Believers you have a responsibility to take note and act upon 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approve, the word of God is pretty clear there, so we cannot blame someone else for not knowing what the word of God says. There are ample indication in the word of God which directs us to know the word, to study the word and to discern who and what gives us food and the food that we are being fed this means there is a lot of responsibility placed on the individual to ensure they study the word.


Take note that there are an awful amount of warnings giving to us about false teachers and prophets so we have no excuse in allowing ourselves to be deceived.


The word of God is truth and the truth will set us free, therefore satan has no conceivable reason to teach the truth because he knows that the truth is powerful so why would he want us to have that power, therefore it behooves us if we want to be free to know the truth. The devil will always teach a lie and that same lie if we believe it, will be our downfall, because when you are deceived into believing a lie you are thus unable to see the truth so you accept and commit to the lie which lead us away from the path of God and in the end that lie will damn us. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12


Anyone who blindly follows another without question and accepts things blindly without testing it, is in serious problem. So don’t think the leaders will be taking the punishment for peoples stupidity, they will be punished for their own unrighteousness as will everyone for there own unrighteousness including going after or believing and committing to a lie.

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Sarah, no one know when Jesus will return so anyone who get themselves deceived into thinking someone can either summon Christ to return or make his return out of the will of God clearly have not studied the word of God .  

I personally believe apostasy happen because people do have spend enough time in the word or in prayer. If they spend time in the word and with the Word they would have the strength to withstand the things that comes their way..

Now the once saved always save doctrine I believe we have dealt with that issue or that issue is being dealt with under another discussion, so really it has not got a bearing on this discussion if we keep the discussion in proper order

Well I understand that you believe that the once saved always saved issue is dealt with in another thread, but it is one of the problems that you raised about false teachers and why they exist. In the OT for example if you were a false prophet you would get stoned to death, so it was sort of a good idea to make sure you were actually a prophet before saying much? Today it is a really common belief that well, once saved always saved and God will forgive everything helps or allows or better enables false teacher, preachers, prophets and apostles, come to think of it teachers as well. 

I also understand what your saying about apostasy and about studying the Bible is a good thing, "if" one has the discernment of the Holy Spirit to guide and direct, but right now in one of the threads I am on we have people totally convinced that the end of the world will happen in December, so the lead by fear, telling people to get saved because the end will happen in December and fear is not of God but the devil, but these people, perhaps with good intentions do well and people give them donations, which further encourage them to go further in false doctrines. 

Then again I battle with Messianic Jews all the time that want to drag people back into the law and a lot of other things? 

The reason I even get into all of this is people follow people that sound good and they follow people blindly. I remember Richard De Haan published a book, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth" telling people one should not listen to any voices, that God only talks the Bible now and that there were not apostles as that was a special dispensation, which is or was much of the Baptist theology to a great extent. 

People are impressed with people that have money as they are told they are blessed of God. The big question in my little mind and heart is what to do about it all as it affects everything including ending starvation, where people think it is God's will that people starve to death? I mean sometimes it is mind boggling the things people come up with and these are people that study the Bible, backwards and forwards fully believing they know God and His will. 

All I am saying is that there is far more that is needed than just studying the Bible as it can be interpreted many different ways, which it is and why there are some 20,000 plus sects of Christianity and now that Halloween is upon us, more than I care to think actually celebrate Halloween of all things? 

The hard part is the overcoming and we can preach and teach and do all those great things, but if there is not a lot of love to back up the teaching and preaching it does little if any good? Without real love behind it, it is just another belief that people are faced with. I honestly have met a lot of people, which I have to admit not very mature, but they can really preach and teach up a storm, but missing it about love and caring about people? They are all happy and proud they are so blessed with all the knowledge and then I come back to the parts about love and it gets really quiet all of sudden. 

The only way I know how to get around the winds of doctrine as scripture tells us is through the five fold gift ministry, then again if it is really from God. It is easy to say in general that the devil deceives people, but it takes self examination to find out where the devil has deceived people if people are doing real self examination? 

I have said this before that each false thing we allow, becomes like a filter over our eyes. Practices such as Christmas or Easter are just a couple of those filters, but there are more and the more filters over the eyes the darker it becomes to the point where one can see little or no light, but going to church figuring out somehow they are ok and it is everyone else that is way out there? 

Amen my sister, God's word is a lamp unto our feet. (Youve certainly got a discussion going here. The Lord bless you and have a great weekend.

You know why so many if your percentage is correct Sarah fall away; it is because of lack of knowledge in the word of God.  You see there is nothing more important than the word of God, which is both the written and living word because they are one.  We only have to look at Genesis Chapter 1 and John Chapter 1 to know how important the word is and that the word spoken which is now written and the living word is one and the same.  

You see the word of God is and ought to be the very foundation of all believers’ life if we study the word then we would not choose to do the things outside of the word as failure comes when we act outside of the word of God.  

Just think God Himself does not do anything outside of His word and that is the first thing we need to understand, the very world was created through the word of God and unless we take up the written word from off the book and place it on our hearts we are doomed to failure because perfection comes from the word of God.  Check it out God spoke His word and it was done, God sent forth is word and it was done, never was anything done then the word so the word is the foundation of the believers life even the church is established upon the word of God just clock Jesus statement that was spoken ‘upon this rock I built my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail’.  The word of God decree and declare always but we have the power which has being given onto us but we want to push it into last place and place other things such as the five fold ministry which is dependent on the word ahead.  No the five fold is not and can never be the foundation it can only build on the foundation, which is the word of God.

Heaven and earth can pass away but not a jot of Gods word shall pass because everything hinge on the word of God and we try to separate the living and written word as much as we want but no it cannot be separated. You see Sarah I can only truly know you by your word your word is your authority on which you stand and thus God in the beginning spoke his word in order to bring the world into being and it is that very word that became flesh. The fact that the word was given by inspiration to be written to aid us in our learning does not make it any less God's word. 
Through the word of God we can have a relationship with God because we must first know Him by his word because it is not possible to get to God without going through his word and when we study the word of God we build a relation with the word which links us to God. And I personally believe the number one failure of believers is lack of relationship with God, which comes from not knowing or building a relationship with His Word.

I guarantee which ever country you go to the answer is still the same a lack of attendance at Bible study and any survey will show most people do not open their Bible outside of the worship day and that is the cause of people falling down when they come in just as in the garden lack of knowledge and confidence in God’s word.  If they knew the word of God no hireling (false teacher) could fool then, no one would fall due to false teaching if they got to know the word of God. You see believing the five-fold ministry is the foundation of the church is the first stage to failure, being that the word of God is the foundation and is the way to success. Without the word of God we can have no meaningful relationship with God because the only way to access God is through His word. With His word we can have everything but first we have to get to know it we have to build a relationship through the word, the fact that it is written to help us learn better is neither here or there it is still God's word. 

I know that when I am reading the word of God He speaks to me through His word, He gives me more answers when I am in His word than at any other time, His word is literally every thing it is our source, our food, our substances and it is definitely life and as I read it comes alive so I know.

The five fold ministry may be important but it is way below the word of God.

Well if the Word of God is Jesus that is great, but even scripture says the Word of God is and was Jesus, not the Bible. The other thing is the five fold gift ministry as it is His ministry to man and whatever God has ordained let not man put asunder. 

Each of us gets to choose what we believe, that is what free will is all about, but if you believe what that the Bible is true and all part of the reason for the five fold gift ministry is so that one can grow to maturity not being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and that we may grow in Christ being neatly fit together. You see the point is there is God's way of doing things and what seems right to man. To honor God's way is to honor God, to do anything else does not honor God? That is either true or false? 

To do God's way is to be in His word, which is the foundation of everything. Let us not forget God is the one that first ordain His words be written down for our learning so who are we to say His written word is meaningless.  You see as you say to honour God is to honour His way and He thought that it was for our benefit that His word be written down that His why He ordain it to be so why are we to discard His written word, when did He ordain that to be so.  

The free will we have is to choose Christ and His way or not; we don’t get to dangle in and out so it is not what we want. The word of God whether spoken, written or living are one so there should be no discard. In the Creation of the world God spoke His word and the world was created by the words 'let us" and in John 1:1 we are told that the word by which God spoke and created the World came to live among us therefore there is no doubt the spoken and living word is one. We also know that God spoke His word to command His people and ask for this to be written therefore how on earth can you not see that the spoken, written and living is one. And why can you not see that the word is the most important aspect of a true believers life because there is no other way to build a relationship with God but through His word.

Sarah, can you truly not see it, I am looking at it and it is so clear to me, Sarah it was not the five-fold ministry that created the fall, it was lack of knowledge or understanding of God's word. If Eve had a clear understanding and knowledge of God's word satan would not have being able to beguile her but because she was uncertain she began to doubt the word.

Come with me Sarah in the desert when the Israelite cried to God did he sent the five-fold ministry to them or did he sent forth His word then healed them. When Jesus was in the desert, did satan not try to beguile Christ with the word in the same way He did with Eve. And how did Jesus defeated satan wasn’t it by speaking the words 'It is Written” Sarah what was written was it not the word of God, Christ did not use the five fold ministry to defeat satan in the desert, He was alone what He had was the written word stamped upon his heart. 

You cannot deny that there is nothing more important than the word of God whether, written, spoken or living, Sarah they are one and the same, there is no distinction. The written, spoken and living proceeded from the mouth of God and is the foundation upon which everything exist so nothing is more important than knowing His word because through the knowledge of His word comes everything we need to make our walk perfect.


If you have a real apostle, you are hearing from God. It is the living word versus the written word. Yes I have never said one does not need the written word, but one does need the living word as well as the written word, but not only that even more important is to know the voice of the shepherd. 

When Jesus was on earth and for sure when Eve was alive the five fold gift ministry was not even in existence, so it was not really a fair analogy? Plus you assume I have not been in the desert, which is also not accurate, but one thing that concerns me is that you reject what I write and would reject what I would speak, but the big part of the five fold gift ministry is the living word as the living word dwells in us. 

Christ is made of two very important parts; first is the head which is Jesus who no doubt is the gate by which all must enter and secondly is the body of Christ which cannot be separated from the head, but to reject what the five fold gift ministry says and those in the body speak is to reject Christ. The message from the living word is that God has a plan for each and every person, which includes one's purpose and calling, which starts with meeting Jesus and spending time with Him and the gets into ones purpose and calling and  either one knows their purpose or calling or does not know their purpose and calling or they do not want to know or don't care, as there are four categories. Rebellion is not wanting to know and not wanting to know and not wanting to walk in ones purpose and calling. 

You say that the Bible is crucial and I would assume that what is in the Bible would also be of great importance? If that is true, the five fold gift ministry is in the Bible, so what you are teaching goes against the Bible that you say is important. I mean if this there it is important. The five fold gift ministry did not even start until the new covenant started? So saying the Christ did not use the five fold gift ministry is just not true as Christ is made of two parts, but those not in the five fold gift ministry more times than not only see Christ as Jesus and when in the five fold gift ministry, they see Christ as head and body. 

The end result is to be a living epistle and how one becomes a living epistle is to here from God as Jesus had no will except the Father that sent Him and if we are like Him, then we have no will except the Father that sends us as well, but to be a living epistle is to speak or write the very words they get from the Father. The foundation you speak of is not the Word being the Bible, but our Father as He is the creator of the Word. 

I have never said the Bible was not important or that one should do without the Bible, but if one is going to be in line with the Word, which you state is the Bible, then one also must be in line with His ministry, which is the five fold gift ministry and simply put, God ordained the five fold gift ministry and what you are suggesting is that people should reject His ministry? Honestly that is what you are suggesting. 

By they way it was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that Eve or Adam was not to eat of. Eating of the tree of knowledge allows one to pick and choose what one believes.We are to accept the whole and not just the parts that we want to accept, but part of that whole is the five fold gift ministry and rejecting even part of it, is to reject the whole as none of us have a right to reject any part of it and one of the things the five fold gift ministry does is it bring balance, which the body of Christ badly needs. 

What is key is to be led by the Spirit of God, but it was the Spirit the created the five fold gift ministry so we would know the truth as it was created so one can come to maturity "being no longer tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine." What you can accomplish by not supporting the five fold gift ministry is division as His ministry is a part of the five fold gift ministry. Now we can come up with doctrines such as the five fold gift ministry is no longer needed and many subscribe to that doctrine, creating further division, but one of the major purposes of the five fold gift ministry is so we can be neatly fit together without division. I mean if you believe the Bible then why not accept what is in the Bible? I mean it really does not make sense to say one believes in the Bible and then reject parts of it, which is a very large part of the New Covenant started in Acts chapter 2.  

No Sarah read through all I have said I have not rejected the five fold ministry just it's importance over the word of God because there should be no attempt to separate the spoken, written or living word one from another because they are all of and from God.

So no I have not rejected the five fold or leadership we need leaders and God recognises this that is why He sent Moses to lead His people but Moses could not do so with out the word of God and all of God's prophet was only able to function through the word of God.  

Its your priority or placing that I reject because foremost the worn of God is important therefore the studying of His word must be upmost in all believers. It is only through us knowing the word that we as believers will be able to identify false teachings.

I still am not understanding what your saying about Moses as he received the living Word of God and not the written word of God? I don't understand where you are getting this? Most of the Old Testament prophets also had the living word of God which is how they wrote what they did? 

Okay Sarah I don't know why when I press to rely to you it wont make me do it under your question but this is in response what you state you dont understand still am not understanding what your saying about Moses as he received the living Word of God and not the written word of God? 'I don't understand where you are getting this? Most of the Old Testament prophets also had the living word of God which is how they wrote what they did?'

Look in Exodus 34:27 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words : for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

Yes that is the living word to Moses and everyone who reads it. It is the same thing today, many including myself get the living word and write what we get, which is no more or less important that scripture as it is also the word of God. The point being is it is the same Spirit.

The comment was " God's word is a lamp unto our feet." All words from God, living or in the Bible as it is the same Spirit. All I am saying is you cannot put one as more important as the other as they are from the same Spirit. The word from the five fold gift ministry or scripture comes from the same Spirit and all equally important? Yes, No?

Thank you Paul Thomas, please note I did not see your Reply by Paul Thomas on October 20, 2012 at 3:10pm until just now and I am having the same problem in that the rely button does not appear to work in order for me to respond under what you wrote. Anyway I am glad you like the discussion and you are perfectly correct the word of God is a lamp upon our feet, it is the very direction that as a believer we need. Please join us and give your opinion because these note these discussions that I do is for us to search and know the best way. Because there are ways that are not perfect, ways that will take us off track, ways that will attempt to trip us but if we get to grips with the word of God, if we become interwine with his word and let it speak to our hearts, soul and mind then it is very hard for anything to unsettle us.God word is powerful to those who are in Christ. Through his written word we can find His spoken word because the written word of God comes alive in the hearts of the believer, the problem is we sometimes place a barrier on our hearts so we end up seeing the word as satan sees it but that is not the intention of God in his words are mysteries that only belong to the children of God that is why a unbeliever do not see the same things in the word that a believer see.


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