New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Do you know what Yeshuah said about being kin to Him? Yeshuah said,"For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” What is the will of Yehwah? That we should live by every word that proceeds from His mouth... TORAH!(Duet 8:3).

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Your beloved Paul is telling you right here to Keep Yehwah's commandments, which includes the circumcision,"For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." You might say,"Well how is he talking about circumcision, when he refuted it a few sentences before that?

Well, Paul was not talking about a literal circumcision, rather, he was refuting a cultural difference. Thats only logical to conclude on why he said we should keep Yehwah's commandments. Why is that Logical? Because Torah commands that we are circumcised, and that we circumcise our children, on the 8th day. Open your eyes, Trevor!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

How foolish of you to think that physical circumcision actually does something to signify and solidify spiritual placement within the body of CHRIST! Romans 2 says this:

25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Does that mean ANYTHING to you at all or are you still bound within a gospel of works?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

I never, in any of my responses, said that Circumcision gives you a place of spiritual significance. That was the very thing that the Apostles called,"The yoke that neither we or our fathers could bear." Circumcision is simply a commandments just like keeping the Sabbath, and all of Torah. Its called OBEDIENCE.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

"Obedience" for what cause?!?! The point of circumcision was WHAT? You and I BOTH know what it was for! Circumcision was an O.T. covenant made with Abraham to give a place of spiritual significance. Anyone that did not do it back then was cut off from the covenant.

We are not living by circumcision now, but by faith.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Circumcision was shown as a covenant to Abraham back in Genesis 17,"He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” This covenant has not ceased, for it is forever throughout all generations.

Torah also decrees circumcision after a woman gives child birth to a male... Lev 12,"The Lord spoke to Moses, saying,“Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."

I agree that we are not living by circumcision, and neither did Abraham, for Abraham was justified by his obedience and trust in Yehwah, and not be a mere circumcision act(Romans 4). Circumcision is a commandment of Yehwah, and if YOU, Trevor, was to have a boy, and do not circumcise him on the 8th day, then you have sinned. And sin is violation of Torah(1 John 3:4).

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Its foolish to say that you agree, then to disagree in the same sentence! If I sin by not circumcising my son, then I am living by the Torah, and not by faith in the blood of JESUS.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

Faith does not negate Torah. Let me give you PAUL'S words.. Romans 3,"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Answer this question: Why were ANY of the laws started in the first place?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

First thing's first, when you bring any nation together, you are to establish a government. Yehwah establised His rule through Torah. Torah was given in the book of Genesis. Yehwah told Noah not to eat blood, because life is in the blood(Genesis 7 & Lev 17). The Israelites were going into a pagan land where they did pagan things. Much of Torah was given to combat these facts, because Israel is to be called a holy nation. I know exactly where this question is going my brother, and im prepared to go that route.

If I say that the Torah was given because of sin, which was one of the reasons(not the main one), then you will say since that is the case, why is there a need for Torah in the new heavens and earth because of sin? That's an honest question, and can be tricky to someone who has no clue at all. What's also interesting is that that question has no support whatsoever in the bible.

What you also miss is that Torah a duality(Duet 30). It contains the blessings of Torah, and the curses of Torah. Which one did Yeshuah hang on the cross with Him? Also, provide SUPPORTING evidence from the scriptures that we will return to a edenlike state where there will be no Torah. I'll just sit back and wait for this one!

[Rev. Eric Culberson Jr.]

Not the main reason!?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Yes, he said "no the main reason"!!!!

JESUS said "which is harder, to forgive sin, or to say rise up and walk", showing that forgiving sin is THE main reason for HIS covenants, but according to James, sin aint that big an issue!