New Covenant Debate.............

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

There has arisen an issue concerning the details of the New Covenant that our LORD and Savior YESHUA/JESUS has won for us by HIS blood and grace. Therefore, we are opening this discussion and starting it off for the edifying of the saints and the settling of the matter:

The subjects for this debate are along two lines:

-Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8: Do we still stand on the Torah?
-the Seal of the New Covenant: Is it still Sabbaths, Feasts, and Circumcision, or do we have a New Seal?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You are twisting my words out of pure ignorance, and have yet to give supporting evidence from Yehwah, Prophets, Yeshuah, and the Apostles that we shall go back to an eden like state without Torah. Will you agree with Paul and say,"keeping Yehwah's Torah is what counts?"

Will you agree with Yehwah when He said,"From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall worship me?"Blessed are they that do the commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life, and entrance into the city."(Rev 22:14).

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

I didn't twist your words, but if you feel that way, then tell us please what was the main reason for all those levitical laws.

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

You have not addressed my questions yet.

[Evangelist Altha Fugett]

provide SUPPORTING evidence from the scriptures that we will return to a edenlike state where there will be no Torah. I'll just sit back and wait for this one!

Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

11

Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


1Cor 13:12

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

We will have no more unanswered questions, no confusion, no ignorance, and no more need to walk by faith rather than by sight.

[James Pierce]

Evan,

I believe you misunderstood my words. The scriptures you posted has nothing to do with what I said.

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

Actually, it does deal with the Edenic state. You missed it though! ;)

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

He doesn't recognize such Evangelist! He swears that he's a Jew in Judea's days! Most who hold such a doctrine try to be what they are not, not recognizing that GOD loves you not because you sliced skin off of your penis, or because today is holier to you than yesterday, but because HE made you in His image.

In Brazil, there are people who every year walk and flog themselves for sins, to show such appreciation to CHRIST's death. A man is know to literally be crucified every year on Passover because he promised that if GOD healed his daughter, he would do it for life. Thats foolishness! This is what People that hold to such doctrines do, thinking that the blood of JESUS was not enough to bring me into the fold of GOD, but that I must bruise my own flesh and observe a certain day, and eat only certain foods to be accepted.

It was Isaiah that said HE was bruised for our transgressions!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The Edenic state is shown CLEARLY in Revelation chapters 21 and 22. Eden was GOD's Kingdom on Earth before sin. GOD will restore what was. Eden was a sinless place, and therefore needed no laws and regulations. Laws are literally, "do's and don'ts". Without a serpent to tempt you to go against GOD's will, and with the love of GOD ruling your heart, what need for laws? Will you kill or steal or cheat if you love one another as JESUS loved you? NO! If not, then why have a regulation still around saying "thou shalt not...."? It would be a joke! Where there is no law against a thing, there is no chance of sinning against a thing.

CATCH THIS REVELATION: The speed limit in NYC streets are an average of 32 mph. Whats the speed limit on the Autobahn in Germany? ANSWER: NONE! If I go 315 kph in Germany on that rode, will I get a ticket for speeding? Why not? Because there is no law against it! Speeding on that road is considered the normal! In fact, if you aren't, they'll look at you funny! Its not lawlessness, but freedom.

Likewise, if I don't have a sinful heart what need for a law against sin? The law is to keep people in line from sinning. Torah laws and Sabbaths will not be needed and are not needed now for these reasons: 1) since sin will not be around anymore, what need of regulation is there? 2) since we will be in a perfected state, what need of teaching is there?

Sabbath observance says we are to come and worship GOD at a set appointed time, but this is truly what GOD is desiring:

-Psalm 34:1 "I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth."
-Psalms 118:29 "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Sabbath observance says that you can go to GOD and petition HIM at a certain time, but this is truly what GOD is desiring:

-2nd Kings 4:23 "And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? it is neither new moon, nor sabbath. And she said, It shall be well."
-Isaiah 1:11-20 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." (GOD could care less about Sabbaths as much as HE cares about people truly loving HIM and each other)


Sabbath observance is to the keeping and telling of seasons and times, and a set day of rest, but this is truly what GOD is desiring:

-Matthew 11:25-30 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

-Revelation 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

The Edenic state is shown CLEARLY in Revelation chapters 21 and 22. Eden was GOD's Kingdom on Earth before sin. GOD will restore what was. Eden was a sinless place, and therefore needed no laws and regulations. Laws are literally, "do's and don'ts". Without a serpent to tempt you to go against GOD's will, and with the love of GOD ruling your heart, what need for laws? Will you kill or steal or cheat if you love one another as JESUS loved you? NO! If not, then why have a regulation still around saying "thou shalt not...."? It would be a joke! Where there is no law against a thing, there is no chance of sinning against a thing.

Revelation Chapters 21-22 truly shows the righteous state of the world when Yeshuah returns. But, you must not forget that the ONLY people that will enter this city is them that do Yehwah's commandments(Rev 22:14). You also must not forget Yehwah's words through the Prophet Isaiah 66,"For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord."

Notice the phrase "new heavens and new earth." It rings a bell in Revelation 21, doesn't it? Revelation 21,"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." Notice John says that the former heavens and earth had passed away. But, where is Torah? According to Yehwah through Isaiah, it will be in the new heavens and the new earth. The Torah does have do's and don'ts, but guess what will be here in the new heavens, and new earth?

Torah without the don'ts, because all flesh shall be perfect, and only doing the do's and blessings of Torah. Yeshuah became the curse of the Torah for us, and therefore its no need to have that part of the Torah. Revelation states that the curse has been lifted. Notice it never says the blessings will be lifted.. Why? Because Torah is forever as it says! You have yet to provide solid evidence stating that Torah will not be here. I have shown you scripture from the Torah, Prophets, and NT stating that Torah will be ongoing, in this age, and in the next. You cannot refute it, so just admit it!

Likewise, if I don't have a sinful heart what need for a law against sin? The law is to keep people in line from sinning. Torah laws and Sabbaths will not be needed and are not needed now for these reasons: 1) since sin will not be around anymore, what need of regulation is there? 2) since we will be in a perfected state, what need of teaching is there?

You have to actually prove that Torah will not be needed from the scriptures itself. You have yet to do that, and I can bet you significant amounts of money that you will not be able to prove to prove it with solid evidence. Torah was to keep us in line, it still is. Sin did not change when Yeshuah came on the scene. Sin has always been violation of Torah.

Let me address your reasons:

1) Sin is violation of Torah(1 John 3:4), and it brings on the curse of Torah(Duet 28). Yeshuah became the curse for us, that we may have life. Rev 21 says that the curse will be lifted. Therefore the only thing that is left of the duality is the blessings for keeping Torah. Therefore, in the new world, we will only be carrying out the blessings of Torah, because no curse will exist. You can read about the duality of the Torah in Duet 30, and you will see that the blessings will only exist.

2) What need of teaching? Well, according to a new covenant decree, man will have no need to teach his neighbor, for all will know Yehwah, and all will keep Torah perfectly. We will not have to fear the curse, for it will be lifted(Rev 21). Scripture, namely, Yehwah our father, teaches that Torah will be the government of the new world. HalleluYAH!

Sabbath observance says we are to come and worship GOD at a set appointed time, but this is truly what GOD is desiring:

That set appointed time is every 7th day, and it shadows the new world to come. It, in hebraic understanding, is a rehearsal of the things we will do in the new creation.

-Psalm 34:1 "I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth."
-Psalms 118:29 "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Sabbath observance says that you can go to GOD and petition HIM at a certain time, but this is truly what GOD is desiring:

There's not one scripture that says the only time we can pray to God at a certain time or appointed day. We can go to Yehwah anytime, even in Torah. This isn't Islam... This is truth! Moses declared in Duet 4,"For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?Did any people ever hear the voice of a god speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and still live? Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, by wonders, and by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by great deeds of terror, all of which the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him."

(GOD could care less about Sabbaths as much as HE cares about people truly loving HIM and each other)

How ignorant of you to say such blasphemy. But, I must say that priorities count more than bringing Torah first. What I mean is that if we obey Yehwah's voice first, and love him, then keeping sabbath, and the rest of Torah would fall in. Well, its gonna be of the new world anyways, so lets continue to rehearse!

I notice that you are using scripture to battle scripture. That is a no no.. Mr. SENIOR PASTOR. You should be a shame of yourself to not rightly handle Yehwah's truth. Rev 21:23 is a great verse, but it does not negate Torah. If Yehwah will be our light, then it is by His light that we shall keep the feast days, and the Torah.. Amen!

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

What question have I not addressed?

[Archbishop Trevor 'Elihu' Greene]

The Book of Revelation is the CLEAREST picture of the New Heaven and New Earth under the New Covenant. NO PLACE in that book can ANYONE find that Torah observance, Sabbath keeping, or the like will be kept. NO PLACE in that book can ANYONE find where lack of circumcision or the like will keep you out of the Kingdom of GOD. The LORD JESUS clearly stated what will keep you out of the Kingdom of GOD in this book.

How about going a few rounds in there to see what was said, after I address the question you said I missed?

[James Pierce]

Trevor,

It is one of the clearest, yes. Rev 22 shows the requirments for entering the city, and the requirement is TORAH.