This is a widely debated topic now , not just for the World but for Chuch and Christians.

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It doesn't matter! God has spoken! Why is that hard to hear and understand? God made His intentions known when He created "MALE & FEMALE, and told "THEM" to be "Fruitful and Multiply". Let's stop with the dumb stuff. Two women in love are just as perverted, wicked, and deviant as two men are, pure and simple. Human beings can do what they want, but they will NEVER be able to convince the One who created them in the first place that their way is better than  His Way! There are STILL consequences to the lifestyle of homosexuals and other sexually immoral people (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Romans 1:24-28).

So how do you feel about fornication, adultery, theft, lying and the like are as equally adament about those sins as well or are like some here who are more pharasitical in thier approach?

 

This so needs to stop. Raging on about one sin while ignoring others. There are pastors who divorce, who cheat, who murder with thier lips and the like, and the church sits back and says nothing. The sad part is that we as the church complain when the world rightly mocks us because we are not acting like who we are supposed to be. We were all sinners, the Bible says ALL have sinned, it does not make a difference if its homosexuality or adultery, its all the same.. The sad truth is that people harp on homosexuals to take attention of sin they either wink at or are committing themselves. Paul said this that we are to each consider ourselves the chiefest of sinners, If we do that, there is no way we can be so unloving, so hateful, so ridiculous with regard to anyone's sin. I know the mess that I was in, I know it, I also know that because of what Christ did for me, I have no right, NONE to speak about someone else's sin without first taking a long good hard look at the mess I was pulled from. If I want someone else to get free, I am not going to berate them, I am not going to call them negative things, I am not going to do anything that does not look like what the Lord did to and for me. Love works no ill towards its neighbor. I had a friend in Seattle who is gay, I walked the walk in front of him, loved him, told him that it was not my job to judge him because of what he was into. He came to my home and was welcome, celebrated the fourth of July and as a result the brother went from being an athiest to being an agnostic, progress. As Paul said some plant the seed, others water, but it is God who gives the increase. I pray for his salvation, but I am keenly that it is his choice. Do I love him any differently NO, do I treat him any differently Of COURSE NOT. I am amazed as preachers who seemingly have no compassion and the rhetoric they preach is so hateful.

Dear Jonathan:

 

It is good to see your passion about this subject. Much of what you have written comes from the same rhetoric of the homosexual community. The very words you used are seen in many gay writings. I'm not sure if you're gay, but your writings are very "gayish". Now, to address what you were trying to convey.

 

Every sin that you mentioned is an obvious offense to the holiness and moral standard of Almighty God. There is no debate about that point. What is open to debate is the question of same sex marriage, which this thread very pointedly asked: "What do you think of same sex marriage?" Why is is it such a question?

 

It is a question of significance because what is going on in America and the culture at large is the battle for the family! And rather than be the "pillar and foundation of the truth", many churches/Christians are caving in to the political correctness of the day and are cowering behind fear. Sadly, many so-called churches have abdicated their role in the world and they look like a social club, not a congregation.

 

Like many of you, I know people personally that live the gay lifestyle; many of whom, are decent, law-abiding citizens, and even they know that they are not suppose to be trying to get "married". The more relevant question is what are we going to do about this issue that is tearing our Country apart?

 

The Scripture says, "Righteousness exalts a Nation, but Sin is a Reproach to Any People". So it matters how we address the perversion of homosexuality and same sex marriage. The Christian church is mandated to address these issues as it is our Christianity that informs our politics.

 

America, contrary to what you've said out of pure ignorance, and what the left wingers want the young people of this generation to believe, was indeed founded upon a Christian/Biblical foundation! Many of the Founding Fathers of our Nation was theologians, pastors, ministers, and Bible teachers. America has been blessed and favored because unlike any other Country in the world, we have embraced and attempted to honor the things and ways of God! That is why we have the motto: "One Nation Under God", and "In God We Trust" on our currency. Indeed, America is a "God-fearing" Country historically speaking.

 

Now in the age of Obama and this 21st Century Democratic Party, we're being told that everything that our Country have stood for was wrong. In my lifetime, I have never witnessed a stupid President that would go to another Country and apologize to them though their evil regime attacked our Country and killed our Citizens.

 

This is the same guy that doesn't want an annual National Prayer Day. The same guy that is a liar and I believe a closet gay man. The same guy that is weak and have no back bone. I could go on and on, but my point is our Country is in deep spiritual trouble, and the devil is using the gay agenda to cause a great spiritual, cultural, political, moral, and ethical divide.

 

As for my responsibilities towards others, I am very much aware and in tune, and it is for that reason that I can "speak the truth in love". Today's society would hate Jesus if He was still here in person. The gay community in particular would call Him, "bigot", "hater", and "intolerant" as is the gay community's rhetoric for people that go against their deviant and nasty lifestyle!

 

Theologically speaking, while the sins you mentioned are an offense against a holy God, homosexuality is the ONLY one of the listed that God Himself calls an "Abomination!" Why is that? Because that particular sin is especially egregious against the "image and likeness" of Almighty God. I do not hate any gay person. What I detest is their insistence of legitimizing their behavior and trying to make it a normal phenomenon when in reality it is unnatural, shameful, degrading, an error, against nature, vile affection, of which adultery and other sexual sins are never called by those descriptions! That clearly means that homosexuality is especially egregious against God.

 

So, in closing, I appreciate your passion and support of homosexuals. I love them as people too! And I love them enough to share the truth with them when they ask me, and I usually have a face-to-face with a gay person at least once a month and the love of Christ is always my priority with them and many of them have come to faith in Christ due to the ministry that we have provided.

It is good to see your passion about this subject. Much of what you have written comes from the same rhetoric of the homosexual community. The very words you used are seen in many gay writings. I'm not sure if you're gay, but your writings are very "gayish". Now, to address what you were trying to convey.

Wow I never knew that writing could be referred to as “gayish” As far as what I have been saying it comes from scripture, so in a sense you are calling the scripture “gay”. As far as my orientation goes I have a wife to whom I am married to, she loves me I love her. Wow “gayish” it sounds quite childish of you to say such a thing.  But hey I am not going to speak to the immaturity of your speech, I can only point out that it is very immature. I have an eight year old niece and even she would recognize how childish this part of your response is.

 

Every sin that you mentioned is an obvious offense to the holiness and moral standard of Almighty God. There is no debate about that point. What is open to debate is the question of same sex marriage, which this thread very pointedly asked: "What do you think of same sex marriage?" Why is is it such a question?

I answered that question in the statement that I made when I first responded, did you not read what I wrote?

 

It is a question of significance because what is going on in America and the culture at large is the battle for the family! And rather than be the "pillar and foundation of the truth", many churches/Christians are caving in to the political correctness of the day and are cowering behind fear. Sadly, many so-called churches have abdicated their role in the world and they look like a social club, not a congregation.

Sadly even more have opted to try to breach the wall of disestablishment in order to foist their belief upon a nation. Much like the Muslims did in Africa millennia ago. Political correctness? One can speak the truth with lack of compassion and it not be received, is not the point of the matter to speak the truth in love so that all may receive or are you so adamemt that you believe you can do one without the other and still reach people?

 

 

Like many of you, I know people personally that live the gay lifestyle; many of whom, are decent, law-abiding citizens, and even they know that they are not suppose to be trying to get "married". The more relevant question is what are we going to do about this issue that is tearing our Country apart?

But here Is the thing have you asked them why there are those in their community that want the recognition of marriage, the friend that I mentioned in one posting does not want the marriage portion either, but at least I took the time to try to understand what it is that they are after. As opposed to simply screaming about how “gayish” this or that sounds..GROW UP ALREADY!

 

The Scripture says, "Righteousness exalts a Nation, but Sin is a Reproach to Any People". So it matters how we address the perversion of homosexuality and same sex marriage. The Christian church is mandated to address these issues as it is our Christianity that informs our politics.

Ah but the church also has a mandate to not be so driven in the political arena that she runs afoul of patriotic idolatry. We are to kneel at only one alter, and it is not the alter of politics. There is a separation of church and state for a reason. And the reason the clergy at the time wanted it set apart was that so there would be no confusion as to whom the church served. Politics is a dirty business, it is not the place for those who name the name of Christ. If our example is to be Christ tell me why is it that every time someone attempted to involve Him in politics He pretty much ran, yet we who are his followers wish to foist our beliefs, our morals, our standards on everyone else even though many clergy in the eighteenth century recognized that choosing Christ was a personal choice that should not be interfered with by the state. When you say that the church is mandated to address issues, you are absolutely correct however when the church mixes with politics the result is often disastrous. Prime example, Constantine becomes a Christian, (even though he never stopped his worship of the Greek Pantheon) and Christianity becomes the official religion of Rome, what happens next is astounding. Christians begin murdering people of other religions, I dare say the Apostles would have wept at that.

 

America, contrary to what you've said out of pure ignorance, and what the left wingers want the young people of this generation to believe, was indeed founded upon a Christian/Biblical foundation! Many of the Founding Fathers of our Nation was theologians, pastors, ministers, and Bible teachers. America has been blessed and favored because unlike any other Country in the world, we have embraced and attempted to honor the things and ways of God! That is why we have the motto: "One Nation Under God", and "In God We Trust" on our currency. Indeed, America is a "God-fearing" Country historically speaking.

Uh first you call me gayish, now you call me ignorant…. I will deal with that later Wayne suffice it to say it would appear your grasp of US history is as broad as a french fry…. You are correct there were many clergy who were members of the framers, but also keep in mind, they were the ones who were pulling for disestablishment… The major founders, were deists namely George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe. Men such as  Roger Williams who influenced men like Isaac Backus, someone that you should look up who influenced others in the (for some light reading on your part: http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_178...

http://www.nyym.org/flushing/remons.html  )

Constitutional Convention. He was one of the delegation from his state who ratified the document. It appears my friend your grasp of history is lacking. And also keep in mind the mottos you speak of have been on money only for the past fifty to sixty years.  Tell me what does God fearing  mean?  If it means the same to you as it does to me, tell me Wayne, when was the US God fearing, was it when the native Americans were labeled savages and subsequently murdered, or perhaps it was when blacks were forced to immigrate in chains, hmmm maybe it was when the native Americans were forced marched west of the Mississippi even after having fought and bled with Jackson during the battle of New Orleans.  Or perhaps it was when it took the slaughter of men in a horrific civil war? Oh wait it had to be when the US government swindled the native Americans out of their land in the west? Could it be when the Americans whose only crime was being born of Japanese descent were interred in WWII? No? I take it you get my point I could go on ad nauseum and destroy your little myth if a Christian nation but suffice it to say that the Kingdom of God does not look like any nation on earth, there is no nation that could ever be Christian….Sanctimony does not cut it.

 

Now in the age of Obama and this 21st Century Democratic Party, we're being told that everything that our Country have stood for was wrong. In my lifetime, I have never witnessed a stupid President that would go to another Country and apologize to them though their evil regime attacked our Country and killed our Citizens.

LOL seriously Wayne? We invaded illegally a sovereign nation who gave us no cause. I am not going to get into that with you but I am willing to guess you reside in Texas….

 

This is the same guy that doesn't want an annual National Prayer Day. The same guy that is a liar and I believe a closet gay man. The same guy that is weak and have no back bone. I could go on and on, but my point is our Country is in deep spiritual trouble, and the devil is using the gay agenda to cause a great spiritual, cultural, political, moral, and ethical divide.

Wow you apparently love repeating lies don’t you. Obama never said he did not want an annual day of prayer, and since when is a national day of prayer that important

(http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/prayerday.asp)

Perhaps you would do well to actually sit and read something rather than regurgitate what you hear? Don’t you think that Jesus meant what He said when he made the statement that we should not pray as to be seen of men? Or is your sanctimony so deep that you cannot see beyond it. And to call him a closeted gay man only serves to reinforce my theory of your lack of maturity but at least you are exposing yourself for all to see…

 

As for my responsibilities towards others, I am very much aware and in tune, and it is for that reason that I can "speak the truth in love". Today's society would hate Jesus if He was still here in person. The gay community in particular would call Him, "bigot", "hater", and "intolerant" as is the gay community's rhetoric for people that go against their deviant and nasty lifestyle!

I doubt seriously that He would be called a bigot or a hater considering that He hung around with, ate with people of that caliber, namely sinners. If anything, it would be people like you that would be condemning Him to death. Note He did not hang around the religious leaders of the time, nor did He condemn the sinners of His day. Perhaps you would do well to actually read the gospels with clear understanding.

 Theologically speaking, while the sins you mentioned are an offense against a holy God, homosexuality is the ONLY one of the listed that God Himself calls an "Abomination!" Why is that? Because that particular sin is especially egregious against the "image and likeness" of Almighty God. I do not hate any gay person. What I detest is their insistence of legitimizing their behavior and trying to make it a normal phenomenon when in reality it is unnatural, shameful, degrading, an error, against nature, vile affection, of which adultery and other sexual sins are never called by those descriptions! That clearly means that homosexuality is especially egregious against God.

Another obfuscation on your part, Homosexualtiy being the only sin that God said was an abomination. Wayne seriously dude, do you read or do you just throw everything at the wall and hope something sticks, or that no one will actually check the things you say? Here let me help you out:

1.idolatry or idols (Deuteronomy 7:25, Deuteronomy 13:14, Isaiah 44:19)

2.illicit sex (Ezekiel 16:22,58, Ezekiel 22:11, Ezekiel 33:26)

3.illicit marriage (Deuteronomy 24:2-4)

4.male homosexual and (collectively) heterosexual immorality (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 18:27-30, Leviticus 20:13)

5.temple prostitution (1Kings 14:24)

6.offerings from the above (Deuteronomy 23:18)

7.child sacrifice (Jeremiah 32:35)

8.cross-dressing (Deuteronomy 22:5)

9.cheating in the market by using rigged weights (Deuteronomy 25:13-19, Proverbs 11:1)

10.dishonesty (Proverbs 12:22)

11.dietary violations (Deuteronomy 14:3)

12.stealing, murder, and adultery, breaking covenants (Jeremiah 7:9,10)

13.usury, violent robbery, murder, oppressing the poor and needy, etc. (Ezekiel 18:10-13)

 

Homosexualtiy the only abomination?? Did you just stop at Leviticus because there are a lot of other books in the Bible that speak to a lot of things including and not limited to redemption and how to deal with sinners.

 

So, in closing, I appreciate your passion and support of homosexuals. I love them as people too! And I love them enough to share the truth with them when they ask me, and I usually have a face-to-face with gay person at least once a month and the love of Christ is always my priority with them and many of them have come to faith in Christ due to the ministry that we have provided.

You do?  Your words do not bear that out, Proverbs tells us that “thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken by the words of thy mouth (6:2) Yanno I know of many preachers who feel that they have to tell the truth, but perhaps they would do well to recognize the example of the Apostle Paul who in the book of Acts found himself in Athens did not behave rudely, but rather spoke to them as men, spoke to them in a manner that was respectful. See many preachers, yourself included Wayne seem to not have that talent, the ability to not be rude when speaking to or of sinners. Now granted I dealt with you harshly because you ought to know better.

Jonathan:

 

I did not call you gay, I said what you wrote sounded "gayish" as that is what the gay community spouts when they attempt to refute people that disagree with their lifestyle. Nothing you wrote in this commentary did anything to change my perception! So I stand by what I said earlier. I have read thousands of responses and interestingly enough, all of the gay responders use the same rhetoric to defend their cause. In fact, I often wonder if they are given classes as to how they should respond to those that would challenge their lifestyle.

 

The Scriptures you listed don't all use the same word for "Abomination". The word for homosexuality is a unique word that clearly shows God's detest of that particular sin as it mars the image and likeness of God. But better still, in Romans 1:24-28, God gives the description of homosexual behavior in a way that no other sexual sin is ever described when He calls it "unnatural, against nature, an error, shameful, degrading, and vile affection."

 

Name one instance where God ever called Adultery "unnatural?" "Against nature?" "An Error?" "Shameful?" "Degrading?" and "Vile affection?" Thus your Scripture listing does absolutely nothing to make a point. Of course, biblically literate understand that fact.

 

For the record, I didn't considered you dealing "harshly with me" as what you wrote I've seen many times over as I have stated and it is typical. Yes, this generation would hate Jesus if He were on earth today. They would call Him a bigot, hater, intolerant, and any other derogatory term if He spoke out against their perversion. They would hate the apostle Paul as well as some of the other apostles for the same reasons.

 

Now, as for your charge that the church should not be involved with politics/Government is absolutely astounding! Biblically speaking, you cannot support your statement. Did you not know who's idea it was to form Government in the first place? Perhaps you need to read Romans 13 and there you will helped in your understanding of the role of Government and our relationship to it.

 

Jesus got very much involved with politics. He challenged the establishment of His day, upheld the holy standard of His Father, and encouraged His followers to "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's!" When we consider the issues of abortion, gay marriage, civil rights, justice, and liberty, the Christian church absolutely plays a major role in affecting policies, etc.

 Whose business would it be, for example, to give people guidance on the morality of matters like war, justice, crime, the treatment and punishment of convicts, gambling, sexism, child labor, homelessness, immigration, pornography, prostitution, poverty, marriage, spousal abuse, child abuse, adultery, abortion, discrimination against minorities, ethics, drug addiction, unfair marketing practices or marketing of unsafe products, social contracts, labor practices, unemployment, consumer issues, building codes, banking practices, environmental degradation, human rights, vast inequalities of wealth, private vs. public property?

 

I would think the Christian church would play that significant role as she alone is the "pillar and foundation of the truth". Only those who confuse "religion" with "church", and "politics" with "state", can try to prevent the inevitable overlapping of religion and politics.

 

America was definitely founded upon a Judeo-Christian foundation and worldview without a doubt. Most of the Founding Fathers were not Deists as the liberals have falsely asserted, most were theologians, Christian ministers, bible teachers, etc. To address further the point of the church and the Government's connection, here are some notable quotes from some prominent Founding Fathers:

 

"The first President, George Washington, knew the decision to call for independence from England was momentous.  Washington was known as a Christian man.  On June 1, 1774, as the colonies were seeking God's will as to whether they should rebel against certain English laws, he wrote in his diary, '. . .  went to church and fasted all day.'
        We have today Washington's personal prayer book, 24 pages in his own handwriting.  In it he wrote, 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.'

 

'Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word . . .  Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life.  Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land.' (George Washington)

 

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.'" (George Washington)

 

    "John Adams was the second President and one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.  On June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he said, 'The general principles, on which the Fathers (the founders of America) achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young gentlemen could unite. . .  And what were these general Principles?  I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects (denominations) were united"

 

'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'
        'We have no government armed with power capable of contending with passions unbridled by morality and religion.'
        'Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand.' (John Adams)

 

"The greatest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. . .  No book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied, and so profoundly meditated upon as the Bible." (John Quincy Adams)

 

I think that just these few short quotes give an idea of what some of the Founding Fathers were thinking. There are more of course. I'm not sure where you get your info from, but it simply sounds more like it comes from where the gay revisionists get theirs.

 

Here is my final quote from James Madison:

 

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?'
        'No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution.'"

 


Jonathan:

 

 

 

I did not call you gay, I said what you wrote sounded "gayish" as that is what the gay community spouts when they attempt to refute people that disagree with their lifestyle. Nothing you wrote in this commentary did anything to change my perception! So I stand by what I said earlier. I have read thousands of responses and interestingly enough, all of the gay responders use the same rhetoric to defend their cause. In fact, I often wonder if they are given classes as to how they should respond to those that would challenge their lifestyle.

 

Once again being the child I see, playing word games is not something you want to do with me Wayne. I happen to have a great command of the language, and I know that  Saying that someone is doing something “gayish” implies something to the extent that the person themselves are wrapped up in homosexuality. Kinda like saying someone is doing something Christ like, it lends itself to that person or persons being Christian. So please lie to yourself if you must Wayne, but please do not lie to me or insult the intelligence of those who read this.

 

 

The Scriptures you listed don’t all use the same word for “Abomination”. The word for homosexuality is a unique word that clearly shows God’s detest of that particular sin as it mars the image and likeness of God. But better still, in Romans 1:24-28, God gives the description of homosexual behavior in a way that no other sexual sin is ever described when He calls it “unnatural, against nature, an error, shameful, degrading, and vile affection.”

 

Uh Wayne, either you cannot read or you are a  horrible liar…. Each and every one of the references given used the word abomination, now if you are attempting to weasel your way out of the argument by claiming some other syntax that is fine however YOU made the statement that” there is no other sin that is called an abomination” You did not qualify your statement so now when confronted with the facts you want to reconstruct your statement, Wayne perhaps you are not mindful of the structure of a debate, let me assist you, once you have put a statement out and it has been thoroughly refuted, you cannot come back and attempt to revise your original statement, you did not qualify it nor did you say that you were speaking only of sexual sins, you said and I quote “Theologically speaking, while the sins you mentioned are an offense against a holy God, homosexuality is the ONLY one of the listed that God Himself calls an “Abomination!”  Your words not mine, and a statement that has been refuted, now if you wish to continue we can do so, but please move on, doing what you are doing only serves to make you look foolish and uninformed…

  

Name one instance where God ever called Adultery “unnatural?” “Against nature?” “An Error?” “Shameful?” “Degrading?” and “Vile affection?” Thus your Scripture listing does absolutely nothing to make a point. Of course, biblically literate understand that fact.

Asked and answered son, you did not qualifiy that statement in your previous statement so you cannot change the perameters now. Its sad that for someone who is at least in your forties you still reason as a small child

 

 

For the record, I didn’t considered you dealing “harshly with me” as what you wrote I’ve seen many times over as I have stated and it is typical. Yes, this generation would hate Jesus if He were on earth today. They would call Him a bigot, hater, intolerant, and any other derogatory term if He spoke out against their perversion. They would hate the apostle Paul as well as some of the other apostles for the same reasons.

 

LOL apparently Wayne you do not read your Bible, Jesus associated with the sinners of his day, the prostitutes, the adulterers, the thieves, all those of whom the religious establishment as the worst of sinners. Sad truth is that the church that bears the name of Jesus has a problem with sinners. What is even sadder is that it would be people like yourself who would be just as blind as the pharasees were to who Christ was, and it would be you who would put Him on a cross because He would not be "holy" enough for you.

 

Now, as for your charge that the church should not be involved with politics/Government is absolutely astounding! Biblically speaking, you cannot support your statement. Did you not know who’s idea it was to form Government in the first place? Perhaps you need to read Romans 13 and there you will helped in your understanding of the role of Government and our relationship to it.

 

As far as your question as the origins of government, that is up for some debate, seeing as there are scriptures including the text you refer to as God having influenced the formation of government to deal with a world of chaos but that has been a debate that most scholars have been having for years

Ok now obviously you are referring to Romans 13:1-10. Now here’s the thing Wayne, see this is where a clear understanding of hermeneutics, coupled with history come in. Why would Paul write this, well let’s keep in mind that often the epistles that Paul wrote were an answer to various questions  that members of the church had at that time, so often times Paul’s writings were answers to various questions that the first century church posed to him. Now specifically what is Paul saying about government? He is saying that as believers that we should be subject to it that it is in place because God ordained it, regardless of its actions we are to submit to it and its movement, paying taxes as necessary and bestowing honor when it is due.  However one has to note that the language used in the writing do not denote a slavish blind obedience to the state, (seeing as the Romans had some really shady governmental practices in the first century). However also keep in mind this one fact, what Paul does not say is that we are to be wrapped up in it, in there are four points in the new testament and two in the old with regard to how we are to behave in terms of government they are:

  1. Pray for the governing authorities (I Timothy 2:1-2)
  2. Conduct themselves as law-abiding, taxpaying citizens (Romans 13:1-7)
  3. Give to the government all that it's due (Matthew 22:21)
  4. Honor those in authority and the institutions of government (Romans 13:1-7, I Peter 2:17)

Also keep in mind we are told to be salt and light, and as the prophet Nathan did with David speak truth to power, in the end though it is our influence through prayer and if necessary civil disobedience as shown in Acts 5 that guide the day. Not become one with the beast that is politics.


Jesus got very much involved with politics. He challenged the establishment of His day, upheld the holy standard of His Father, and encouraged His followers to "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's!" When we consider the issues of abortion, gay marriage, civil rights, justice, and liberty, the Christian church absolutely plays a major role in affecting policies, etc.

 

Uh Wayne, there you go again telling half truths, I wonder do you really know what truth is, or in your mind is truth situational? Yes Jesus challenged the establishment of the day, however it was the RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENT that bore the brunt of his ire. Dude even a child in primary Sunday School knows that. Jesus never once challenged the Roman government of his day, (once again this is where a clear understanding of history comes in my friend) The Romans ruled during this time, show me one time where Jesus challenged them during his ministry on a consistant basis the way he went after the Pharasees?  And as for you feeble attempt to twist scripture my friend the verse you quote has everything to do with the payment of taxes to the Romans and how the Jewish establishment hated doing it than it does with political involvement. So once again Wayne epic failure on your part to even understand what you read…… I almost feel sorry for you.

 

Uh Wayne as I pointed out in an earlier post and its clear that you do not read them but I am counting on other doing so, abortion has been an issue for almost forty years now, its not even the reason for the founding of the religious right, but here’s the thing, the GOP that claims to have the market cornered on knowing God and His will, have been in power more times than the Democrats. As a result they have had all three branches of government in their sway more times than the Democrats. In fact more often than not the only branch they did not hold was TSCOUS. Now here’s the thing, NOTHING has been done about abortions. NOT ONE SINGLE THING other than so called Christians murdering doctors to prove a political point. And if you ask them how would they enforce a ban on abortion, they have no clue. Many of them will do nothing because they depend on people such as yourself for a vote, because they know that you are too stubborn, too foolish to actually think for a moment and get a clue too silly to recognize that you are being used for a political end, and the sad truth is I believe that even if you came to your senses, you still would do nothing about it. Railing against muslims in this country and being just as brutish as they claim the muslims to be…. Also keep in mind these same evangelical churches were no where to be found during the civil rights movement. NO WHERE! Check the writings of Fallwell and Robertson and some of the others who were old enough to have a stance. Most were against civil rights. So social justice and the church, more times than not the church has been on the wrong side of history.

 

 Whose business would it be, for example, to give people guidance on the morality of matters like war, justice, crime, the treatment and punishment of convicts, gambling, sexism, child labor, homelessness, immigration, pornography, prostitution, poverty, marriage, spousal abuse, child abuse, adultery, abortion, discrimination against minorities, ethics, drug addiction, unfair marketing practices or marketing of unsafe products, social contracts, labor practices, unemployment, consumer issues, building codes, banking practices, environmental degradation, human rights, vast inequalities of wealth, private vs. public property?

 

 Dude do you listen to yourself when you write this dreck? Many of the things that you are speaking about the church or at least the religious right, is against. Most have spoken out against many of the things you speak of, and many have very little to say about others, for example the issue of poverty, an issue the church should be using her influence to do something about, but sadly she is as silent as she was on slavery.  Prostitution which is linked to the first issue I dealt with here, the church tends to be very pharisaical  when it comes to how they deal with women of ill repute. I find it interesting that YOU bring up discrimination against minorities when homosexuals as of now are the most discriminated against. Anytime a state says that they can fire you simply because you are gay, that is serious discrimination, but I guess you do not see it that way.  As far as unfair marketing practices where was the church, and where is the church when it comes to payday loan houses that charge ridiculous rates, in fact where is the church when it comes to charging interest at all, if you bothered to read the passages I gave you yesterday you would have seen that usury is something that is an abomination, (there is that word again that according to you is not there). And as far as the church goes with inequities of wealth….There are more millionaire pastors whose member are either cabbing it  or on the bus or walking to service. Apparently when the Bible speaks of the church of the first century having “all things in common” among themselves you along with many others were absent that day in Sunday School when it was taught that the early church wiped out poverty from among their midst.

 

I would think the Christian church would play that significant role as she alone is the "pillar and foundation of the truth". Only those who confuse "religion" with "church", and "politics" with "state", can try to prevent the inevitable overlapping of religion and politics.

 

 

 

America was definitely founded upon a Judeo-Christian foundation and worldview without a doubt. Most of the Founding Fathers were not Deists as the liberals have falsely asserted, most were theologians, Christian ministers, bible teachers, etc. To address further the point of the church and the Government's connection, here are some notable quotes from some prominent Founding Fathers:

 

Uh Wayne, you obviously are regurgitating what someone has told you, if you bothered to exercise that muscle between your ears and use you head for more than a hat rack and actually check sources you would know that Jefferson while touting Christ denied Christ’s diety. In fact according to some of his writings and I post them here unedited and in context:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."[2] In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error."[3] Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

1803 April 21. (Jefferson to Benjamin Rush). "To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other

 (Stating that Jesus ascribed to Himself every “human” excellence and believing He never claimed any other” In  short denial of Christ’s diety, and yet you and a whole lot of other folks are so desparate to continue the lie, that even when it is in front of your face you deny it.

 

"The first President, George Washington, knew the decision to call for independence from England was momentous.  Washington was known as a Christian man.  On June 1, 1774, as the colonies were seeking God's will as to whether they should rebel against certain English laws, he wrote in his diary, '. . .  went to church and fasted all day.'

        We have today Washington's personal prayer book, 24 pages in his own handwriting.  In it he wrote, 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.'

 

 

 

'Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word . . .  Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life.  Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land.' (George Washington)

 

 

 

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.'" (George Washington)

 

 George Washington was a man for whom if you were to look at his writings, you would be very hard pressed to find any deep, personal involvement with religion. Washington thought religion was important for the culture and he thought religion was important for soldiers largely because he hoped it would instill good discipline, though he was often bitterly disappointed by the discipline that it did or didn't instill.

 

And he thought that society needed religion. But he was not a pious man himself. That is, he wasn't someone who was given to daily Bible reading. He wasn't someone who was evangelical. He simply was a believer. It's fair, perfectly fair, to describe Washington as a believer but not as someone whose daily behavior, whose political life, whose principals are so deeply infected by religion that you would have felt it if you were talking to him.

 

...The principal Founding Fathers--Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin--were in fact deeply suspicious of a European pattern of governmental involvement in religion. They were deeply concerned about an involvement in religion because they saw government as corrupting religion. Ministers who were paid by the state and paid by the government didn't pay any attention to their parishes. They didn't care about their parishioners. They could have, they sold their parishes. They sold their jobs and brought in a hireling to do it and they wandered off to live somewhere else and they didn't need to pay attention to their parishioners because the parishioners weren't paying them. The state was paying them.

 

 

 

 

    "John Adams was the second President and one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.  On June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he said, 'The general principles, on which the Fathers (the founders of America) achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young gentlemen could unite. . .  And what were these general Principles?  I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects (denominations) were united"

 

 

 

'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'

        'We have no government armed with power capable of contending with passions unbridled by morality and religion.'

        'Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand.' (John Adams)

 

 

 

"The greatest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. . .  No book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied, and so profoundly meditated upon as the Bible." (John Quincy Adams)

 

There is an issue with this quote Wayne, it is not found in any of his writings, in any of his speeches, or anything that would point to this being accurate. Even the guy who first attempted its first use had an issue with it seeing as it was dropped by him and picked up by someone else…. But here is a link specifically on this subject of Adam’s beliefs

 

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/misq5.htm

 

I think that just these few short quotes give an idea of what some of the Founding Fathers were thinking. There are more of course. I'm not sure where you get your info from, but it simply sounds more like it comes from where the gay revisionists get theirs.

Here is my final quote from James Madison:

 

 

 

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God?'

        'No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution.'"

 

 

OK wow, as a current history major how can I begin to dismantle everything you just said. Lets begin with that last quote, you claim it is from James Madison, well see Wayne, its actually from Thomas Jefferson, and there appears to be questions as to if it is authentic, you see just as the “Christian nation is a myth those seeing to propagate this whammy also have to lie about quotes from the founding fathers to further their agenda. The quote that you attempt to cite comes from or at least part of it comes from a book written by Jefferson entitled “Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, "Manners knowing this one can find where the quote was lifted in the section that deals with the question of slavery  “For if a slave can have a country in this world, it must be any other in preference to that in which he is born to live and labor for another: in which he must lock up the faculties of his nature, contribute as far as depends on his individual endeavors to the evanishment of the human race or entail his own miserable condition on the endless generations proceeding from him. With the morals of the people, their industry is also destroyed. For in a warm climate, no man will labor for himself who can make another labor for him. This is so true that, of the proprietors of slaves, a very small proportion are ever seen to labor. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure, when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of god?” 

Keep in mind Wayne that for your statement about the quote from Madison actually coming from Jefferson, and seeing as that it had been lifted by those who wish to make Jefferson into a Christian, when he was not, is not just a lie, it is an uninformed lie. So far we have seen that you are willing to regurgitate the lies of others in order to facilitate your point. Because of this I cannot, and would not call you a liar as you are not the originator, I can however call you ignorant as you would be foolish enough to use something that you had not first of your own volition vetted. This is something else that I have always said, before using a quote or any such thing have the common sense to vet it otherwise whould you be proven wrong you look as you do right now, straight foolish.

All I can say to you Wayne is this, I am going to let Proverbs 23:9 be my guide in dealing with you

The fact that you have yet to answer some questions that I have posted, yet I have dealt with you point for point. You gonna answer or are you going to keep avoiding?

Jonathan, Wayne used the gayish line on you as well?  It is better with some people that we excercise walking away.  He is too mean spirited.

Gerald:

 

I think the difference is Jonathan says he is not gay, but there is no doubt in my mind that you are! As you've never denied it. Perhaps God saved Jonathan out of homosexuality, I don't know. No, I'm not mean-spirited at all, I simply have little or no tolerance of cowardly men who hide behind their homosexuality and then try to force your lifestyle down the rest of society's throat!

 

I've beaten you to the conclusion that I should walk away, and that is why I turned off my e-mail alert concerning this thread. I hope in the meantime that you will get saved and let God deliver you from homosexuality! "Whomever the Son Sets Free, Is Free Indeed".

And for some odd reason you call yourself not mean spirited. Wayne you really need to grow up dude! you do yourself no favors by calling people gay, and then acting as though your hands are clean. Children do that, LITTLE CHILDREN do that, Little children who are devoid of both rational thought and maturity do that. It is not becoming of someone who names the name of Jesus Christ. As far as having been delivered I love the way you exercise the thirteenth gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of presumption, you use it oh so well. You presume because I recognize something about homosexuals, that I came up through thier ranks. Once again  your lack of maturity shows dude. You owe Gerald an apology!
Jonathan, Wayne doesn't owe me anything.  I am good.  Thank you though.  Wayne is angry and bitter in regards to this issue.  It shows.

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