There is a doctrine floating around that has been active for over 200 years. It is called Once saved always saved aka OSAS. OSAS is when a believer gets saved, they are saved forever. But is this true?

Do you not know that OSAS rules out repentance? How so? Because If I am OSAS, and my past, present, future sins are forgiven, then there is no need to repent of the sins that I will commit. But this aint true.

The Greek word for repent means to turn from the sins you did, and turn from your present sins.

There is a scripture in John 6 that OSAS'ers love to use to prove that you are saved and always saved. Jesus said in John 6:39 - And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Notice the phrase," That I should lose nothing". AHH yes, you see. We cant give up salvation!, but low and behold.. this is not what that phrase means in the Greek. The Greek phrase is "Apollumi me". This is a subjunctive phrase. When something is subjunctive, that means it shows uncertainty, and the possibility that it may or may not happen.

In other words.. it is possible for a believer to forfeit their salvation. Another truth is that it is very unlikely that it will happen If you are deeply rooted in Jesus. Jesus, and the apostles tell us to "continue in the faith." If forfeiting salvation was not possible, then I dont think Jesus and the apostles would exhort us to endure to the end, continue in the faith, or fight the good fight, because in the end, we will endure anyways . Let my people think!! Will you think? Get rid of all biases which I know you already have done that.

Another proof of forfeiting salvation is in Hebrews 6, where they tasted, partook of Gods things, but then they fell away, and in this type of falling away(The kind that has your heart completly turned away from God, never to come back), you cannot be bought back to repentance, thus being lost with no hope of salvation.

Someone may say,"If OSAS is not true, then we have a works salvation." Well I believe this would have it backwards. We do not have a works salvation on our entrance into it, but we do work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We must abide in the faith, we must obey his commands. You know that is true.

All of these are works, and you will admit that they are works. They are our works, and God does not do these for us. This is what we call the santification process, which is on our part, and God gives us the power to do it. What would you do with that power?

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Now the OSASer resorts to "Well, I trust in the finished work of the cross for my salvation, and that's all I need to do!"

I'm going to bust your bubble on this one. The phrase "trusting in the finished work of the cross" does not exist in scriptures, nor does anything even resemble it. Search for it as you may, there is no such verse.


No, but "it is finished" is.
LOL! I CAUGHT IT!
I thought I'd jump back in here. We must understand that, from a Jewish perspective of scripture, it is believed(Law & The Prophets can attest) that one could surely give up their salvation, thus, having their names blotted out of the book of life. Ezekiel states that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, and practice sin, then his righteousness will be forgotten.Yeshua stated that if we abide not in him, then he will cut off that branch, and that branch will be burned.

Throughout scripture, salvation has always been conditional. What does one mean by conditional? It is conditional because man has free will to reject anything that God gives, including the gift of eternal life. The bible has always encourage the saints to endure, and abide. I'd say that if salvation was impossible to walk away from, then there would be no reason to exhort the saints to stay in the race. Many scriptures can attest to truth of conditional salvation.

Many saints will use the excuse to say,"we are not under the Old testament." Without the OT, then there would be no NT. You cannot x out the OT to support a doctrine that does not exist, because the OT clearly refutes unconditional salvation in every way, and God DOES NOT change. Jesus kept the Torah of the OT, and so did his Apostles. If the OT taught conditional salvation, which is evident in the law and the Prophets, then you better believe Jesus, and his Apostles will teach it.

It is true that many who leave were never really of the faith. They most likely had many reasons for converting in a false way, and yet you have true believers who fall away from the faith also. So you have it this way. The duty of a saint of God is to keep God's commandments, and abide in Christ Jesus. And each saint has this choice. Jesus will not keep you if you do not want to be kept. You have a choice. We are not robots, and Jesus does not control us. Either you abide, or you fall away, it is all your choice, but God's says always choose life, and REMAIN!
It is true that many who leave were never really of the faith

Anything after this statement we begin to try and play God, because now we set our finite expectations as to what salvation is and how its obtained. When God is infinite. His word says

Isaiah 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

So really as much wrestling we do on this subject neither you nor I can look into the hearts of man like God can.

and yet you have true believers who fall away from the faith also

Is there an example in the bible NT or OT of one individual that fits this catergory?
Its better to quote the rest of my statement, then to pick out what you think fits your way of thinking. The point is not neccessarily who did it in scripture, because there are people that fell away from the faith, rather, its more about that its true that it can happen. 1 Tim shows people falling away from the faith, and listening to doctrines of demons. Saul lost the Holy Spirit. Many Israelis fell away from the faith. Some came back, and some stayed in paganism. Have you read the Prophets?

I challenge you to actually "read" the bible, and pay close attention to detail of the Prophets messages, calling Israel back to repentance. Some came back, and some did not. Why do you think Elijah became depressed because there was no one around him serious about repentance, and returning to God's law? God spoke to him and said he has 7000 faithful ones as his remnant, them that did not turn away.

Jesus, who was law observant, says abide in him, and "then" he will love you, and make his home with you. Do not be deceived by "osas", because its heresey, leading people to thinking their saved when they practice sin, when in reality, they left the faith the moment they chose to practice sin. If they do not return asap, their hearts will get so hardened, to the point where they will never repent.

The only person that really wrestles around is you, because you seem to have a hard time accepting what "all" the bible(OT & NT) says about salvation, and I can tell you one thing... if the OT teaches conditional salvation, then the NT will agree with its foundation. I know you know this is true.
I read everything you said, I just wanted to deal with the things I had questions on. Thank you for not answering them, but telling me I dont "read" my bible. Just because I dont agree with you does that mean I dont read my bible? And I dont have a hard time accepting "all" of what the bible says, I just dont agree with alot of the thigs you say it says. Doesnt make you right and me wrong it just means we dont agree. If I knew what you were saying was the truth I would have agreed with you, I DONT! No biggie I know were you stand, you know were I stand and thats enough to agree on there, and agreement to disagree.

P.S.- Lets not get into when God loves you again.LOL
Yeshua says,"REMAIN in me, and THEN you will be my disciple."
I'm looking for that verse and I cant find it, but I did find

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Look we dont agree on somethings no big deal (well kinda of not a big deal), but is we agree that salvation can only be obtained through faith in Jesus, and that a life in Christ will produce fruits of righteousness, and that the destination for the believer will be the presence of the Almighty then lets leave it there. Because I dont understand what you hoping to accomplish now.
abide & remain are the same thing. remain is more simple than abide, and some translations use remain. But, what I said still remains, if you remain, THEN you will be his disciple, but if you do not remain, then he will cut you off(John 15). What am I trying to accomplish? I am getting the word out that osas is heresey!
Saul of the OT or NT?
Ok I did not want to leave this topic with this suggestion and not come back a say what I found in soing what was suggested for me to do. And the biggest thing I found out when looking at the life of Saul was this when the people came to Samuel they asked a very specific question which was this;

1 Samuel 8:5
And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

The people requested a king like everybody else. They were looking at the world and wanting what the world had, becasue they felt that it was better than the position they were already in;

1 Samuel 8:7
And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

God basically said give them what they ask for. A king just like all the nations they were looking to instead of looking to Him. He even gave Samuel a specific instruction and that was;

1 Samuel 8:10-22
And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. [11] And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. [12] And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. [13] And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. [14] And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. [15] And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. [16] And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. [17] He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. [18] And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

God was telling them they were asking for just any'ole king and that was exactly what they were goign to get a king that would only be focused on HIMSELF and not on God.

[19] Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; [20] That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us,(GOD JUDGING THEM WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH) and go out before us, and fight our battles (HOW SOON THEY FORGOT WHO WAS FIGHTING THE BATTLES FOR THEM THUS FAR). [21] And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the Lord. [22] And the Lord said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

And God again reassured Samule it's not you they are rejecting. THe king they were about to recieve can be equated to the person from Titus who;
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Isreal's king would be a prepatrator. He would have a form of godliness (be apart of the people, show some outward spritual signs but his heart was not with God.) This is why we see when God rejected Saul, the first thing Samuel told Saul was;

1 Samuel 13:14
But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Saul was never a man after the heart of God! So to assert that Saul was "saved" and then lost it does not line up.

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