I now understand more and more about this so-call world of "Hip-Hop". I understand now why "Hip-Hop"has really no place in our churches and yet it's slowly creeping in our church doors. After hearing all of this, I will stand behind fellow clergy members by NOT allowing "Hip-Hop" into our churches.

Pastors,Ministers and Church Leaders, would you allow "Hip-Hop" in your churches? Is this a way in keeping our youth in church? I am interested in all feedback concerning this issue.

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Here are the cliff notes:

1. To say that a culture and everything about it is unredemptive in the face of the redemptive work of Christ (Christus Victor) is not only foolish and silly it smacks in the face of the Bible that we all stand on.

2. You've said that pastors are only using hip hop to grow their churches and make money. You are not omniscient you are not privy to the actual intent of the heart, you may suspect, but sorry but the gift of infallibility is not yours

3. How God deals with me and the freedom and convictions He has given me are different from yours as a result it is not my place or yours to attempt to consign you to a specific spot or place in God, nor is it your place to try to do the same to me.

4. By the by I re-read your original comments, in answer to your statement: "Pragmatism is not God's way, in other words to do something to bring about a certain result is not what are instructed to do" what do you say to Paul when he wrote
in 1 Corinthians 9:22 "19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you".

Jesus did not stand against those who were outside the church, He stood with them.
Rev Miller,
I have made it abundantly clear that neither money nor numbers have any bearing on my ministry. What you are doing is issuing a blanket indictment about your co-laborers in the Gospel. I understand you may not like the structure of the lyrics and you may find the beat offensive. But, please, in the name of Jesus, stop the generalities. If you choose not to allow hip-hop in your church, well, that's your choice. I don't like country-western music but, if it lifts up the name of Jesus, who am I to judge or knock it. Furthermore, there are many Gospel artists whose rap or hip-hop styles are serving as a beacon to lead young people to the preaching of the Gospel.
Brother Day,

I am sorry but money IS the motivating factor here as well as numbers. I believe that those who advocate the so-called Holy Hip-hop music actually mean well, but they also want to hold on to a little bit of the world. I mentioned that it was born of a culture, but I was wrong it is born of a subculture. The church was not called to breed Gospel gangsta's, Holy Hip-hoppers; and Preaching pimps. The church is the ekklesia, which means "called out from darkness" and there is a certain darkness attributed to the so-call Holy Hip-hop movement which has infiltrated the church.
Ok Rev Miller, here is the question, what is the darkness of the holy hip hop movement. Before you answer here are the guidelines for your answer,
1. you cannot use circular reasoning,

2. You have to deal with the holy hip hop movement, you cannot interject anything from the secular hip hop, I concede that secular hip hop is fraught with darkness.

3. the word is ecclesia and it does not mean "called out of darkness" it means church building, Or even the gathering place of the Athenians, the word you were looking for was agiazo: which means "to hallow", that is, to remove something (in this case, us) from the realm of the secular and transfer it into the realm of the divine
No, I majored in Greek, it is the ekklesia and does mean called out from darkness. And I don't think I am obligated to answer anything according a particular guideline established by you.
Perhaps you should consider retaking your classes in classical greek because the definition is as follows. You are not but I was giving you an opportunity to defend your stance, I have defended my stance, and you even help me out in its defense. In a debate one is often called upon to defend his or her stance. Thing is in refusing you prove my point that you cannot on your own defend your stance because you are not cogent on your own of your stance. You cannot define the "darkness" in the holy hip hop movement without injecting something of the secular. When asked to do this you cannot, because outside of what you have been told, you have nothing of substance to give.... Other than innuendo, semi truths, and gossip.

ec·cle·sia (e klē′zē ə, -klā′-; i-)

noun pl. ecclesiae -·siae′ (-ē′)

1. in ancient Greek states, a political assembly of citizens
2. Eccles.
1. the members of a church
2. a church building

Etymology: L, assembly, in LL(Ec), assembly of Christians < Gr ekklēsia, assembly (in N.T., the church as a body of Christians) < ekklētos, summoned < ekkalein, to summon < ek-, out (see ex-) + kalein, to call (see clamor)
I had to make sure, but the word you're looking for is oikos that means house or a building and it is where we get the word ecology.
nope sorry asked and answered proceed forward please...
In fact the Music is far more dangerouse than the lyrics...Over time words can be forgotten, Music on the other hand is a spirit, the spirit never dies...case in point; in the Church I attended before I became a Pastor played song by Stevy Wonder (even though the words were changed) everyone rememberd the song; every one began to dance (to the music) no one really paid attention to the fact that the words were changd they simply remembered that they liked that song...this particular song is nearly 30 years old...30 years have gone by and the Music alone is as if it was yesterday...that is the nature of Music thats why itscalled Music from the greek meaning Muse meaning (Inspiration) from that word we get spirit -

Dude EITHER A SPIRIT IS HOLY OR ITS NOT - ou can clean up a demonic spirit! Stop trying ...Talk to the God of all creation and let the King of Kigs and Lord of Lords give you a Tune so asom that the angels in heaven will come down and dance (to the Glory of God)

The sad thing is Brother, that you refuse to admit what the world already knows...there is BIG BIG Money in remixing! That Money is at the root of this "Holy Hip Hop movement! It has nothing to do with anything but selling records and if you can broaden your market base by remixing old song putting a hint (and I mean a hint) of Gospel in there WOW you got a hit...the Church accepts it, the world likes it, its main stream - you can play it in the club - Bro they played "Stomp" in the Club... I am not concerned about Dorcey...if 10 people jumped off the ledge along time ago that is no incentive for me or you to do the same thing.

The truth is that we as representatives of the Church are required by God to hold the mantra of Holiness regardless of who has dropped it for a dollar or two... We are required to be Holy...For He is Holy; we are requird to reverence his Sanctuary...playing songs by Luther, snoop, pointer sisters, or any of these types as worship to God is repgnant to Doctrine; Repugnant to Scriture and Repugnant to the nature and the Spirit of Holiness. You being a man of God legitimizing this foolishness is dangerouse to the edification of the Church!

Pastor Hodge
In fact the Music is far more dangerouse than the lyrics...Over time words can be forgotten, Music on the other hand is a spirit, the spirit never dies...case in point; in the Church I attended before I became a Pastor played song by Stevy Wonder (even though the words were changed) everyone rememberd the song; every one began to dance (to the music) no one really paid attention to the fact that the words were changd they simply remembered that they liked that song...this particular song is nearly 30 years old...30 years have gone by and the Music alone is as if it was yesterday...that is the nature of Music thats why itscalled Music from the greek meaning Muse meaning (Inspiration) from that word we get spirit -

Wow your greek is as weak as your argument, if I were weak on my greek I would believe you, unfortunately for you, my father made sure that greek and hebrew were languages that I knew, (one of the many advantages of being the son of a local pastor here in Chicago) explain how the word pnuema which is greek for breath and spirit, came out out of the word mousa which is the greek word for think or thinking, which while it is two separate things possibly could be related but not in this case. You are akin to many here, you apparently have heard something but have done nothing to research it for yourself. At best you are uninformed, at worst you are lazy. Not a good look for a man of God….

Dude EITHER A SPIRIT IS HOLY OR ITS NOT - ou can clean up a demonic spirit! Stop trying ...Talk to the God of all creation and let the King of Kigs and Lord of Lords give you a Tune so asom that the angels in heaven will come down and dance (to the Glory of God)

Ok here spell check is a must I had a hard time figuring out what you were saying. Once again yor point here is moot seeing as you were wrong in your initial pronouncement.

The sad thing is Brother, that you refuse to admit what the world already knows...there is BIG BIG Money in remixing! That Money is at the root of this "Holy Hip Hop movement! It has nothing to do with anything but selling records and if you can broaden your market base by remixing old song putting a hint (and I mean a hint) of Gospel in there WOW you got a hit...the Church accepts it, the world likes it, its main stream - you can play it in the club - Bro they played "Stomp" in the Club... I am not concerned about Dorcey...if 10 people jumped off the ledge along time ago that is no incentive for me or you to do the same thing.

Once again money has nothing to do with the argument, I did not bring it up you did. I have conceded in another thread that while there is money to be made, You sir are not qualified to make a judgement as you are not infallible, you are ignorant of the intents of the heart as you are not the Holy Ghost and thereby not omniscient. By the way the man’s name is DORSEY, not Dorcy, if you are going to invoke the man’s name, have respect enough to spell it right. Dorsey however is relevant to the conversation as he is, and how he was treated by some in the church, mirrors the treatment being shown here.

The truth is that we as representatives of the Church are required by God to hold the mantra of Holiness regardless of who has dropped it for a dollar or two... We are required to be Holy...For He is Holy; we are requird to reverence his Sanctuary...playing songs by Luther, snoop, pointer sisters, or any of these types as worship to God is repgnant to Doctrine; Repugnant to Scriture and Repugnant to the nature and the Spirit of Holiness. You being a man of God legitimizing this foolishness is dangerouse to the edification of the Church!

Ok first of all I am going to deal with this point for point. Its easy for me and necessary for you..
1. Holiness is not a mantra.. Here is the definition of mantra: a commonly repeated word or phrase
Since when is holiness something that you repeat verbally?
2. No one not me or anyone else on the other side of the debate has advocated playing songs by Luther, Snoop, The Pointer Sisters. I have said that setting scripture to music regardless of the type does not hinder the message regardless of your nonsensical pronouncement that Scripture loses its power when done so.
3. Once again spell check before sending, once again there are no prerequisites to what Paul said in Phillipians If it brings about thoughts that are pure, worthy of good report, true, honest, just, lovely, we are told to think on these things, and if by music it can be accomplished it matters not. And your argument on its face is both foolish and really shows that you have not done a lot of studying on your own to learn for yourself. I actually feel more sorry for you, than I do anything else but I really weep for your people because as a pastor you should be careful about things that you let across your pulpit, and even more, you should at least know what you are talking about. From what I read here, you don’t.
Brother Anthony,
This was a wonderful point-by-point explication of your point and dissection of the "traditional" and "religious" arguments. Truly, you rightly divide the Word of Truth!
Pastor Hodge, Rev. Miller, Prophetess Satin, Sister Angie, and Sister Newview,
This argument that relegates hip-hop to the unholy is shaky at best, as it gives the devil more credit than is due him. You see, every note, every rest, every scale, every clef, every bar, every measure was created by God. All music was created by Him for His glory. The devil is impotent -- he is sterile. He cannot create -- or re-create, as in the case of the new birth. Satan can only pervert and distort what God has already created. Now, that being said, the music CAN be unholy. However, the resurrection power of the Living God can SURELY change the nature of a piece of a music if He can save a sinful man.

What made record labels such as Motown successful is they took the harmonies common to the church and applied them to secular music. This resulted in skyrocketing sales of worldly music. Likewise, as Brother Anthony so eloquently put it, musicians such as Isaac Watts and Thomas Dorsey took worldly music and wrote godly lyrics to it. The gifts of these two artists brought people to church in record numbers (witness Albertina Walker and Mahalia Jackson). What, I beseech you, is the difference between these examples and hip-hop. In the case of Watts and Dorsey, enlightened Church leaders saw this as a move of God and embraced it. And the church is better for it.

Again, no one is suggesting we take a glib attitude toward God (e.g., profaning the sanctuary). Those of us who have argued in favor of hip-hop in the church have, in no way, suggested compromise on fundamental principles, such as holiness. I have seen no evidence of pragmatism as has been incorrectly proffered by some. I Love the Lord Jesus with all my heart, mind, and soul and feel confident saying the same for my brothers and sisters on this side of the debate. I am confident none of us would ever do anything to offend the Lord or do anything to cause the weaker brother to stumble.

I do, however, hold to the scripture that clearly states it is the tradition of men that makes of none effect the Word of God. These arcane traditions will prohibit music that will help usher young people into the kingdom will also prevent anointed women of God access to preach the Gospel. These traditions, coupled with their companion, the "religious" spirit, will drive people away from church, away from Christ, and into perdition. And the devil's plan to destroy many will be secure because of the prejudice of a few. I, for one, do not want such blood on my hands.

So, it seems we have reached an impasse. You all who may have completely closed your minds to a genuine move of God, well, God bless you! It is my earnest prayer that you do not shut up the Kingdom against any who desire to gain entry.

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