Though I would like to be done, the Lord led me to realize that in previous garden discussions I neglected to make reference to Genesis 3:14 which states:

“And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.”

The question is, when God says, “Because thou hast done this,” what specifically is he referring to? The preceding verse (Genesis 3:13) says:

“And the LORD God said unto the woman, what is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.”

It is my assertion that God validates the truth of the female’s confession in Genesis 3:13 (and therefore true initial lack of intent to sin in Genesis 3:1-6) by saying to the serpent, “Because thou hast done this” in Genesis 3:14. That is, God proves to believe the female was tricked into this sin just as she confessed (and was subsequently proven honored in alignment with the will of God in Genesis 3:20).

But what do you think? Did the female speak the truth in Genesis 3:13 and God believed her? Or did she lie in Genesis 3:13 and make God into a fool because he proves to believe her by cursing the serpent in the very next verse saying “Because thou hast done this” (and even allowing her the honor to be called “Eve” (life-giver) and “mother of all living” in Genesis 3:20)? Or if you don’t believe God was speaking in Genesis 3:14 about the confession of the female in Genesis 3:13, what then in reference to the serpent was he speaking about saying, “Because thou hast done this?” What specifically did the serpent otherwise do?

Keep in mind Genesis 3:15 when God says:

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Genesis 3:14 and 3:15 are written as one sentence (one complete thought/action of God) separated only by a colon (and even positioned as a direct response of God to the words of the female in Genesis 3:13). So we know whatever was the justification of God (a justification determined by the free-will and dominion of humans causing God to either destroy, save, punish, or honor) to punish the serpent in Genesis 3:14, and to even make a difference between his “seed” and her “seed” in Genesis 3:15, had nothing directly to do with Adam. In action, this is solely between the serpent and the female, otherwise Genesis 3:15 would have been inclusive of Adam yet it is not (though we know both sinned).

What do you think?

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Brother Watson,

Thank you for getting back to the word here. You said: “Now, the curse of the serpent in Genesis 3:14 involves something that the serpent did, and not what Eve did or said in Genesis 3:13. What did the serpent do?” How much do you think God expected of the serpent in the garden? Is the serpent the one God desired to make into his image? But of course not. In the garden God sought the proven righteousness of the male and the female. God allowed the presence of the serpent to test them.

God punished the serpent, but given the free-will and dominion given to man, as in mankind, how is it that he could do so in the absence of a declaration of truth made by either one or both of the humans? It is was up to them (having dominion) to demonstrate their choice either for or against God in the garden. Otherwise, how can you say God is just to have furthered the evil in the absence of a right confession by either? Let’s not forget too that it proved the will of God for Eve alone to be honored in both name and title (“mother of all living” as a childless virgin in the garden).

You said: “He didn't have to wait until the Woman said something about what happened.” So now again, confession before God means nothing? And by the same logic, that Adam lodged accusation before God meant nothing to God either?

If God had intent to set aside responsibility of the humans to demonstrate a choice for righteousness in the garden and to just instead punish the serpent for being the serpent in the garden (having the nature that we all know he has), how is it that God does not condemn himself when it was he who elected to create in a garden where the serpent even was in the first place? Now God is made into a sadistic maniac wielding punishment in the garden upon the man and then too the female thru Adam and all because of his own doing.

You said: “I believe that Adam was seduced as well, because he was there with her, and he to did eat. But the Puline writings point out that it was Eve who was deceived.” So you can believe that Adam knowing the word was there yet said nothing, but you won’t exam what it took for him to be there, knowing the truth, that she just spoke in error, and yet he said nothing with her life at stake, but did prove a willingness to himself eat of the fruit as well after she seemingly survived it? That’s holy? Just? Do we really believe God missed this?

Question, what does it take to be seduced if not that you are lured, even unwittingly tricked into doing something which you otherwise would not do? You acknowledge and excuse this of Adam, but elect to only stand against the female for herself falling to such trickery because Paul said so. I love Paul too, but as a man himself raised on the tradition, he was wrong about that. You don’t see the contradiction Brother Watson, the hypocrisy here?

You said: “I find this interesting, because according to Genesis 3:3, she said, "God hath said." This tells me that God also told her the same command that He told Adam, with the exception of what she added to the command, "neither shall ye touch it." Where does the word prove that God gave this command to the female? You say I read too much into what is not there.

And then you go on to say: “Lastly, I definitely believe that God believed that what Eve told Him was true. There is no doubt about that.” So is God just stupid? How can you know that Eve added to the word, but then you also say that God believed what she said was true in Genesis 3:13? You have a problem here brother. And how do you believe what she confessed as truth but then believe her to have been punished by God and then believe that God would subjugate the one proving faithful to his own righteousness beneath that of one who did not? How do you even believe this, that she confessed truth, and then deny to her every single thing you would expect from God for having confessed truth in the face of sin yourself?
My Problem with all this is that we should be supportting and uplifting each other instead of trying to find faults in the word! This whole Discussion makes no sense to me. Why debate what we cant control. Do we not have more important things to do in ministry? That's my Question.
Brother Watson,

I just re-read my last post to you and I must apologize, I meant what I said but don’t like my tone, there are things I could have said differently. So please forgive me, I get way to excited at times.

You said: “It is also interesting that God cursed the serpent, the Woman, and Adam in the order that they sinned. God always does things decently and in order.” But, if you believe God received, even believed her confession, upon what basis do you believe he punished her? Consequences to the now presence of sin I believe she got but not punishment. Keeping in mind, it was in alignment with the will of God for her to be “Eve” (life-giver) and “mother of all living” as a childless virgin in the garden. How do you interpret what it means that she was called “mother of all living” in a fallen garden as a childless virgin? And if this does not speak to the physical (I don’t believe it does) then how does God righteously also punish her? (I don’t believe the details of Genesis 3:16 proves punishment).
Ok Brother Watson, I would rather just agree to disagree.
Pastor Morris,

I believe that ministry should be executed upon the basis of truth, and you are right, we should be supporting and lifting one another up. However, when a word as given from the pulpit proves not to be based upon what is the actual word of God, and yet still applied in the lives of believers (I speak specifically of the female here in this instance) then we would be wrong not to test it. I would be thrilled to call it a day in the garden if all would submit to the NT and end the subjugation of the female. But that has yet to happen. Paul points us back to the OT about the female, but upon what basis other than the tradition, is she to be subjugated?
Dawn,
The Bible is not to be debated but it is to be obeyed! My point is if the word is preached incorrecttly and it isn't for you the shake off the dust. I join bpn thinking that this was a site of support & encouragement! I thought that bpn would be a means of building ministry relationship and expansion but i've come to realize that this is not much different than (Myspace< twitter, Facebook,etc) any other social site. When will we realize that we are in the business of restoration.
Shalom Brother,

You know when people are passionate about a subject they tend to get emotional. If we can learn to bridge the emotion to the positive remembering the call of ministry then we will be able to subject ourselves to "love your neightbor as yourself' as Messiah said. We just have to be ready to teach and not beat, and that people have opinions because they have questions concerning the Word. Father Yahweh says in Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” says יהוה. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. This Scripture means that He will bring us to His Understanding so that we can walk righteous before Him, He will make all things that are not right...Right. HalleluYah!

Blessings, Shalom
Rabbi and Dawn, this should have been one of the greatest conversations on BPN with regard to the 'garden' incident.

Rabbi Byers, the moment you spoke to Dawn the first thing she said was, OH, I SEE WHERE THAT FITS IN. That's because you spoke to the issue intelligently.

WATSON, I love you, and actually WANTED YOU to participate in this conversation because of your intelligence. I wrote and told you that.

The subject matter is fascinating and I wanted to hear all takes on it for in it is spiritual enlightenment as the Holy Spirit speaks through each and every righteous believer.

The Most High is NOT offended if we question His word for Scripture says, 'It is the GLORY of Yahweh/God to conceal a matter and the GLORY of Kings to search it out and reveal it' (Prov. 25:1 PP).

In other words, it is stimulating to discuss the secrets and treasures of God amidst His word. The Bible is like a giant puzzle. His word on a myriad of subjects is revealed throughout. I think Rabbi AviYah Byers proved that when she brought up the NUMBERS Scripture and how it is relevant.

Indeed, the entire Hebraic is relevant to understanding what happened in the Garden. Again, this would have and could have been so spiritually nourishing.

Dawn is not out to blaspheme rather to reveal, understand, enlighten, question and that is what goes on among scholars everywhere and everyday.

As they do this, truth crushed to the ground rises again. Please, WATSON let the Most High reveal the hidden knowledge about the ISSUE that he has spoken through you via the Hebraic.

I do get why certain unlearned to the in-depth truths of God went to a ungodly, disposition that they thought righteous, but I do want YOU WATSON to begin to speak on the deep Hebraic aspect like Rabbi Aviyah Byers is doing.

Talk upon the whole Paul versus the 'God blessed THEM' aspect. Explain why the 'serpent' beguiled her. What do YOU feel she did versus what Dawn feels she did? Again, the 'subject matter' is what this woman seeks to discuss.

Let us 'feast on the Living Word' and see what the Holy Spirit will bring forth. That's what this conversation should have been about.

You look on what is called Christian TV and there are shows like 'Ancient Biblical Secrets' who explore history, Hebraic, and Biblical to come forth with the true meaning of any given Biblical issue. Why not Us? The same Holy Spirit is in Us so let's respectfully discuss to the Glory of God.
Brother Morris,

We are charged by word to study to show ourselves approved a workman needing not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth So if in the process of doing so what we study does not line up, and then even leadership cannot address it in the word, but instead chooses to subjugate anyway, I am supposed to feign this belief as well and then submit to it? This pleases God? That we all in "obedience" to man fail to address the contradiction taught in God? You are not restoring me as a female when you also tell me that due to the garden I am under subjugation to man as punishment by God. Freedom? What freedom? What equality? We are all one in Christ Jesus? Not the subjugated.

I hear you, I want what you want, but we can't get there by exalting anything less than what is the Riighteousness of God.

About the BPN, you are right in many respects, which is why I tend to just come and go, but there are others here who might be more in line with what you are seeking. It just takes time to get to know people.
I couldn't disagree with you more Pastor Morris. I joined the 'discussion board' to DISCUSS any given issue. There is a old Negro song, 'This Little Light Of Mine, I'm Going To Let It Shine.'

I believed this DISCUSSION BOARD was a place to let the knowledge of the Holy Spirit SHINE through ANY GIVEN BELIEVER no matter what their title is or is not.

We are ONE in Christ or supposed to be.

Dawn is NOT the first to bring up the controversies on the woman's role. Many women have left the church and gone into untoward lifestyles because of the inconsistency of the so-called church.

Many of us righteous women and righteous men for that matter, have arisen to question the hypocritical lies and deceits put forth by sexist males. There is nothing wrong with that.

It does not make us the JEZEBEL SPIRIT or any EVIL SPIRIT for obeying God and putting forth or exalting truth with regard to women. I guarantee you this, few are the males who ever stood with women to break the lies and deceits spoken by twisted male clergy with regard to women but the fact is, WOMEN DID ARISE AND THAT, BY THE WILL OF GOD.

We learned that there were many lies and inconsistencies and therefore, the will of the Most High would have us correct it.

As for Dawn, she has spoken truth as she understands it, just as the 'Woman at the Well' spoke TRUTH to Yahshua as she understood it. Yahshua did not berate her and accuse her of evil rather, discoursed and enlightened her which resulted in her bringing her whole village to Christ (Jn. 4).

In like manner, niether should any of his alleged followers. Now, don't get me wrong, I understand passionate debate. I've had such convos but still, whatever subject matter any believer puts forth or for that matter, non-believer, the true believers should be able to use TRUTH to combat it versus the MISJUDGMENT.

Bottom line, BPN is an opportunity to show that BLACKS have IN-DEPTH INTELLIGENCE into the DEEP TRUTHS OF GOD just like whites. 'Ancient Secrets of the Bible' and other shows reveal much knowledge about the Garden incident.

I even saw a documentary that spoke of the in-depth meaning of 'Havvah (Eve) and the Garden.' It even went so far as to discuss the whole 'Lillith' factor. As such search out the ancient books including the 'Lost Books' etc, and couple it with the Bible and factual ancient archaeological findings 'TRUTH CRUSHED TO THE GROUND IS ELEVATED.'

There is nothing wrong with those shows discussing the deep issues and there is nothing wrong with Dawn putting forth the same deep issues. Afterall, it's not like she, nor God,' is going to 'beat you all up' because you don't know the answer.' Sheeeeh.
Brother Watson, I love you with the love of Jesus. Truth be told, you follow me from post to post. I have never told you that you have to be here (or any where that you keep showing up), I have even asked why you do. Be careful here, we need to speak honestly to Brother Morris, it is never about us but God. I have freely admitted and corrected myself about speaking in a way that I wish I had not, even in the post just above, but if anyone were to follow the threads of our convesations, in all of these like discussions, I don't think they would call me the heavy when it comes to launching character assault.

Peace and love.
No one follows the teachings of the Bible is why there is contention.

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