There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

Views: 526

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

After many debates and various talks concerning the Law & Prophets (Torah & Neviim), better known as the Old Testament, a question and an issue must be faced. The covenants of old were confirmed in different ways: a sacrifice and a rainbow were the signs of the covenant with GOD and Noah, circumcision and a sacrificed son were made a covenant between GOD and Abraham, and so on....

The covenant signs of our salvation today are more than what we often teach. The blood of JESUS is just one part of this. The other portion is an ignored portion by many: THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Old Testament baptism is by water. This is why John the Baptist was doing it, however saints today do not understand this. John the Baptist, being a Prophet, however said that the LORD would not use water but the "baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT and fire." JESUS said in Mark "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved". Far too often people take that as water baptism, but neglect the words of Prophet John the Baptism. John (O.T. Prophets) stressed water baptism, JESUS was the beginning of the NT Apostles & Prophets.

Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession --to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 4:29-30 "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Saints, PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT STRESS THE UPHOLDING OF TORAH ABOVE EVERYTHING, have you been filled with the HOLY GHOST as of yet since you believed? If not, then what do you believe sealed the covenant between you and GOD?
VERY INTERESTING! EXPOUND MORE, PLEASE!
Trevor,

Jeremiah 31:31,"Behold, the days are coming, declares Yehwah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah."

This is one scripture that is surely worth noting, because this scripture, at least the phrase "new covenant" is the center of debate, and is missed by many Christians. Most Christians that I have spoken with believe that they are under the new covenant, and that this new covenant was made with them... without the Torah. They insist on believing that this new covenant was made with them, and that they do not have to follow the Torah of Yehwah our Father.

But, the truth is, this new covenant was not made with Gentiles, rather, as Yehwah said in Jeremiah 31 & Hebrews 8,"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah."The Hebrew people are the ones that Yehwah, initially, has made the covenant with, and no one else. This covenant includes the following decrees:

1) I will put my Torah within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people(verse 33). This actually means that your life will be directed, controlled, and governed by the Torah. The "heart" in the Hebraic understanding is the seat of one's moral and ethical decisions, the place where one decides. The phrase "I will be their God, and they my people" is a familiar phrase, which connects with God governing you by his Torah, and that is also in the book of revelation. Revelation 21:3,"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God." How do man become Yahuweh's people? It is by being under the new covenant WITH its three decrees, and that truly includes obedience to the Torah.

2) And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord(verse 34). To "know the Lord" makes use of the word "know" (yadah in Hebrew) in a technical sense relative to covenant making. To "know the Lord" does not mean to "know about the Lord," but to "know" Him in a covenant sense(i.e., to be loyal to Him in regard to the covenant decrees). In short, to "know the Lord" means to be obedient to Him by keeping the commandments of the covenant He has made.

3) For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more(verse 34). This was done, of course, when Jesus came, for his blood covers our sins, never to be remembered anymore. Jesus said in Matthew 26:27-28,"And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

The above three decrees are included in this new covenant, and were only made with Israel & Judah. But what about Gentiles, you may ask? Well, Gentiles who convert to the Jewish faith will be under the three decrees of the new covenant. Yehwah will write the Torah on the Gentiles hearts and minds, they will know the Lord in the covenant sense, and He will forgive them of their sins.

I want those who believe that Gentiles are to keep a different Torah than what Yehwah gave to Hebrews, to consider the following verse:

Exodus 12:49,"There shall be one Torah for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."There is one Torah for the Hebrew & Gentile. Two Torahs do not exist. Christians love to hold to the belief that they do not have to keep the Torah, but that means they are not being faithful to the covenant decrees, and more over, not under the new covenant, and more dreadful, being Torahless.

Christians cannot come into the covenant of Yehwah, and change the Torah and times. The only spirit that does this is the spirit of the anti-Christ. Daniel 7:25,"He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the Torah." When the covenant was made, the three decrees would be here to stay, and no one can change them.. not even Christians.

Where does a Christian fit into this covenant, you may ask again? Let us look at what Paul said in Romans 11:19-20,"Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in', That is true."Christians, here the words of Yehwah. If you claim to be under the new covenant, then you cannot come in there with the spirit of anti-christ, and try to change the times, and the Torah. You are commanded to keep Yehwah Torah. If Jesus upheld Torah, then why not you? Do you think Paul agrees with you in not keeping Torah, thus disobeying Jesus?

If you do not want to keep his Torah, then you are not under the covenant, and you are none of his. Christians believe that Paul himself taught against the Torah. Guess what? That would make him an anti-Christ, and a hypocrite, for Paul himself said that he was a Pharisee!(Acts 23:3-6). We know its not true that Paul did not keep Torah, because the Apostles of the Lord would not have accepted him into the Apostolic community.

Paul says something in Hebrews 10:26-28,"For if we go on breaking the Torah deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Torah of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses." This scripture truly speaks for itself.

But, is sin missing the mark, according to Christians, or breaking the Torah? 1 John 3:4,"Everyone who makes a practice of breaking the Torah also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness." If you love Yehwah, then you would keep the 10 commandments, including the Sabbath, dietary laws, clothing laws, facial, feast days, wear the tzitzit, menstural, sexual, etc etc. The only person that can make these things a burden is yourself. Do not make the Torah a burden, but live it out with joy, as Yehwah intends for you to do. He wants you to enjoy loving, and obeying him.

Paul says another thing, Eph 2:12,"remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." This was the state of Gentiles before they came to Jesus. They were aliens from Israel, and strangers to the covenant. Those who believe that you do not have to keep the Torah under the new covenant are still strangers to to the covenant, obviously, lost. Do not be deceived by the enemy who does not want you to obey the Father.

In closing, Jesus said something very great & and very scary. Matthew 7:21-23,"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of Torahlessness." Basically, those who keep not the Torah, and practice breaking the Torah, will be told to depart from He who kept Torah, Jesus. Them that does not keep Torah will not inherit eternal life, or the kingdomf Of God.

Now, let me make this clear, no one is saved by keeping Torah, but, upon trusting in Jesus for our salvation, we are to be obedient to him.

Those who claim that the law is abolished, done away, and do not need to be practiced under the "new covenant", needs to take a look back at Jeremiah 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8:8-12, and the decrees, and repent of their Torah breaking, or else they will be told to depart from the Lord. Repent(turn to Yahuweh via his Torah), place your faith in Jesus for salvation, and live a holy life by keeping the Torah. LIVE!!!!!
After reading and re-reading your point, I must say that though you presented it well, a wrong idea dressed nice is STILL A WRONG IDEA. This is not an issue as to if Christians are grafted in or not, for we know we are. When we say Torah is done away with, the Apostle Paul explains it clearly. You often quote O.T. Prophetics, but hardly ever quote the NT Apostles and their decrees. You CANNOT understand a prophesy fully when it is first spoken (O.T.). You can only understand it fully when it comes to pass and is revealed (N.T.). It is IMPOSSIBLE to explain the new covenant from the O.T. alone. If it were possible, then the Pharisees, John the Baptist, and even the Apostles would have known it before JESUS went to the cross, but they DIDN'T. It was masked in the OT, however you have constantly tried to do so. The NT epistle verses that you do actually quote only repeat what OT verses say. For example Hebrews 8:8-12 is a DIRECT quote of Jeremiah 31:31, so there is not explanation. Lets see what the rest of that chapter says:

HEBREWS 8:6-13

6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

According to you, this is heresy. If I said this to you, then I would be deemed a heretic. However, I didn't write this. This is not heresy, this is SCRIPTURE! This is what the Apostles taught and what the Prophets predicted. You only cling to a prophesy, but a prophesy is NOTHING without manifestation and interpretation. Wise King Solomon said in all thy getting, GET UNDERSTANDING, and you will never understand the new covenant by only looking at the OT. You MUST go by the teachings of the Apostles, not just the words of the Prophets.

Has Hebrews 10:1 been forgotten and forsaken by you and those who hold to your doctrine? It clearly says "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."

Why will you never go and quote Apostle Paul in other portions of NT scripture? The answer is because you will NEVER find enough there to support your doctrine because it does not exist. However, there is enough doctrinal support from the Apostles to back my point up with even having to use it all! You once said that circumcision is still in play, that Sabbaths are still in play that Feasts are still to be held. These are all seals of covenants made within Genesis. There is little justification for Sabbaths, less justification for Feasts and ABSOLUTELY NO justification for circumcisions in the new covenant! NONE! Water baptism and communion isn't even the seal either because that came from the OT. Many Christians use that as an outward show of what happens inwardly, but even if it was done in the Book of Acts, it was not the seal of the new covenant and the seal of your salvation. Our seal of the new covenant is the HOLY SPIRIT.


Ephesians 1:13-14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession --to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 4:29-30 "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Quote something else besides a verse or two from Acts or Hebrews 8. Acts is a history book, not a book of Apostolic doctrine. You cannot build doctrine based on one's actions from the history books, but you must build it from the Apostolic teachings. Quote the Apostles and show us where your doctrine is built. Cults use one verse doctrine and they rarely ever find justification within the Epistles.
Trevor,

As many times as I've stated to you, Hebrews 8 is a chapter soley based on the "priesthood & the New covenant". NOT the whole of Torah & the new covenant. All that education you have from BC & Seminary, and you can't even read Hebrews 8 and see its exact context referring to the Priesthood? That is just your ignorance to the voice of Yehwah, and to true obedience.
What seminary?!??! What Bible school??!?! I did what you REFUSED to do: I quoted more of the chapter. It doesn't take a doctorate in Divinity or Hebrew studies to do that!

Why don't you tell the whole story?

Why didn't you quote the rest of that verse?

Why don't you go on to the rest of the Epistles like I asked?

Where is the teachings from the Apostles of JESUS Himself in the Epistles that proves your point?

Why did you ignore the verses I quoted in Ephesians?
Trevor,

I told the whole story my brother. The whole chapter is about the priesthood. No matter what you think it is saying.. the chapter is about the priesthood. When it says we have a better covenant, it is not referring to the whole of the Torah, rather the priesthood. It is the chapter's focus, buddy. Its no need to address ephesians because im not a legalist.

What is stopping you from believing that the whole of Hebrews 8 is focused on the priesthood?
I can address and even quote the entire chapter, a thing I have done before. However, your excuse as to why you will not address Ephesians is poor! You're "not a legalist"? Exactly what does that mean? I hope the meaning is good enough for ignoring the Apostle Paul's scriptures on the new covenant seal. The funny thing is, those who hold your doctrine were called legalists from the start!

What stops me from believing that the chapter focuses only on the priesthood is that I actually read not only that chapter, but the other chapters surrounding it. And not only those chapters, but the entire book, and the other epistles of the N.T.

What happened to my other request which was ignored? What happened to quoting other epistles to see if your doctrine is consistent? What happened to Galatians, Ephesians, Romans, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, and the like?
Here is Hebrews 8 KJV for all to see and know, without byass editing of verses:

1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4) For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Verse 6 says:

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry (which refers to HIS priesthood ministry), by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant (which refers to the covenant of the Torah), which was established upon better promises.

Moses is the mediator of the Torah, which is why it is called the "Law of Moses". JESUS is the Mediator of the new covenant, which is why we are now in what is called "the Law of Christ", not the Torah, or the Law of Moses. This is proven by Galatians 6. How about reading anything for that chapter, or even that entire epistle?
Trevor,

The Torah of Yeshuah is no different from the Torah of Yehwah His father. Yeshuah obeyed His father's Torah, and taught His father's Torah. This cannot be denied. I want to know if you can use Yeshuah to defend your lawless theology? I am in agreement that its referring to Yeshuah's ministry, but His priesthood ministry is not absent without these 3 decrees:

1) Torah written on our hearts
2) Yehwah shall be our God, and all shall know him within this covenant
3) Sin will be forgiven, and never to be remembered

My question to you is,"Why are you excluding decree #1?
In the beginning of creation, what was GOD's law to man? How about answering that one? This is where we are going back to, NOT the Torah of Moses that he received on Mt. Sinai, which was a covenant BASED on 1) the levitical priesthood, and the regulations that come with it2) the Ark of the Covenant, and 3) the sacrifice of goats and lambs.

GOD's LAW IS LOVE

We are returning to the ORIGIN, which was in YAH's plans from the beginning. A time that was not lawless, but the law was of love and fellowship. The more wicked the people, the more regulations are needed. With the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT however, you are no longer living by the flesh, but by the Spirit of GOD.

Now enough dancing around, how about bringing out what I requested? I have been respectful for this debate and others and have answered all questions and provided all requested info. How about doing the same? I request that you bring out proof of your doctrine from the other epistles of the Apostle. If you doctrine is true- IF - then it can hold its ground there as well. The Word of GOD stands strong against any challenge, so if what you are declaring to be the doctrine and word of GOD, then it will stand strong against my challenge.

RSS

© 2024   Created by Raliegh Jones Jr..   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service