Crafty Paul? - Black Preaching Network2024-03-28T11:30:29Zhttps://abcpreachers.ning.com/forum/topics/crafty-paul?feed=yes&xn_auth=noFascinating discussion, chapl…tag:abcpreachers.ning.com,2015-09-14:916966:Comment:58869012015-09-14T10:08:22.309ZJoseph Gillhttps://abcpreachers.ning.com/profile/JosephGill
<p>Fascinating discussion, chaplain.</p>
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<p><span>The Greek word translated "guile" in the KJV and "trickery" in the NIV is <em>dolos</em> (</span><span class="Gk" id="yui-gen76">δόλος). From its usage in the New Testament, it does appear to be wholly negative in meaning. The use Paul makes of it In 1 Thessalonians 2:3 is typical: </span></p>
<p><span class="Gk" id="yui-gen76"><span>For our exhortation </span><em id="yui-gen150">was</em><span> not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in…</span></span></p>
<p>Fascinating discussion, chaplain.</p>
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<p><span>The Greek word translated "guile" in the KJV and "trickery" in the NIV is <em>dolos</em> (</span><span class="Gk" id="yui-gen76">δόλος). From its usage in the New Testament, it does appear to be wholly negative in meaning. The use Paul makes of it In 1 Thessalonians 2:3 is typical: </span></p>
<p><span class="Gk" id="yui-gen76"><span>For our exhortation </span><em id="yui-gen150">was</em><span> not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile (<em>dolos</em>).</span></span><span><br/></span></p>
<p>Why Paul would avoid guile when dealing with the Thessalonians and embrace guile when dealing with the Corinthians, I cannot fathom. </p>
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<p>As I read the 2 Corinthians passage over and over, I genuinely wonder whether Paul is intending a confession of trickery. <em>In verse 14</em> he claims not to have been financially burdensome for the church, <em>in verse 15</em> he says he's willing "to be spent" for their sakes, <em>in verse 17</em> he asks rhetorically whether he or his emissaries ever took advantage of the saints. In its entirety, the passage seems designed to help the apostle defend himself. So I have to wonder, is Paul being sarcastic in verse 16? Is he mordantly repeating an accusation made of him that he is "crafty" and uses "guile"? That may be the assumption of the Amplified Bible's paraphrase of the verse:</p>
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<p><span>But though granting that I did not burden you [with my support, some say that] I was crafty [and that] I cheated </span><i>and</i><span> got the better of you with my trickery.</span></p>
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<p></p> Thanks for your reply: Indept…tag:abcpreachers.ning.com,2015-09-11:916966:Comment:58866672015-09-11T13:11:30.416ZChaplain Bernell Wesleyhttps://abcpreachers.ning.com/profile/BernellWesley
<p>Thanks for your reply: Indepth study requires collaboration. The problem I face is most "Christians" don't value critical thinking as a must. When used in 2 Corinthians 12:16 - <br></br><span class="versiontext"><a href="http://biblehub.com/kjv/2_corinthians/12.htm">King James Bible</a></span><br></br>But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. In the NIV it reads - Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I…</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply: Indepth study requires collaboration. The problem I face is most "Christians" don't value critical thinking as a must. When used in 2 Corinthians 12:16 - <br/><span class="versiontext"><a href="http://biblehub.com/kjv/2_corinthians/12.htm">King James Bible</a></span><br/>But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. In the NIV it reads - Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! The KJV uses "guile" and the NIV "trickery" or "deceit" as other translations might render neither of which is positive. The first time "crafty" is used in Genesis 3:1 it is used negatively to describe the character of Satan. Paul uses it to describe himself or his actions. So, the question for me is; if this is a bad translation of "crafty" which can be used in a positive sense, how does one explain the last portion of the sentence that says Paul caught, or took them by "trickery"? Can trickery have a positive aspect as well?</p> Now the serpent was more craf…tag:abcpreachers.ning.com,2015-09-11:916966:Comment:58866642015-09-11T10:59:40.753ZJoseph Gillhttps://abcpreachers.ning.com/profile/JosephGill
<p>Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made…Genesis 3:1</p>
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<p>The Hebrew word translated “crafty” is aruwm (עָרוּם ). The word has positive and negative meanings, as evidenced by its alternate translations in our English bibles. For example:</p>
<p>A prudent (aruwm) man conceals knowledge, But the heart of fools proclaims folly. Proverbs 12:23</p>
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<p>Paul used a Greek word, panourgos πανοῦργος :</p>
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<p>But be that as it…</p>
<p>Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made…Genesis 3:1</p>
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<p>The Hebrew word translated “crafty” is aruwm (עָרוּם ). The word has positive and negative meanings, as evidenced by its alternate translations in our English bibles. For example:</p>
<p>A prudent (aruwm) man conceals knowledge, But the heart of fools proclaims folly. Proverbs 12:23</p>
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<p>Paul used a Greek word, panourgos πανοῦργος :</p>
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<p>But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty (panourgos) fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit. 2 Corinthians 12:16</p>
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<p>That word only appears once in the New Testament, but if you are right that it is comparable to the Hebrew aruwm, then panourgos must have a positive meaning (“prudent”) like it has a negative one (“crafty”). I wonder why the translators chose the negative word rather than the positive one?</p>