Many use the following verse to prove that good people go to heaven the moment they die;

 

Luke 23:[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

But since we know that not even Jesus Himself went to heaven to be accepted by the Father at the time of His death, how is it possible the thief went?  It's not!  And since it's not that MUST mean Jesus was talking about a time in the future for the thief to receive the promise that Jesus made to him.

 

These same people then say, "Well what about Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mountain?" 

Well, let's read what Paul had to say about some of the saints that died.  Let's read if they have received the promise of eternal life with christ yet.

 

Heb.11
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
[25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
[28] Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
[29] By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

 

and the following;

 

[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

 

So the above would include Elijah.  Now let's read if any of these have received the promise of eternal ilfe with Christ;

 

[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

So Moses, Elijah or any of the saints are in God's kingdom.  They have not received their spirit bodies.  Let's read when this will happen.  Let's read when they will become perfect;

 

1 Cor.15
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

Notice these bodies will be RAISED!  And at what time?  Let's read;

 

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

So the thief, Moses, Elijah, Abraham, David, and ALL those saints that died with a good report, and those alive at Jesus return, will all receive God's promise at the same time!

 

At the LAST trump!  That's when the saints of God will receive the promise.  And not a moment sooner!

 

As a side note:  Even after receiving the promise NO ONE is still going to heaven!

 

 

 

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Some have said that Jesus 'spirit' went to heaven the moment He died and that it was just His body that was here in the grave. Well for those that want to believe that, I must ask the following;

What was it that was to be accepted by the Father for our sins? A spirit or a body? Remember now; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Now let's read the following;

John 20
[11] But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
[15] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
[16] Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now we know a flesh and blood body cannot enter into God's kingdom.

And we just read that Jesus, 3 days and 3 nights AFTER His death still had not gone to be accepted by the Father. So what went to heaven? Was the Father waiting for a flesh and blood body? Was Jesus spirit not enough?

You cannot ignore scripture! Jesus said He had NOT ascended to His Father!!

SO WHAT WENT TO HEAVEN?????
Nothing went to Heaven Brother.. It is an imagined phenominon..
People continue to try to say that there are saints in heaven. But that just does not line up with the word of God. Let's read;

Let's read what the GREAT Paul said! You guys do believe what he wrote, right?

Heb.11
[2] For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Let's see who some of these elders were;

[4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

So far we have Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham as ones that died with a good report. Meaning they obeyed God and was found worthy to the promise of eternal life. Let's read more;

[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

WHAT? All of these died but did NOT receive the promise? Even AFTER Jesus died and returned to be with the Father?

The Great Paul must be mistaken! Let's read more;

[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[21] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
[31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

So now we just added Issac, Jacob, Moses and Rahab to the list of saints that also died with a good report. Are there more? Let's read what the Great Paul says;

[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

So King David is added to this growing list of saints that ALL died with a good report. Now let's read if Paul said ANY of them received their reward;

[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Great Paul said ALL of these died having NOT received God's promise. He even goes on to tell us none of them would be made perfect BEFORE any of them that were yet alive.

Understand something here; this is AFTER Jesus returned to be with the Father.

So do you think the thief on the cross received God's promise BEFORE any of these saints? Of course not!

Let's read what Jesus said again, but this time let's move the comma (something that is not in the original manuscript) over one place;

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

What Jesus was saying is, "Today I am telling you, shalt thou be with me in paradise."


Plain and simple!!!!


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I keep bumping these threads up because they are relevant to truth.. Most everybody on this network post the imagination of their own hearts, and not the Word of God.. Nobody cares for your opinions of the Word.. Post the scriptures of the Precept you are teaching if you are a real teacher.... This is for anybody who post their own thouts of the Word.. Here is the purpose of man: TO BECOME ONE BODY, AND ONE MIND CALLED ISRAEL , TO BE GODS IN JERUSALEM. SOME RULING WITH CHRIST, AND SOME TO ETERNAL DAMNATION..
Some have said that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses that are to return to earth, proving that some have gone to be with God in His kingdom. But that just cannot be the case. They are not with God, nor are they or can they be the two witnesses.

Let's look at this and reason for just a moment;

Heb.11
[2] For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Now let's read of some elders that had a good report;

[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

So we have Enoch, who according to God's word did not see death. But he also did NOT receive the promise of eternal life yet either. We'll read that in a minute. Let's read another verse;

[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Notice the last part, "...and of the prophets:" So that would include Elijah since he was a prophet. Now let's read to see what Paul said happened to these people;

[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises,

And again;

[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Paul then adds the folowing;

[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So Enoch nor Elijah have been made perfect. Meaning neither one of them have received their spirit bodies yet. Paul goes ont to say that they would not be made perfect without him and those present with him at the time of his writings. We know this because Paul tells us when we all will be made perfect. Let's read when we will become perfect;

1 Cor. 15
[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

So how will we be raised? Let's read;

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

We are born in a body that decays...in corruption. But our spirit bodies will live forever....incorruption. Paul explains;

[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

And what does this mean? He tells us in the next verse;

[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul tells us that our natural bodies are born in corruption and dishonour, meaning they are made to pass away, decompose, die. But not our spirit bodies....they are made to live forever.

And what is God's promise to all that keep His commandments? Life eternal with Him in His kingdom. And this is the promise all of the elders that died with a good report did NOT receive yet! Now let's read when we receive this spirit body;

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is why Paul said all of those elders have not received God's promise. Because we all get it at the same time, at the sounding of the LAST trump and not a moment sooner. Now let's read how he, once agian describes our bodies;

[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The moment our corruptible bodies put on incorruption and become immortal, is the moment we become perfect. Now let's read what CANNOT happen to an immortal body;

[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

An immortal being CANNOT DIE!!!

So is it possible that Enoch and Elijah have been made perfect? According to God's word NO!

That also means they CANNOT be the two witnesses! Why, you ask? Let's read;

Rev. 11
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

IMMORTAL BEINGS CANNOT DIE!!!!

We must use ALL the words of God for this to make sense!

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

ALL SCRIPTUE is to be used to prove doctrine and for correction!!!

Again, Jesus did not go to heaven when He died, nor did the thief, nor did Enoch, Elijah or any of the elders that died with a good report.

They ALL are waiting for their change to come.........at the LAST TRUMP!!!!



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Actually, I was told that Enoch and Elijah were the best candidates for the two witnesses in Revelation. Because neither was ever recorded as having died, because God seemed to gather them both up to Himself,
it made sense that they were the witnesses.

It says quite plainly in the Bible that people are appointed to live, to die once and then comes the judgment [Hebrews 9:27]. Because two people in the Bible appeared to never have died, their return and martyrdom would preserve the truth of that scripture.

Of course, there would be no reason to assert that Enoch and Elijah are in Heaven to support their identity as the two witnesses. They wouldn't have to be in heaven... just preserved by God somewhere until He intends to make use of them..
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