesus? Does the bible say that the Father is a person or a Spirit? John 4:24 Does the bible say that the Holy Ghost is a person? I think we really need to take a look at what is taught by Jesus in the scripture.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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I too believe that nothing happens (even when satan does his work) if God didn't allow it. Even we that have choice and not instinct like animals the things we do is allowed by God. We just have to answer for our choices.
Brother Adrian I too don't like the term Relgion because I feel it is man made and not from God. I feel God could care less about our so called religions we create. We have created religions to justify our doing things that one belief wouldn't allow you to do. One claims to be better than the other. I don't believe in so called religious handles.
One area I would like to truly understand is "speaking in tongues". I'm going to start a discussion on just that to hopefully get some understanding of it. I just don't see it in the bible where speaking in tongues means someone has this gift of speaking like angels or something. When I read in Acts 10:44 -46 when the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. It never says they heard them speak IN tongues but speak WITH tongues. To me this meant they were able to understand one anothers language such as Greek, Hebrew, Italian and so forth. I can never find this SPEAKING IN TONGUES! Please someone direct me to where this is in the bible. Thank you in advance.
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Permalink Reply by Napoleon J. Harris V on
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Yes, God may allow many things, but that doesn't mean that God wills them or wants them to happen! When I speak of God's will I am discussing what God wants, not what God allows.
I encourage you to have that tounges speaking forum. I have a question I'd love to aks on there!
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There is definitely a difference in allows and wills my Brother! By the way I did start the speaking with/in tongues forum. This is something I've heard all my life but I just can't find it to be specific. I've seen those that supposedly were speaking in tongue and then would see them later high as a kite on drugs. I just want to know this if it is for me to know and understand.
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When some or most of these TV ministers say that God wants them to be rich, is that an example of using the bible to serve their own needs? Because I've read the bible lots of times and have never seen that in the bible where God wants us to be rich. I did read where Jesus said Matt 19:23 - 24.
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Yes that's a perfect example my brother.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Maxcina Gadsden on
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The Doctrine of the Trinity must be interpreted in a manner that would be consistent with this definition of the deity of God (One essence, three persons).
The Trinity Doctrine Explanation
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God pours His Spirit into the body of Christ then fill Him with the Holy Spirit and then they became one.
The Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
The Parallelism
The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (2 Cor.13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
Catholic Teaching: Trinity Doctrine
"All the Catholic interpreters of the divine books of the Old and New Testaments whom I have been able to read, who wrote before me about the Trinity, which is God, intended to teach in accord with the Scriptures that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one and the same substance constituting a divine unity with an inseparable equality; and therefore there are not three gods but one God, although the Father begot the Son, and therefore he who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, himself, too, coequal to the Father and to the Son and belonging to the unity of the Trinity" (The Trinity 1:4:7 [A.D. 408]).
Trinity is known as Trinitarianism
Scriptural texts cited as implying support
To support Trinitarianism, Bible exegetes cite references to the Trinity, to Jesus as God, and both to God alone and to Jesus as the Savior.
References to the Trinity
A few verses directly reference the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:
• Matthew 3:16–17: "As soon as Jesus Christ was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and landing on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' " (also Mark 1:10–11; Luke 3:22; John 1:32)
• Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (see Trinitarian formula).
• 2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."
• 1 John 5:7–8: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
• Luke 1:35: "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.' "
• Hebrews 9:14: "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"
Jesus as God
Many verses in John, the epistles, and Revelation imply support for the doctrine that Jesus Christ is God and the closely related concept of the Trinity. The Gospel of John in particular supports Jesus' divinity. This is a partial list of supporting Bible verses:
• John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's
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Part II: Trinity Doctrine? Biblical or Catholic Teaching
Since the 1980’s, some evangelical theologians have come to the conclusion that the members of the Trinity may be economically unequal while remaining ontologically equal. This theory was put forward by George W. Knight III in his 1977 book The New Testament Teaching on the Role Relationship of Men and Women, states that the Son of God is eternally subordinated in authority to God the Father.[48] This conclusion was used as a means of supporting the main thesis of his book: that women are permanently subordinated in authority to their husbands in the home and to male leaders in the church, despite being ontologically equal. Subscribers to this theory insist that the Father has the role of giving commands and the Son has the role of obeying them.
Old Testament Evidence - Old Testament Theophanous
In the Old Testament, several theophanies are recorded in which "God appeared" to one or more human beings in a physical manifestation that could be seen and heard. Jews will reply that "God appearing" does not signify His being in human form since the Jewish bible states in Numbers 23:19 that "God is not a man that He should lie" and that "none is like Him."
• Genesis 12:7,18:1 — God appeared to Abraham
• Genesis 26:2,24 — God appeared to Isaac
• Genesis 35:1,9,48:3 — God appeared to Jacob
• Exodus 3:16,4:5 — God appeared to Moses
• Exodus 6:3 — God appeared to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob
• Leviticus 9:4,16:2 — God appeared to Aaron
• Deuteronomy 31:15 — God appeared to Moses and Joshua
• 1Samuel 3:21 — God appeared to Samuel
• 1Kings 3:5,9:2,11:9 — God appeared to Solomon
• 2Chronicles 1 — God appeared to David
• 2Chronicles 7:12 — God appeared to Solomon
The Angel (Messenger) of the Lord
• Genesis 16:7–14
• Genesis 22:9–14
• Exodus 3:2
• Exodus 23:20,21
• Numbers 22:21–35
• Judges 2:1–5
• Judges 6:11–22
God identified as "the Father" in the Old Testament
• Deuteronomy 32:6 (Moses' time)
• Isaiah 63:15,64:8 (pre-exile)
• Malachi 2:10 (post-exile)
God identified as "the Son" in the Old Testament
God is never identified as "the Son" in the Old Testament. Israel is called God's first born son. Others are referred to as God's son, but the various references pointed to by Christians in the Old Testament are either mistranslations or taken out of context.
Trinitarians will point to Psalm 2 and state that it includes the phrase "kiss his Son." This is a mistranslation into English as the word in Psalm 2 is "bar" which means son in Aramaic, but not Hebrew. The Psalm is written in Hebrew and the Hebrew word for son is "ben" which does not appear in the psalm. From the Catholic Bible (note no "son"):
“Serve the Lord with fear; with trembling bow down in homage, Lest God be angry and you perish from the way in a sudden blaze of anger. Happy are all who take refuge in God”. (The New American Bible – Catholic)
"bow down in homage" is the correct translation, not "kiss the son."
Isaiah 9 (often used by Christians to speak of Jesus) is actually in past tense, the same is true for Proverbs 30:4 and other "proof texts."
God the Spirit in the Old Testament
• 1Samuel 10:10,19:20,23
• 2Samuel 23:1
• 1Kings 22:24
• Nehemiah 9:30
• Psalms 51:11
• Isaiah 63:10,11
• Micah 2:7
Deity of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament:
• Job 33:4
• Psalms 104:30
• Psalms 139:7
Words of the Holy Spirit called the words of God:
• 1Samuel 10:10
• 2Samuel 23:2
• Zechariah 7:12,12:10
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John and Napoleon please keep your topic of discussion seperate from the assign topic. This topic is about the Doctrine of The Trinity.
I have notice several other conversations going on. 1. Speaking in Tongues 2. Prosperity- What is the true meaning?
Guys, this is unfair to those who are trying to following the author topic of choice.
I love the topic of choice from both of you. Of course, I will participate in your discussion topic but please put them in the appropriate area.
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Matthew 19:23-24 NASB
V23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
V24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Dr. Maxcina Response:
Though Christ spoke so strongly, few that have riches do not trust in them. How few that are poor are not tempted to envy! But men's earnestness in this matter is like their toiling to build a high wall to shut themselves and their children out of heaven. It should be satisfaction to those who are in a low condition, that they are not exposed to the temptations of a high and prosperous condition. If they live more hardly in this world than the rich, yet, if they get more easily to a better world, they have no reason to complain. Christ's words show that it is hard for a rich man to be a good Christian, and to be saved.
The way to heaven is a narrow way to all, and the gate that leads into it, a strait gate; particularly so to rich people. More duties are expected from them than from others, and more sins easily beset them. It is hard not to be charmed with a smiling world. Rich people have a great account to make up for their opportunities above others. It is utterly impossible for a man that sets his heart upon his riches, to get to heaven. Christ used an expression, denoting a difficulty altogether unconquerable by the power of man. Nothing less than the almighty grace of God will enable a rich man to get over this difficulty. Who then can be saved? If riches hinder rich people, are not pride and sinful lusts found in those not rich, and as dangerous to them? Who can be saved? Say the disciples. None, said Christ, by any created power. The beginning, progress, and perfecting the work of salvation, depend wholly on the almighty power of God, to which all things are possible. Not that rich people can be saved in their worldliness, but that they should be saved from it.
Peter said, We have forsaken all. Alas! It was but a poor all, only a few boats and nets; yet observes how Peter speaks, as if it had been some mighty thing. We are too apt to make the most of our services and sufferings, our expenses and losses, for Christ. However, Christ does not upbraid them; though it was but little that they had forsaken, yet it was their all, and as dear to them as if it had been more. Christ took it kindly that they left it to follow him; he accepts according to what a man hath.
Our Lord's promise to the apostles is that when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, he will make all things new, and they shall sit with him in judgment on those who will be judged according to their doctrine. This sets forth the honor, dignity, and authority of their office and ministry.
Our Lord added that every one who had forsaken possessions or comforts, for his sake and the gospel, would be recompensed at last. May God give us faith to rest our hope on this his promise; then we shall be ready for every service or sacrifice. Our Savior, in the last verse, does away a mistake of some. The heavenly inheritance is not given as earthly ones are, but according to God's pleasure. Let us not trust in promising appearances or outward profession. Others may, for aught we know, become eminent in faith and holiness.
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To understanding PROSPERITY, we must understand the 7 LEVELS OF ECONOMIC REVENUE which gives balance to what money is and how it affects our daily lives. By doing this, we become aware of TRUE PROSPERITY which is “The Fruit of the Spirit”. Outlined in Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law".
The 7 levels of Economic Revenue
1. Wisdom
2. Vision
3. Information
4. Good Name
5. Relationship
6. Property
7. Cash Money
We must remember that SUCCESS is not PROSPERITY. It is God’s WILL for our life. God will fund our success; if we connect to the desires of His heart.
Let’s do math the way God sees it:
1+1=1(Spiritual) Man + God, Jesus & Holy Spirit
Which has more value? Hint: The Spirit always overrule the Natural
1+1=2(Natural) Man + Flesh
In getting understanding of our assignment/calling will cause us to stop chasing prosperity without success and not knowing our purpose.
True prosperity is going through the process.
We must stop preaching to the flesh but to the spirit man. True prosperity is seeking the Kingdom first and makes a commitment along with a covenant to God.
True prosperity is doing God Business.
Scriptural References:
Deuteronomy 11:14 NASB “that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil.”
Deuteronomy 28:13 NASB “And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them.”
Deuteronomy 30:9 NASB “Then the LORD your God will prosper you abundantly in all the work of your hand, in the offspring of your body and in the offspring of your cattle and in the produce of your ground, for the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, just as He rejoiced over your fathers;
2 Samuel 7:8, 9 NASB V8 "Now therefore, thus you shall say to My servant David, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel. V9 "I have been with you wherever you have gone and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the names of the great men who are on the earth.
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Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues
"I wish you all spoke with tongues..." 1 Corinthians 14:5 excerpt - NKJV
What is speaking in tongues?
• Definitions: Tongues: "ecstatic, usually unintelligible utterance accompanying religious excitation" Ecstasy: "a state of overwhelming emotion; especially: rapturous delight" (both from Webster's Dictionary)
• Speaking in tongues is a unique way of communicating with God, and edifying oneself and/or others (1 Corinthians 14:4-5). It is most often used in prayer and worship.
• Tongues and interpretation are gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:28, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11).
• Tongues speak to God through "mysteries" of the spirit (1 Corinthians 14:2). Similarly, praying in tongues is praying with the spirit and singing in tongues is singing in the spirit. The natural man will not understand these manifestations unless interpretation is given (1 Corinthians 14:2, 14).
• Tongues can be a sign that a person follows Jesus Christ, but it is not a requirement (Mark 16:17)
Why speak in tongues?
• We receive edification needed for spiritual warfare (1 Corinthians 14:4). Tongues are like "spiritual battery charging”. Spiritual warfare often weakens faith and hope, and tongues can help rebuild them. Paul spoke more in tongues than many Christians (1 Corinthians 14:18), and it is likely that he used tongues to edify himself during his many tribulations and trials (2 Corinthians 11:22-31).
• The effectiveness of our intercessory prayer is increased: When we don't know how to pray, tongues directly engages the intercession of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26).
• Our communication and worship of God is carried to a deeper spiritual level (1 Corinthians 14:2)
• It is an opportunity to yield ourselves to God in humility. Speaking in tongues surrenders our human desire for control and understanding to God.
Points about tongues and interpretation:
• 1 Corinthians 14 is a key reference chapter for tongues. See 1 Corinthians 12-13 for helpful information on all the gifts of the Spirit.
• Tongues may take the form of an unknown (1 Corinthians 14:2 , 2 Corinthians 12:2-6) or known language (Acts 2:8-12)
• As with all Spirit's gifts, tongues and interpretation should be grounded in love (1 Corinthians 13:1,4-7)
• Tongues should be exercised in a peaceful, organized manner, not in confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33)
• A person speaking in tongues should pray that he may interpret (1 Corinthians 14:13)
• Tongues in a worship service are best done with interpretation, so that all people present are edified (1 Corinthians 14:26-28). Paul explained that there should be two or at most three people speaking in turn; one person (at least) should interpret; if there is no one to interpret, the speaker should keep silent, speaking to himself and God (1 Corinthians 14:27-28).
• People should not ascribe tongues or other works of the Spirit to the work of Satan (Matthew 12:22-32), nor should they forbid speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39).
The Apostle Paul’s comments on tongues: Paul wrote the majority of Bible's guidance on tongues. Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14:18 that he spoke in tongues more than any of the Corinthians. He also witnessed a form of tongues ("inexpressible words" NKJV) during a miraculous revelation in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-6). His comments provide expert guidance on the subject:
• Paul desired that all the Corinthian Christians would have spoken in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5).
• People who spoke in tongues should pray for interpretation of the tongues (1 Corinthians 14:14)
• Paul found it best to engage his mind when he prayed or sang with the spirit in case interpretation might be given (1 Corinthians 14:15).
• For group gatherings, he preferred to speak in plain language so that all present could be edified (1 Corinthians 14:19).
Examples of tongues in the early church: The accounts of speaking in tongues in the New Testament coincide with special moves of the Holy Spirit, when the believers received a "filling" of the Holy Spirit:
• Acts 2:1-13 – Jews at Pentecost are filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues
• Acts 10:45-47 -- Gentiles receive the Spirit at Cornelius’ house and speak in tongues
• Acts 19:5-7 – Ephesians Christians filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues
Discover the gift of tongues
What if I don’t want to pray in tongues? It is not mandatory that every Christian speak in tongues, and his/her salvation certainly does not depend on it. God will not force His gifts on anyone, as He is gentle and patient. If you don’t feel comfortable praying in tongues, then don't! You can still pray effectively with confidence that God will hear and intercede in your prayers.
Speaking in tongues is often used in prayer in the Spirit. Tongues are a vehicle by which our spirit prays, while our mind may or may not understand what we are praying. Paul described this in 1 Corinthians 14:14-15 NIV: "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." Some people refer to tongues as a special "prayer language." Paul mentioned that he frequently spoke in tongues and wished that other believers would do the same (1 Corinthians 14:5, 18).
Prayer in the Spirit is an important, ongoing activity of spiritual warfare. Paul included it in his discussion of the whole armor of God in Ephesians 6:18 and Jude mentioned it in his epistle:
"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints" Ephesians 6:18 NKJV
“But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life” Jude 20-21 NIV
Our Role: There are two participants involved with prayer in the Spirit - the Holy Spirit and us. Our part is to pray “always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit” and “to be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints.” This does not mean that we have to be on our knees all day and night with eyes closed in prayer. Prayer in the Spirit is an inner activity of the mind and spirit where we maintain a type of open dialogue with God through the Holy Spirit. Outward actions such as bowing the head and closing the eyes may help us focus better on God, but it’s the inner communication with God that matters most.
In order to always be in prayer, we’ll need to be in control of our thoughts. When our thoughts are stuck on sinful fantasies, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to be in prayer. This is one of the reasons why we are to use the spiritual weapons God gives us to continually be “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:5 KJV).
The definition of supplication is "asking for humbly or earnestly, as by praying" (American Heritage Dictionary). Prayer is an acknowledgement that we are not in control and need God to intervene. This attitude opens the door for communication with God, who can direct and apply our prayers in ways far beyond our understanding. Therefore, when we pray to God, we should do so earnestly in humility, inviting the Holy Spirit to work in the situation as God wills. It is really that simple.
The Spirit's Role: Once we’ve prayed, the Spirit intercedes for us and pleads in our behalf according to God’s will. Paul described how the Spirit intercedes in Romans 8:26-27:
“26So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.
27And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God's will.” Romans 8:26-27 AMP
Leaving prayer concerns in God's hands can be challenging for us if we’re prone to being in control and thinking we know what God should do. Too often prayer becomes us telling God what to do, i.e. praying our will instead of his will be done (Matthew 6:10). In situations where God's will is unclear, we should take care not to presume his will. Praying in the Spirit doesn't require that we speak intelligible words, but simply that we lift up the situation to God, and trust that the Holy Spirit will intercede perfectly for us.
What prayer in the Spirit accomplishes: There are some important things that happen when we pray in the Spirit.
Specifically, prayer in the Spirit:
• Perfects our prayer (Romans 8:26)
• Takes our case directly before God (Romans 8:27)
• Increases effectiveness of prayer for others (intercessory prayer) (Romans 8:27)
• Aligns our prayer with God's will (Romans 8:26-27)
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Thank you so very very much. I'm sorry to have brought this up here but I had a discussion and no one would talk about it but Brother West. I have been trying to understand and needed God to show me and He has through you. I was always believing that speaking in tongues meant the people were engulfed with the Holy Spirit and then started understanding tongues such as Greek, Hebrew, Italian and such where before they only knew their own tongue. Praise God! Whew!
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