Well I guess when it comes down to it, just as Esau sold his birth right for a pottage, Obama, everyone's great hope forgot who gave him the victory and decide to sell his soul for another shot in the White House.

And before anyone jump up I have been an Obama supporter, but I can't agree with this move. Obama has just decided to put worldly prize above principle and above the things that is scared to God namely he has decided tojoin in the desecration to Gods oldest institution, the marriage.

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Yes the article by the Catholic church is selling FEAR which is the work of the devil I might add. I am not buying it and neither should anyone else. The European Court is not over what we do, nor may I say is the US courts and we operate currently in more than 70 different countries.

Yes you have mentioned several times about you not being a citizen of the US, but you use articles generated by the Catholic Church in the US which is why it brings the 501c3 into play. Yes you seem to have concerns, but I am not sure what those concerns are? Jesus did not start Christianity. If we are going to go for accuracy I have said nothing against Jesus or Christ or the body of Christ. I take exception to the use of the word "Christianity" as it is UN-scriptural. I mean either go with scripture or get rid of it? If you go with scripture great, but then we should not bring in Christianity and its beliefs which are very vague and differ from one Christian denomination to another. It is vague so it does not have to be responsible. When someone says they are a Christian what exactly does that mean? It sounds like it is saying something, but with 20,000 plus sects of Christianity it makes it impossible for anyone to know exactly how they are using the word. All denominations state they agree with Scripture and that it is the infallible word of God, but then turn around and use words not in scripture, making it sound like those words are in scripture? That is what really does not make sense. None of us are to be vague or misleading except we intentionally use words that are vague and misleading? Yes I have a beef with that.

The big difference again is that a Christian is not required to represent the love and will of God, where one of God is required to represent the love and will of God. However when people hear the word Christian they are led to believe that a Christian does represent the love and will of God to find out later that they really do not. They may be representing their denomination, but that is often time a far cry from representing God.

One further note that people should look into. Nowhere in scripture does it say that one must be a Christian to be saved, however Christianity teaches that one must be a Christian to be saved and it teaches that all Christians are saved. Doesn't anyone else see that  when it comes to false teachers and preachers have any concerns about this besides me? I mean people walk around saying they are not false teachers or preachers, but then preach and teach things outside of scripture. Honestly I am not being picky but if we say that the Bible is the infallible word of God then why do people keep adding to it?

Sarah I am not American so the European court is over the land of UK and the Government of this country already stated its the desire to make this law before the next election and to encompass all that the European court states about no exception all they who refuse to perform gay marriages will have their licience revoke whether are not it get pass in the courts is another matter however the fact they will try to put it through is enough, that my dear is persecution removing licience of ministers who do not wish to perform marriages and possible imprisonment is the work of the devil.  Now it does appear as if things are going a little slower in America but as I said America is only one small section of the globe things are happenning in lots of places

My dear what I am saying it is like the pot calling the kettle black when you complain about people calling themselves christianity yet use the name Jesus as so many know there was no J in the Hebrew language so the name Jesus was use probably by the catholics, so my dear food for thought.

Well said.

Gerald I posted the document and explain it was what the European Courts are saying was what was of concern. Anyway I have never been catholic and have no desire to be catholic because my Bible did not tell me to bow down to man or to worship man. Neither did the Bible tell me to pray to Mary or to the apostle it says pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus. My Bible also tells me that there is only one way to the Kingdom and that is through Jesus Christ that means that no amount of money that I or my relative pay could get me into the Kingdom.  So I hope it is now clear that I am not a catholic

ECtHR: Churches WILL be forced to conduct same-sex marriages

Maybe I missed the point of what you posted then? I thought you were saying that you were concerned that we would have to preform marriage services for anyone including gays? You are correct in that Brother Phil and not you that was concerned about this coalition?

But I do want to make sure that I understand your point? Your saying that the Christian church will be forced to preform marriages for anyone including gays and you are saying that scripturally all the stuff you said about gays?

You said " First and foremost I am a lowly servant, who is a true believer and no it it not man who say you must stand united as a body it is Scripture and it is not man that says one must make a decision it is Scripture that says one cannot have two masters and it s not man that state that shepherds ought to keep the sheep together it is Scripture."

I do not see anywhere in scripture that we have to make decisions? What I was saying only is that one is either ordained by a church or denomination or they are ordained by God. If a church is doing the ordaining and also is a part of the 501c3 which has the power over the denominations as it was those churches that were set up so they would be acceptable to the government, then it is the church doing the ordaining and not God. Does that make sense why I say that?

I can comment on Catholics as they have always claimed to be the true "Christian" church or "Christianity," as that is what they have claimed. They assert that that pope is "Christ" on earth and if one does not agree with that then one is not a "Christian." I go ok with me.You stated that I am preoccupied with the Catholic church but if one looks at church history you can see that most of the denominations broke away from the catholic church : Sects of Christianity . The reason I speak of it often is that Christianity (so when one speaks of Christianity) it brings in the Catholic church whether they know it or not as it was based on Peter when Jesus said to Peter upon this rock I will build my church. The Christian church accepted that Peter was that rock. I do not personally believe that as I see the rock as being the rock of love, because Jesus said that they will know that you are mine by your love one for the other. Now why back again to the Catholic church and its design is that even though that others broke away from the Catholic church, many of the practices including owning property were kept. In other words the groups that broke away including Baptists, Lutherans and others got rid of some of the practices of the Catholic church but also kept some practices of the Catholic church in keeping and owning property even though Jesus nor did any of the disciples, turned Apostles taught to build church buildings or own property and in the US to have property one needs a 501c3 to be exempt from taxes, but what it also does is that one enters covenant with government and the government becomes partners with the church and the ownership of the buildings, which is how the government can demand that the organized church preform marriages for gays and other groups. I mean if you want to stop abortions for example, then we have to stop being a part of the government? I mean dah............ The government allow for abortion and the church stands against itself? Why because the church is partnered with the government. I mean you can't pull down abortions if your getting tax benefits from the government that allows for abortions. It doesn't work that way.

This is not about gays. It is about the government usurping authority over the church and the government will win because all those that have 501c3 agree to obey all and any laws that the government create, even if they go against God or scripture. It is the church giving away its birthright which as to do with your starting of this thread or at least that was my understanding of your thread?

I also want to make it clear that I am not leaving the sheeps as you put it to the mercy of the government not now or ever will. We have never been a part of the organized church and the 501c3. We all have been given a free will and if we are of God and representing God's will then we will also allow people to do things as God does as we are not formed to represent ourselves, but God and that is what Jesus was saying. If you know me, then you know the Father that sent me and when someone deals with us we also should be able to say to them that if they know us then they will also know the Father that sends us. I think Geralds point, not speaking for Gerald, but from what I understand that if we attempt to control people then we stop representing the will of God, and I will add that what we do is create another denomination and that was never intended.

Why this is a very big subject or at least to me is one group called Christianity believes that Jesus came to start a new religion called Christianity. The other group has no name and it was born from the concept that Jesus came so that all could be grafted into the promise.

You know Sarah I kind of missed your state that the Bible does not tell us to make decision, this was your reponse to me saying basiclly we have to make a choice because Scripture state we cannot have two masters.

Well Sarah I guess I am at fault because before indulging in this conversation or dialouge with you maybe I should first of all ascertain that we were speaking of the great I Am, creator of heaven and earth , Him you gave His only begotten Son to die for us.  Now it has become clear that we are not both talking about the same person, because you see throughtout the words of my God it is clear right from the garden of eden that makind had a choice to make that of good over evil, life or death.  Not sure which gods you or whose word you are refering to when you says the word does not state that we need to make a choice, but it case you are not on the same page as me maybe I ought to recommend the Holy Scripture to you as a reading material then you could undestand exactly where I am coming from when I say we are to stand united, shepherds ought to protect the sheep and each and everyone has to make a choice.  Life or death so Crist or satan, good or evil need I go on.

What I said is those that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. As such, we are not making decisions. What we are to do is seek God for the truth and learn to be led by His Spirit and that really is the only decision we are to have? Salvation is learning to be led by the Spirit of God and not going off and making your own decisions.

Jesus came so that all could be grafted into the promise, but we have to stand on that promise and we have to learn to be led by His Spirit. Scripture does not say that Jesus came to start a new religion called Christianity so we can make our own choices, which is what is often taught in many Christian churches. In fact in many of the same churches they teach that the Word of God is the Bible, when scripture clearly says that Jesus is and was the word and always will be the Word.

Scripture also tells us that they will know that you are Mine by your love one for the other, while Christianity teaches that what it takes to be a Christian and to be saved is to "simply believe." In addition Christianity also teaches that once saved they are always saved and in Revelations it clearly says that ones name can be blotted out of the Lambs book of Life.

It is heresy to teach things not in scripture. It is heresy to teach that we have a choice. If we belong to God then what we are to do is to represent the love and will of God to all people on earth equally. If one is of God we get to be servants and servant does not make choices?

A very sincere question.

This sometimes help shed some light.  Those that do the will of the Father, by the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 7

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These were so-called Christians distorting the truth of God, not unbelievers.

Anyone can have the power of God by believing they have the power of God. Mark tells us that that those that believe will do these things. That does not mean that they belong to God or Jesus. The ones that belong to God and Jesus are known because of their love one for the other.

It is very important to teach the truth and the truth is that all of God's gifts are irrevocable and anyone can do miracles and even raise people from the dead. But Jesus said "they will know that you are mine by your love one for the other," and either that love is there or it is not. Matthew 25:31-46 tells us that the righteous will be told to go away as they never new Him. How we love others is how much we love Him.The righteous asked Jesus when did we see you hunger or naked or sick or in prison? Then He said whatever we do even to the least of these we do unto Him.

If we really love God we cannot afford to allow starvation to continue or allow people to go homeless and we need to deal with the sick and care for the needs of those in prison, which goes far beyond teaching and preaching at people. We are also to love our enemies as well as those that like us and we should love all equally, not taking preference one over the other. Say we cannot fix the problems? Scripture tells us we can do all things through Christ if we are focused on the right things and the things God cares about is people. 

Now having said all of that the further truth is that there are many religions including Voodoo that does miracles and healing all by the power of God because all power comes from God, but that does not mean that they are from God or even represent God, His love or will.

I will also go out on a limb and state that if we do not love, then we do evil. The only way not to sin is to walk in love. Blessed are the peacemakers as they are the children of God. True peace is always focused on God's plan for us as individuals and seeking God for His will laying down our own lives as Jesus did (1 John 3:16). But in addition it is to seek God for our purpose and calling and direction in life including who we should be married to or where to work, etc. We follow not because of rules but because of His love towards us.

So do we make a choice when we love or when we hate or are you saying God leads us either to hate or to love as He feel. Because if there is no choice for us to make then those that do evil according to you is being led to do evil by God because they don't get to mae choices. I am hearing you right am I Sarah.

I am having a hard time understanding why God would lead someone to do the things He does not do or he is against such as leading someone to sin and if ypu are going to responsd that God do not lead anyone to do evil, to sin then you are saying people sin by choice you cannot have it both ways.

I am not getting it? Please show me scripture or explain why you feel we have a choice? Either one belongs to God or they don't. If a person belongs to God then they are required to represent the love and will of God. What I said was "Christians" are not required by anyone including God to represent the love and will of God and that is where the evil can come in and where God often gets the blame or acts in "Christianity." It is far easier for one to say one is a Christian (in Christianity there are more than 20,000 sects and normal people would call that division, but that is another topic. A Christian probably more represents a denomination in how they do things) than to say one is sent from God.

Scripture says that those led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. If it is the Spirit of God then it will produce the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, etc against such there is no law. Paul tells us we are bond servants but better.

Sarah the more I read through what you have written the more concerns I have. Throughout your response you appear to take a holier than thou attitude, in that you believe that you are truly called and ordain by God but anyone who proclaim that they are a Christian are not ordain by God but ordain by man . I believe what you saying is that God did not call his followers Christian therefore anyone who call themselves a Christian is not of God. I notice that you label yourself as Dr Sarah, could you explain why you have the title Dr in front of your name and also could you direct me to the Scripture via chapter and verse where Dr is a calling or an office given by God or where God ordain someone as a doctor. I am just curious how one person would be classified as call by man if they are a Christian yet considered call by God and ordain in an office that God has clearly not listed as a called office.

I wont even bring you into place where to support your argument you state one has a choice but when it does not support your argent you then say man has no choice but are led by God.

I would really appreciate if you could respond especially with the Scripture that pertain to a Dr being a calling and if you have no Scripture maybe you could explain why it is okay to use the title doctor 

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