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In Light of The 9 Gifts of The Spirit: Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healing, Miracles, Prophecy, Discerning of Spirits, Tongues and Interpretation of Tongues according 1 Corinthians 12:8-10...Do you believe that "Speaking in Tongues" is the first evidence of being filled with The Holy Ghost?
Right ON!!! Prophet Smith, Good Theology man.
Brother James The Joshua 24:15 has nothing to do with salvation but service. Joshua is speaking to the covenant community of Isreal. This same statement is never mentioned in the new testament relating to unbelievers. Unbelievers cannot nor will not choose Christ. Check out this quote, "Far from having a free will to choose or make a decision for Jesus, the Scriptures speak of the natural condition of man as an enemy of God. “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.” [Romans 8:7] The fleshly mind “does not” and “can not” submit to God's law. Such sure testimonies should answer the question “Can we make a decision for Christ?” The Scriptures plainly tell us “no”. St Paul quotes from the Psalms, “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” [Romans 3:10-12] And the Lord Jesus testifies, “The light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” [John 1:5] (pastor wolfmueller, 2007)
How one understands man's ability affects his/her ministry practice. Suddenly our ministries become works based versus Grace based. Soon our ministries become legalistic and manipulative. For By Grace are we saved......
Joshua 24:15 has everything to do with Choice! Joshua wanted to bring that to the attention of Israel!!! Hebrew 11 gives many examples of Old testament saints hightlighting New testament principles!
We understand our natural state, as you correctly pointed out! But did'nt Abraham have that same nature? Yet Romans 4:3 Clearly states, in the New Testament, "...Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
None is righteous, as you correctly pointed out, but if you Believe God is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him...That's an action word..."Seek!"...according to Hebrews 11:6. He will count it unto you for righteousness, and make possible The Plan For Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ!!! We're not passive participants in Our Relationship with God!
Man's ability is to reconize his postion (lost without God) and Recieve The Gift of Salvation!!! That's Free-will, and it's Wonderful!!! I am not a Robot!
Faith without Works is dead...I knew it was a reason I was named James!!!!
We are saved by Grace...Amen!!! and we choose to Recieve this Great Gift!!!
Thank you for you time and your insight.
(Had to delete last reply, had too many mis-spelled words...nothing new, just had to re-write.)
The Principle of Free-will is being missed!
We can't Breathe without God's Help...but Man chooses to continue to Breathe. Man can choose to stop Breathing...God has allowed us certain rights and responsibility. No matter how much one wants to frame up their postion, Man is into a Robot!
"...Choose you this day whom you will Serve!!!"- Joshua 24:15
(new) "...he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him!!!- Hebrews 11:6
(Responding to Todd H. McCauley's comment: Pastor James, I'm some what disappointed...)
This is the problem with True Biblical discussions...It's not about you or me, it's about The Word!!!
Enoch's free-will was to "Please" God by Obeying Him...Obeying God is better than Sacrifice to Him!!!
It was not Enoch's free-will to be rewarded or translated by God, That was God's Grace...I'm sure you know this fact...but in order to frame up (defend) your postion that Man has no free-will...and that God Forces some to go to Heaven and Forces other to go to Hell...something simple is made difficult. Saying Man had no free-will is beyond what the Bible states!
I find it odd that some one can defend a postion that some people are Born to go to Hell, and there is nothing they can do about it!!! That would make Preaching The Gospel in vain!!!
Until He comes....Yes, until He comes...but
He's here right now, and Where two or three are gathered together in His Name...There He is in The Midst..."Praying for more Revelation for The Body!!!" - Matthew 18:20
We know the condition of Man...but that does not justify being Hell-bent. I'm a Heaven bent believer!!! I will continue to Preach what John The Baptist and Jesus The Christ, Son of The Living God Preached..."REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND...REPENT AND BE CONVERTED!!!"
You turn from you Sins, and He will Empower you to Walk in His Path!!!
(How can there be an disagreement with The Message of John The Baptist and Jesus The Christ???)
God Bless you Brother, stay encouraged!!!
1 Corinthians 14:1
Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may
im curious what do you do with this verse? mainly the connection between love, or rather the command to Pursue Love and Earnestly desire Spiritual gifts. Hear the writers is showing us the means and the how both spiritual gifts and love flow together.
Pursue Love- this is coming right after 1 corinthians 13 were paul goes to get lengths in breaking down what love is. Now in 14:1 hes giving the Corinthians the command to Purse this love if you will that He just explained, then he gives us insight into how this love should be pursed. He Then writes desire earnestly spiritual gifts. why would he write such a thing? understanding the purpose of spiritual gifts are to edify and strengthen the body of Christ. Also if we are to include the gifts of the 5 fold ministry (dont really wanna get onto that) then the gifts are to also build up and equip the believer into the head which is Christ or in more simple words bring the body too mauturity not being blown by every wind of doctrine.
so my point now is Paul in 14:1 is telling us Pursue love and desire to build up and encourage each other, rooting them firmly into christ.
so if spiritual gifts are no more then also the command to purse love then is nolonger aswell.
we cant preach love then say the gifts have ceased. The Scripture teaches they go together.
i do believe the bible when its says the time will come when they will be nomore but that is not in this life time but in the one to come.....
i wrote very quickly please excuse any type o's
1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow after Love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Joel, And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams...
For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people.
To whom He said, This is The Rest; and this is The Refreshing, yet they would not hear.
Repent ye therefore, and be convert, that your sins may be blotted out, when The Times of Refreshing shall come from the Presence of The Lord. And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you...
Maybe this is why so many "down-grade" The Speaking of Tongues.
Pastor James, the key word in your question is "GIFT". If tongues is a "GIFT" which I believe it is, then it CANNOT be an evidence of the H.S. filling. Why? Because Paul argues clearly in 1 Cor 12:30 that not all believers possess the gift of tongues, healing or interpretation (Paul's question is asked in such a way as to solicit only a negative answer, "NO") Therefore logic would dictate that if all do NOT speak in tongues then tongues at best cannot be an evidence for all believers. At best it can only be an evidence for SOME believers. There is a difference between the "gifts" of the Spirit and the "fruit" of the Spirit. Every believer should evidence the fruit of the spirit, BUT not every believer will evidence all the gifts of the Spirit. Tongues is indeed a Gift and NOT Fruit.
Greetings Brother Todd H. McCauley,
I took great care in starting this discussion with a question and not a statement. I currently share your view.
However, I have to provide Scripture for the opposite view, exploring the Revelation God has given The Whole Body of Christ! That way, if there is false doctrine rooted in The Church, It could be up-rooted by The Light of His Word.
Those who support the view that Speaking in Tongues is The First Evidence of The Baptism of The Holy Ghost will site The following Scriptures.
1. Isaiah 28:11
2. Joel 2:28-32
2. Mark 16:17
3. Acts 2:4
4. Acts 2:16
4. Acts 10:44-48
5. Acts 19:6
Those of this view would answer you saying "Not that every believer would recieve The Gift of Tongues...only that it is the first "sign" or evidence of The Filling of The Holy Ghost", pointing to Acts 2:4 and Acts Acts 10:44-48 as the first point of contact.
And they would note, Paul spends alot of time explaining The Gift of Tongues in the Life of The Church (1 Corinthians 13 & 14). We can not ignore the fact that The Speaking of Tongues was an Important function in The Church then, and it is an Important function in The Church now...and because it is misunderstood, abused and neglected...The Church needs a Unified,Solid, Scripture-based Approach to it.
I read the history of The Church of God In Christ and The Church of Christ Holiness USA, and the founders, Elder Mason and Elder Jones split because of this issue. Both men stayed in Godly fellowship with each other...but never came to a Unity concerning this issure. Both Churches are great examples of Godly men doing what "thus saith The Lord", but one view has to be right, and one wrong..."no it not a matter of Salvation"...but I believer it is a matter of Empowerment!!!
God Bless you Brother, and Thanks for taking the time to share.
Another thought Pastor James. If one makes tongues an "evidence" of the H.S. vs a gift that is sovereignly given by the Spirit to whom He pleases, then one is in danger of setting believers up for failure. If tongues is an evidence of the H.S. then believers are often manipulated or guilt tripped into having to manifest this gift as proof that they have the "H.S." This is poor theology at it's best. I've heard plenty of stories of people who have been made to sit for hours "tarrying" for Tongues. Many believers have been made to feel like they are spiritual second class citizens because they have NOT had the experience. Worse yet some believers have been told that they are not saved because they haven't spoken with tongues. Pastors are called to shepherd the flock, NOT manipulate or guilt trip the flock as a result of poor theology.
Again, I am of your view.
However, I believe Speaking in Tongues have been given "a bad rap" because of This Culture to make Christians who don't Speak in Tongues as if they are Spiritual Second-class Citizens.
It is total unexcusable to hint that one is not saved because they do not Speak in tongues.
Biblical based Discussions benefits every True-seeking Christian.