KING JAMES VERSION ~~ An authority?~~~~ or ~~~ A Hindrance to Christianity ?

Who has made the King James Version of the Bible, " The Authoritative Version?

What View of the Torah does it foster?

Should we rely more upon a Hebraic Version of the Torah?

Why is everyone so attached to the King James Version, in the West?

Brenice FireAngel

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Are you telling me that JESUS's words "Love YWHW your GOD with all your heart mind sould and strength" and "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself" is not enough? Are you saying "A new commandment I give you; that you love one another as I have loved you" hold little weight in light of the Law of Moses? Are you saying that an order to keep Sabbaths when such an order was not commanded within the NT is still needed?

Al I want is this: tell me where there is an outright command for Sabbaths and the like to still be kept either within the epistles or Acts. They gave clear cut orders before on many subjects, because there is no such thing as a "no-brainer subject".
Trevor,

Are you telling me that JESUS's words "Love YWHW your GOD with all your heart mind sould and strength" and "Love thy neighbor as you love yourself" is not enough?

You have to actually do the Torah to carry out the 2 "greatest" commandments. The 2 greatest commandments were never meant to follow them without all the rest. That is illogical!

Are you saying "A new commandment I give you; that you love one another as I have loved you" hold little weight in light of the Law of Moses?

I am sure you are familiar with textual criticism. The word "new" actually is the wrong interpretation. Why? Because loving Yehwah our elohim is mentioned in Duet 6:4-5. Love your fellow man as yourself is mentioned in Lev 19:18. So, Yeshuah actually saying "new" is highly doubtful. There are more weighter matters of the Torah, but Yeshuah said in Matt 5:19,"Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Are you saying that an order to keep Sabbaths when such an order was not commanded within the NT is still needed?

It was no need to "command" the Sabbath. How can you command it to a bunch of Hebrews? Also, The letters of Paul were not "establishing" letters. He was sending letters to Synagouges(wherever they were) that were already established under his teachings. He already gave them Torah lessons when he first established the Synagouge. Plus, The Sabbath is already apart of the decree of the New Covenant, so there's no room for excuses.

Al I want is this: tell me where there is an outright command for Sabbaths and the like to still be kept either within the epistles or Acts. They gave clear cut orders before on many subjects, because there is no such thing as a "no-brainer subject".

Technically, there are no outright commands for none of the Torah. Why? Because these people were already keeping it! Now, Yeshuah had to knock down some traditions, but other than that, Torah was already established! New Covenant decrees that I gave above does not lie, and you will not dance around them.
No one's dancing at all. All I want was a clear cut decree stating the keeping of such things like Sabbaths, Feasts, ect. Acts 15 was clear on what the Gentile believers were to keep. It never mentioned Sabbaths. Again, there is NO SUCH THING as a no-brainer here. All rules were still laid out flat and clear so no one would have an excuse.
Trevor,

I would like to address the problem of Acts 15. Make sure all of your pre-conceived understandings of what I am about to say are set aside, and open your mind. Before one jumps forward to the conclusion of Acts 15, one must ask themselves,"Why did the Jerusalem council come together, and what was the problem?" The problem is laid out in Acts 15's premise, verses 1-2:

Acts 15:1-2,"But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

As we see here in Acts 15's premise, the reason why this council of Jerusalem came together, was because certain men were teaching that If you are not circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. Paul and the Apostles came together to discuss this very matter., and its so much to the reasons they came together.

First off, we have to consider some key things before actually diving into Acts 15. Background information is critical here. Notice that these men, who were most likely Jews, was teaching that circumcision saves you, and that it is according to the custom of Moses. I have come to tell you that there is not one single verse in God's law that even hints that circumcision saves a person.

The bible does shows us that God commanded his people to be circumised, because it is the sign of the covenant He made with Abraham. The consequence of not being circumcised was being cut off from his people, and not be apart of Israel, and the covenant. The scripture states In Genesis 17:10-13,"And this is the covenant which you shall fully keep between Me and you, and between your descendants after you for their generations; every male of you shall be circumcised. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised by you, every male throughout your generations, and the servant born in the house and he that is bought with money, of every son of a stranger, who is not of your offspring. He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with money shall surely be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

The scripture clealy shows us what circumcision really is according to the written law of Moses, and not from traditions. Get circumcised as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant. Each person, including the Gentiles that went with Israel, had to undergo this commandment.

The bible shows us that Abraham was saved before circumcision was ever a law. Romans 4:3 states,"Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” You can attest to this fact. So, the premise of Act s 15 is really showing us that its not actually the written custom of Moses that tells us salvation comes through circumcision, rather, it is the written customs of man that teaches this.

Take note of Jesus' words in Mark 7:6-8: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.

Notice the phrase where Jesus said that they leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men. That's exactly what's happening here in Acts 15. It is the mere posing of man's traditions on the followers of Jesus and the Israelites. And so they are bringing these traditions into question at the council. These traditions are what ancient, and modern Rabbis refer to as "fences", which guard around the written law to conceal the truth of actual interpretation.

Another key thing to understand is that Jews back then, and even in this day and age, still hold the Oral law(Talmud) in higher esteem than the actual written law that is outlined in the 1st five books of the bible. In their world, and today's world, a Rabbi's word will take 1st place over,"This is what the LORD says, or it is written." This is the exact background of Acts 15.

So, now you understand that its not the custom of Moses that command circumcision for salvation, but its the custom of man that does, for Jesus said,"You leav e the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.

Now, the Apostles are there confronting this very premise, and Peter made the truth of the Gospel very clear to them all. He stated this truth in Acts 15:11,"But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

Do you see that? Peter refuted any salvation by the law, and made the Gospel statement, that we are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, and that the Gentiles will be saved the same way. Paul attested to what Peter said concerning salvation in Christ when he said in Eph 2:8-9,"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." There is no separate law, or salvation for the Jew & Gentile. All are one in Christ, and all are saved by Christ, and not the law.

Lets get to the four laws that all the Apostles agreed upon to give the Gentile believers as the intial acceptance into the Messianic Jewish community. It is the common misunderstanding, and possible deception, to believe that these four laws that were given to the Gentiles are the only laws that they will ever have to follow in their walk with Jesus. But, is this actually true?

Let us take a closer look at these 4 laws:

abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols

From scripture, and historical background information, we know t hat things that have been sacrificed to idols are food. Even Jews are not to eat anything sacrificed to pagan gods. In the Greco-Roman world, this practice was carried out in the pagan temples, where they would have feasts, and eat meat that was given to idol gods for their own pleasures. This actually breaks the 1st commandment in Exodus 20:3,"You shall have no other gods beside Me".

from blood

Dealing with Blood, Lev 17:12,"Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No soul of you shall eat blood, and the stranger that abides among you shall not eat blood." Technically, the Apostles were agreeing that Gentiles follow Torah here. The word stranger here refers to Gentile peoples, for the record. If Gentiles are to live with, and be in covenant with Hebrews, then they are to adhere to their laws.

from what has been strangled

To get a clear understanding of what this actually means, one must look into the culture of the Greco-Roman people. It is shown that when these pagans do their sacrifices to eat them, they would strangle the animal, and technically, blood will be trapped in their flesh. The animal is not properly drained. Jews were commanded to stay away from this as well. Them eating strangled animals will violate the command to not eat blood. Thus, Gentiles were commanded to keep Torah here.

from sexual immorality

Lev 18 clearly gives us laws dealing with sex, and that Jews should stay away from any sexual conduct that violates Torah. Gentiles were to do the same thing, and hence, they are following Torah on here.

What am I showing? I am showing that Gentiles still obeyed Torah, and I am also showing you that these four laws were what the pagans actually did. In other words, they ate meat given to idols, things strangled, ate blood, and fornicated.

But why give them just these four laws to obey? The answer is interesting here.

Jews of that time were already offended that uncircumcised people(Gentiles) were going into the courts, and synagogues, learning their laws. They did not even want to be around Gentiles. In order to not offend the Jewish community, and, in other words, make them feel good, the Apostles wanted these Gentiles to keep these four basic laws that everyone agreed on to get them accepted into the community. By the Apostles agreeing to these four laws, they would be accepted by the Jews, and this would lead to the understanding of verse 21.

James also states a great statement that most Christians miss. He stated in acts 15:21,"For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

In other words, Every city has someone teaching God's laws every Sabbath, and eventually, the Gentile believer would learn of their new God, and his laws every sabbath. In fact, this is the only time they could hear the Old Testament---The Sabbath! By doing this, th ese new Gentile believers would also be learning about the Sabbath day and how to keep it. It would not make sense to cram every law of the Torah down their thrats right then and there, therefore, they would learn all the law every Sabbath. James gave those laws to get them accepted into the community, and to start them off with the law, which is the right thing to do with Gentiles who were not born into the Hebrew faith.

One may mention Acts 15:10 where it talks about putting yokes around the necks of the Apostles, and others that want to follow God. The yoke is not the law of God. The Law of God was never looked on as a yoke of burden. If that was true, then all the prophets would have been in trouble, and they would not have blessed God's law. Paul said in Romans 3:31,"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Its no use to uphold a law that is burdensome, and cannot be kept. God's word declares that we can keep his law, and its not a burden. Duet 30:11,"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off."

In fact, Paul stated in romans 7:12,"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." No burden at all. 1 John 5:3 states that Gods commandments are NOT burdensome. So, the yoke he mentions is not referring to the Law itself, but of the TRADITIONS OF MAN, which these traditions forces the law to become a burden to men.

This is why they did not want to put everything on these new Gentile believers. They would eventually learn the Law every Sabbath(Acts 15:21), so that they will learn the TRUTH of the law so that it would not be a burden resulting from Men's traditions. I believe I have addressed this problem of Acts 15, and I hope your mind stays open to learning of the wonders of God's holy law and prophets, for it is the foundation for which all of God's word incepts(begins).

1 John 5:3,"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."
Trevor:
Please list all of the commandments you find in Acts 15, and ONLY Acts 15 that the Gentile is to obey, please, since according to your theology, Acts 15 summarizes the Gentiles obligation under the New Covenant.

Interestingly if we limit the obligations of the gentile to Acts 15, I see no requirement to:

Repent,
Be Baptized
Love God
Love Your Neighbor
Take the "Lord's Supper/Communion
Honor your father or mother
Refrain from stealing
Refrain from Coveting,
Refrain from taking Our Father's name in vain
Go to church to worship or assemble
Give any offerings
Moniarily support a pastor/teacher
Help widows or orphans
A woman or man might as well have multiple husbands or wives, as long as they are legally married, why not...
And the homosexuals, no need to object to that lifestyle, as long as they are monogamous!
Fathers could marry daughters, mothers could marry sons, as long as they are of legal age, why not. Acts 15 does't forbid that...

Also, look at all the money churches today could save on mission since there would be no need to go preach the Gospel to all nations, since the Apostles and Elders in Acts 15, trumped/overruled the Great Commission of of our Savior spoken in Matt. 28:19 - 23!

Yes, if the disciples actually followed YOUR interpretation of Acts 15, the church would have died out in the first century.....
The Bible clearly states that the Sabbath commandment was a sign to Israel of the covenant. Any covenant God made with his people was accompanied by a sign. When God made a covenant with Noah after the flood the sign of the covenant was a rainbow.

"And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.” So God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth" (Genesis 9:12-17).

When God made a covenant with Abraham, the sign of the covenant was circumcision.

"This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant" (Genesis 17:10-14).

And when God made a covenant with Moses and Israel the sign was the Sabbath day.

"Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested’” (Exodus 31:12-17).

These signs of the covenant served as distinguishing marks that set Israel apart from other nations of the world as well as a constant reminder of God's covenant with them.

It is interesting to note that when Jesus instituted the New Covenant, the sign of the covenant was communion.

"For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes" (Ist Corinthians 11:23-26).
Trevor,

The Bible clearly states that the Sabbath commandment was a sign to Israel of the covenant. Any covenant God made with his people was accompanied by a sign. When God made a covenant with Noah after the flood the sign of the covenant was a rainbow.

It was a sign to Israel, yes. You must not forget one thing. Israel was not the only ones coming out of Egypt! Gentiles were coming with them. Torah states in Exodus 12:49,"There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." Your logic would follow like this: Even though the Gentiles came out with them, those Gentiles would be free to worship their own gods, and not Yehwah himself. Torah refutes you buddy. Both Hebrew & Gentile are to adhere to the same Torah that comes from the mouth of Yehwah.

It is interesting to note that when Jesus instituted the New Covenant, the sign of the covenant was communion.

"For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes" (Ist Corinthians 11:23-26).

Actually, the sign was not simply sitting at a table having supper. The sign was blood as he stated. This blood is a decree of the New Covenant(Jeremiah 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8:8-12). The New Covenant decrees are as follows:

1) I will put my Torah within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people(verse 33). This actually means that your life will be directed, controlled, and governed by the Torah. The "heart" in the Hebraic understanding is the seat of one's moral and ethical decisions, the place where one decides. The phrase "I will be their God, and they my people" is a familiar phrase, which connects with God governing you by his Torah, and that is also in the book of revelation. Revelation 21:3,"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God." How do man become Yahuweh's people? It is by being under the new covenant WITH its three decrees, and that truly includes obedience to the Torah.

2) And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord(verse 34). To "know the Lord" makes use of the word "know" (yadah in Hebrew) in a technical sense relative to covenant making. To "know the Lord" does not mean to "know about the Lord," but to "know" Him in a covenant sense(i.e., to be loyal to Him in regard to the covenant decrees). In short, to "know the Lord" means to be obedient to Him by keeping the commandments of the covenant He has made.

3) For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more(verse 34). This was done, of course, when Jesus came, for his blood covers our sins, never to be remembered anymore. Jesus said in Matthew 26:27-28,"And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

These 3 decrees are it, Trevor. Why do you continue to remove the 1st decree. Do you have the spirit of the anti-christ, who seeks to change the times and the Torah(Daniel 7:25)?

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