At what point does a person continue in sin to the point that there salvation is lost?

[Rev. Eric Culberson Jr.]

This is a question I asked in a blog about wether or not salvation can be lost and Im waiting on an answer so I decided to ask it hear what say you all?

If you dont understand the question I'll ask it this way, if you believe salvation can be lost my question is at what point does it happen?

And another question I have is what does it mean to continue in sin?

[James Pierce]

if you believe salvation can be lost my question is at what point does it happen?

It happens when your heart completely turns away from HaShem, and is set on never coming back(Hebrews 6:4 6).

what does it mean to continue in sin?

First, you must define what sin is? 1 John 3:4 says sin is breaking the Torah. So, to continue in sin is to continue in breaking HaShem's Torah.

[Eccl. 12:13]

.

Let's find the fate of the sinner and the righteous;

Ezek.18
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Now we know what a sinner is, it is one that breaks the LAWS of God, which, according to God's inspired word, ALL have done. And the scriptures says he that sinneth shall die. The death spoken of here is the second death. Now let's read what happens if the sinner turns from his ways, or STOP breaking God's laws;

[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

So the sinner can change his fate. If he STOPS breaking Gods laws NONE of his transgressions will even be mentioned.

Now let's see if there is a flip side to this. Let's read what happens to the righteous when they stop obeying God’s laws.

[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So ALL of the good things a righteous person does can be wiped away and counted for nothing if he starts sinning. And does he have the chance to redeem himself? Let's read;

[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

So if the ONCE righteous DIES in his sins, he shall die the second death.

I would say Gods ways are fair and equal just as He says in His word.

Let's read what Paul had to say about the possibility of him NOT making it into God's kingdom;

1Cor.9
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So even Paul realized that it was possible for him to blow the mission and miss the mark, if he did not keep his body under subjection.

Now there are some we KNOW will be in God's kingdom, but let's look just how close it will be even for them;

1Pet.4
[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

And just who are some of the righteous that we KNOW will be in God's kingdom? Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David, the prophets and the 12 apostles, just to name a few.

Now if these JUST make it in, I can see why Paul says he himself may be a castaway if he does not continue to do what is right. And if THEY just make it in, where does that put us?

Let’s look at just a few more scriptures;

Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Now let’s see just what book is being spoken of here;

Rev.3
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

WOW!!! Just think about that for a moment. A persons name that is written in God’s book of life can be removed!!! I mean, they were there!! Their name was in THE BOOK!!! So what could have happened for their name to be removed from God’s book of life? Could God have changed the rules? Not according to scripture;

Mal.3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not…
Heb.13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So if God doesn’t change….. The only other thing that can change is YOU!!!!



.

[Scott R. Newman]

Amen Bishop

"Once saved, always saved" is certainly good theology and biblical -- providing it is properly understood! The term is used "loosely" today, and to way too many it means that if someone, at anytime in their life, made a profession of faith, or "prayed the prayer" or "accepted Christ", and then backslide or live in sin or even reject Christ altogether, they are still saved! NOT! The issue then is not an issue of "once-saved-always-saved" but an issue of "never-truely-saved", and bearing the evidence and fruit of it by falling away or continuing to live in sin.

Real salvation is produced by God - "Salvation is of the Lord" - through regeneration by the Holy Spirit (as you know). Because it is all about the new birth; about receiving a new heart, a new spirit and the Spirit Himself, who "causes us to walk in His statutes" (see Ezekiel 36:27), salvation cannot fail (when properly brought about by God). The same God who loved and elected us before the foundation of the world, and then called us with a holy calling in time, is the same sovereign God who perfects what HE BEGINS! "He that hath begun a good work in you will perfect that which He began." So the issue isn't "once-saved-always-saved", as the Bible clearly teaches that wonderful truth. Rather its that wonderful truth being misappropriated and misapplied to people who have made empty professions of faith, void of the Spirit of God and of the new birth!

[Caral]

Amen Brother Scott.

Salvation cannot fail, once regenerated the Son shall not lose one from His hand. The elect are chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world.

I believe the christianization (accepting religious philosophies) of people is what is causing devision within the Body, it is demoralising and hurting the Ekklesia. We believe that they have received Salvation and we welcome them in as our own, and yet they come into our midst with their carnality and false doctrines and even accuse us of bigotry and intolerant, when really they were never with us or one of us.

[Eccl. 12:13]

Jesus says a name can be BLOTTED out of the book of life;

Rev.3
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here are a few simple questions:

What happens to the person that dies and their names have NOT been blotted out of the book of life? Will they make it into God's kingdom?

On the other hand;

What happens to the person that dies and his name has been BLOTTED out of the book of Life? Where is that persons final dwellign place?

In BOTH cases names were IN the book of life, but Jesus says a name can be removed.

Let's re-read what God's inspired word says about the RIGHTEOUS!

[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So ALL of the good things a righteous person does can be wiped away and counted for nothing if he starts sinning. And does he have the chance to redeem himself? Let's read;

[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Now what if the righteous did NOT do any iniquity? I'm sure his fate would be much different.

God is as fair as they come.

When the sinner stops sinning and obeys the word of God and continues until he dies he is rewarded.

When the righteous STOPS obeying God and dies and does not repent, that once righteous person dies in his sins and he too is rewarded....with the second death.

That's the word of God. Now let's look at the word of man and find the definition of the word, 'predestinate'.

pre·des·ti·nate

Definition: 1. foreordained: decided in advance

So God decided in advance that He would call and justify and share His glory. The word DOES NOT MEAN He knew just who it was that would take part in what He decided in advance.

What an UNFAIR God that would be to choose ahead of time who would be saved and who would not.

[James Pierce]

Scott,

When Paul was preaching, he was approached by the Berean people. These people were very noble, and they judged everything by the Torah & The Prophets. Acts 17,"Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."

This is what we must do. The doctrine of OSAS is no different. Briefly, let us see how this doctrine stacks up against Torah & The Prophets...

One of the tenents of OSAS is that we have eternal salvation, and we cannot possibly give it up. Let us see what Yehwah has to say about this.... First, we must take into account "freewill." Man has the free will to either continue in obedience, or discontinue in it.

Let us first start off in Genesis, where it all starts. Genesis 2:9,"And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

You have:

1) Tree of life
2) Tree of the knowledge of Good or bad

These are the choices that Adam and Eve have. The doctrine of OSAS does not have room for choices, being that, according to this doctrine, saved folk will always go to the tree of life without free will to disobey by going to the good and bad tree.

Yehwah brings the choices into effect by saying this... Genesis 2:16-17,"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Yehwah states that they could eat of any tree, except the tree of the knowledge of good or evil. If OSAS was actually true, then we would expect it to be decreed from the beginning, right?

As we can see from the mouth of our Father, we have choice to either obey by eating from the tree of life, or disobey by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

So, free has started in the first book of the bible, from the mouth of Yehwah. Let us go to Dueteronomy and see what He says in His beautiful Torah.

What I am about to show you is similar to what Yehwah gave Adam & Eve in th garden.. a choice to obey, or not to obey. Obedience brings blessings and life, and disobedience brings bad and death.

Duet 30:15-20,"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

Yehwah has set before us "life and good(Obedience) & death and evil(Disobedience). OSAS clearly disregards disobedience.

Now, I know I said im going to be brief, but I am now finish my brief due diligence from Torah that OSAS does not exist. Now, its time to see what the Prophets have to say.. Preferably, Ezekiel..

Ezekiel really talks about people turning away from the living God, and dying in their sins. Many people say that we cannot give up our salvation. The Prophets prove them wrong.

Ezekiel 3:20,"Again, if a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die. Because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I will require at your hand."

His righteous deeds will not be remembered, and he will die in his sin. What happens when a person dies in their sins? I am sure that most of you on here already knows that. Yeshuah said whoever does not believe in Him, the wrath of Yehwah remains on them. This is a one way ticket to the lake of fire.

Ezekiel 18:24,"But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die."

If a righteous man turns from the living God, and transgress the Torah, then he will not live, and he will forfeit his salvation. What do you think happened to Saul? The holy spirit left him. Most Christians say that cannot happened... but it did!

Let us go to what Yeshuah has said concerning free will and choice to either abide in Him and live, or be cut off and die forever. John 15:6,"If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

Yeshuah also says that we must abide in His teachings to truly be His disciples. John 8:31-32,"So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Hebrews 6:4-6,"For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt."

It is impossible to come back to repentance once a person is gone, and made the decision to never come back. Even a geninuely saved person could walk away, because of free will, and never come back, and thus giving up their salvation.

Let us endure... Matt 24:13,"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Shalom Aleichem

[Rev. Eric Culberson Jr.]

Scott maybe the way I have been attempting to explain it has been the problem but I must say "The issue then is not an issue of "once-saved-always-saved" but an issue of "never-truely-saved", and bearing the evidence and fruit of it by falling away or continuing to live in sin." explains it all!

[Scott R. Newman]

I gotcha brother Eric, one of the reasons I wrote that because I did hear what you were saying. I've been contemplating much about the "once saved always saved" myself doctrine. For the question has always been for me was "how does one really determine whether someone is truly saved"? Since the Bible states that the road to destruction is wide and the road to eternal life is narrow and "very few" find it. Well my question has always been, "who are the few?" So my prayers have always been, "Father God guide my steps to being one of the "few" of those who find it... Also when the Bible states that God will say to those who believe they are believers, "depart from me who are workers of iniquity, I KNEW YOU NOT. He dind't say, I knew you at one time and now I don't know you. He said, I never knew you. Would the Elect of Christ, those who were elected to follow the suffering Christ, would they ever depart from Him and lose their salvation? Really this has helped me and changed the way I even bring people to Christ. He chooses us, we don't choose Him. Its when the Sheep shall hear His voice. I can't knock on your door tonight and tell you I am going to live in your home and bring my whole family to stay with your family, even the dog. You would first have to invite me into your home and through the front door. Any other way gaining entrance to your home and I would be a ....THIEF!

[Rev. Eric Culberson Jr.]

Couldnt have put it any better!

[Eccl. 12:13]

Contrary to what most would like to believe, a name that is IN God's book of life CAN be removed. Let's read it;

Exod.32
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev.3
[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Now if a persons name is in God's book of life when they die, they are truly saved. But what if their name is REMOVED from God's book and they die? Let's read the fate of the sinner and the righteous;


Ezek.18
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Now we know what a sinner is, it is one that breaks the LAWS of God, which, according to God's inspired word, ALL have done. And the scriptures says he that sinneth shall die. The death spoken of here is the second death. Now let's read what happens if the sinner turns from his ways, or STOP breaking God's laws;

[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

So the sinner can change his fate. If he STOPS breaking Gods laws NONE of his transgressions will even be mentioned.

Now let's see if there is a flip side to this. Let's read what happens to the righteous when they stop obeying God’s laws.

[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So ALL of the good things a righteous person does can be wiped away and counted for nothing if he starts sinning. And does he have the chance to redeem himself? Let's read;

[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

So if the ONCE righteous DIES in his sins, he shall die the second death.

Now some may want to still believe that once they are saved they will ALWAYS be saved, but let's read one more verse to see if a NT person thought the same way.

Let's read what Paul had to say about the possibility of him NOT making it into God's kingdom;

1Cor.9
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So even Paul realized that it was possible for him to blow the mission and miss the mark, if he did not keep his body under subjection.


Now let's look at the definitions of 'Predestined' and 'Foreordained';

Predestinate/Foreordined:

transitive verb

Definition:

1. foreordain events: to decide in advance what is going to happen.

So it's actions and events that have already been decided by God.

Now let's read God's inspired word to find the truth;

Rom.8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph.1
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Now did God already know He would conform some to the image of His Son? YES!

Did He know He would also justify and call some to be gloryfied? YES!

Did He know in advance there would be some that would be adopted? YES!

But does God say in advance WHO it will be NO!

God, before the worlds were made, had a plan of salvation for man. He had a plan IF man messed up. He had a plan IF man disobeyed Him. But did He have a list of who would be saved and who would not? NO!!!!

How fair would your God be if it was already decided who would make it into His kingdom and who would not?

Would YOU want to serve a God like that?

I know I wouldn't. My God is a fair judge.

Gen.18
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Ezek.18
[29] Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?


.

[Caral]

Hi Eccl.

Your argument "How fair would your God be if it was already decided who would make it into His kingdom and who would not?" raises a rhetorical question for me.

If God doesn't decide who chosen and who's not, this then indicates that we decide.

Therefore If we decide, this then must mean we have the ability to make a choice by judging God. In our decision making, we must therefore judge God and His word and see whether He is worthy to be chosen, otherwise our decision would not be an informed choice.

Logically a problem arises from this human choosing. IF God permits us to have choice, this then allows scope for the possibly that none would have chosen Him. This is inself makes the sacrifice of our Lord, a rather hefty price to paid for the possibility of none being saved.

[Eccl. 12:13]

But we already KNOW there are some that have chosen God, through faith, and WILL be in His kingdom. Let's read;

Heb.11
[4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain...
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death...
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed;
[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
[36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,

ALL of these saints died with a good report. All of these saints are righteous according to God.

But it was because of their FAITH. Now the question is. "WIll there be more that have FAITH in the word of God, and also die with a 'good report'? I pray I am one of the righteous that die with a good report....how about you?