Hi believers, well, I used to watch Perry Stone's weekly show. I delighted in his teachings on the relevance of the original Hebrew customs just as I delight to hear sincere people anywhere enlighten us to Christ's magnificent truths that was first 'cast to the ground' by the Roman entrance into Christianity and second, carried on to this day by the European/American white religious hierarchies of the world.

Yes, Perry was my man. For the most part, he did not abuse his platform to promote right-wing politics as that which is the 'will of God.' Well, I only started watching him this year so if he had, I wasn't aware of it. Throughout, the months I watched him, I did hear a flicker of right-wing gibberish here and there, but for the most part, I thought he did an excellent job in using 21 minutes to teach on the Bible before using the last 9 to pimp the cost of his videos. Yes, he peeked our curiosity with 'bits of the truth' then told us if we wanted to learn more of the Word of God's Hebrew ancient relevance we'd have to pay for it. Such is life!

Within the last month or so, I have had to altogether stop watching both, Perry Stone and Jack Van Impe. Their fangs are out, and it's against none other than our beloved President Obama. Oh, and now, according to 'Perry Stone, It's also against blacks who voted for him. Yes, Molech, Obama and Black People' was the topic of his 7/26/09 rebroadcast shown on the Christian Television Network.

it seems, Blacks are impoverished because we supported Obama. We are not Christ-like according to the racist, demented mindset of these crippled, blind, bigots. According to Perry, Obama signed a bill that would support 'worldwide' abortion. I doubt if the bill was signed to do that and would love to hear Obama's side of the signing in of this bill.

Well, anyway, that's where Molech comes in. He had a big statue of Molech on his television show. Yes, just bought a big old evil Idol statue and put it on his make-shift stage platform. He then explained that during ancient Biblical history 'Molech' was the 'false idol' that the evil masses sacrificed their children upon which of course, wrought the wrath of God. He's right ofcourse, according to the Bible that's exactly what happened and should have happened to any people who purposely slaughter their children in the name of a false idol. (Lev. 18:21; 29:2-5).

Perry declared that when Obama signed this bill in question, it was tantemaunt to 'throwing children to the fire of Molech.' Yeah, no kidding, he really is warped enough to believe such nonsense. For the record, there is no government forced abortion in America. Obama nor any righteous person advocates women aborting their babies. No 'throwing the babies to the Idol Molech' can compare to what those people did in the Bible Nor is it right to twist Scripture to make it seem that 'one is promoting Molech' and baby killing. It is wrong. It is sniful. It is evil to do such a thing simply because one doesn't agree with the idiotic stance of the Christian right when it comes to resolving the issue of abortion.

For the record, I pray women will keep their babies and know God will provide a way for them if they call on Him. I do, I sincerely do. God bless the babies in the womb.

Anyway, there is more than one way to resolve the issue of abortion. The way to end abortion is to do a mass out reach to women who are committing abortions. It is NOT to curse people who vote Democrat and believe the issue of abortion can be resolved OTHER ways. It is the Christian right who has failed to utilize those other common sense ways and instead chose to unleash a spirit of 'hate' upon Democrats who will not warp their mindset to see things the way the Christian right perceives them.

Yes, it is the leadership of the so-called Christian Right who are the real 'evil' in the land, in as much as they decided to use the issue of 'abortion' as a political football to entice their masses to vote Republican. They have sinned greatly before God as they took a 'demonic' stand and unleashed it as the only way to resolve the matter of 'abortion.' Where's there outreach to women? Why not bombard the television and radio airwaves with truths' of God's love for women and the baby in the womb instead of 'hate Democrats' because they are 'liberal' and want abortion to remain on the books? Why not call out the women who are freely carrying on in this matter? They are the ones who will have to answer to God for committing abortions. The Christian should be addressing women and not a political party who they don't like. God's wrath is upon the Christian right for not taking some of those millions they get and building 'baby towns' where mothers can go to live and get schooling and job opportunities in order to take care of their babies.. Etc.

Dear people, do not let the 'satanic' stance of the Christian right deceive you. For that is what they are, 'deceivers.' At least, with regard to this issue. Christ is not a Republican or Democrat. Christ did not call us to put our faith in a political system. Indeed, throughout the Bible the religious, and political systems are denounced by Christ. Whereas the Republicans and their filthy mouthpieces with the likes of Rush Limbaugh are 'blessed' by the so-called Christian right as the answer to all America's woes, the bulk of which the Republicans brought about.

This is why many of my posts denounce the so-called Christian right and their wicked, ungodly, political stance that has wrought the death of our soldiers who were illegally sent into Iraq/Old Babylon to build it up for the Anti-Christ. At least, that's what Perry, Jack Van Impe, and that ridiculous Hal Lindsay have been preaching for decades. It's now a historical fact, Bush/Cheney and the Right wing in these end-times, lied and deceived in order to build up Old Babylon as the economic headquarters of the soon coming Anti-Christ. This blatant glaring truth is never, do you hear me righteous people, NEVER spoken against by the Christian Right.

However, Obama has been blasted subtly and now overtly ever since he took office. Well, spiritual warfare consists of fighting our enemies where they aim at us. The Christian Right is the one that is using 'politics' as a weapon to promote their right-wing satanic hate. We true believers must then counter it by using ''the truth of God's word to show up their 'political' deceit.

Perry in mad, deceit, decried every believer who voted for Obama. Correction, every 'BLACK' believer who voted for Obama. He said, nothing to the millions of whites who voted for him. He inferred, we voted because Obama was black. Well, not exactly, we voted because we were horrified at Bush/Cheney and the Katrina catastrophe. We were horrified at the open attack on the Middle Class that was causing blacks to lose jobs. We voted for Obama because he declared he would get our beloved soldiers, too many of them African/American, out of Old Babylon/Iraq that Perry and the other speakers all say will be the 'economic headquarters' of the Anti-Christ. We voted for this intelligent, sincere, man who spoke upon 'change' and when blacks saw that whites were willing to give him a chance, we voted enmasse for this black man and his beautiful black wife and daughters. You betcha' we did. We voted, and in so doing, prinicpalities of white hatred was hurled to the ground. We a people whose ancestors' were slaves could do no other in the eyes of a Just and Mighty God who alone, pulled this miracle off. Oh, yeah, Praise God we voted! Praise God, Obama won!

Nonetheless, according to Perry Stone, 'we African/Americans are 'bad.' We are not of God.' In this case, he strongly decried the 'poverty' among blacks as a result of us voting for 'bad Obama.' Bad Obama did not out of a spirit of satanic greed, bring this country to near economic collaspe, rather bad Bush/Cheney and the right wing did this evil of which Perry did not rail against.

Bush/Cheney went after the middle class to altogether alleviate it. God's word repeatedly states that 'he is the father of the poor, widows, orphans, working class i.e. wage earner,' and to attack them is to attack God. This is what the Republicans did during their eight year reign and the Christian Right blessed this 'evil' before God, Yet anything Obama does to straighten it out, is cursed as anti-Christ. Naw, their not racist. That's sarcasm, ofcourse.

Listen, unfortunately the church has not dealt with the demonic spirit of racism that is entrenched in the heart, soul, mind and spirit of white America, or at least, the bulk of them. Perry doesn't realize that his stance is that of an arrogant, hell-bent fool when it comes to politics. He's of the madness of the Christian right. They are not 'right', they are 'wrong' and the god of this world has blinded them to the madness about them.

I was flipping the channels last week and dared to stop to hear the mad mutterings of Hal Lindsay. He actually, with a satanic glaze proclaimed that 'Liberals look at he, and his republican brothers like Rush Limbaugh and dare to call them racists, when they are not racist, rather, the Liberals are.' Well, In the first place, 'liberals' aren't the only ones to look upon their racist nature for what it is. Whew! See what madness has overtaken them?

God has turned them over to a reprobate mind because they refuse to yield to the truth. Instead, it is none other than the Christian right who unleashed this division in America when they wrongly took their 'hard-core' stance via making abortion a political football, in order to pimp right-wing politics.

It is therefore incumbent upon believers to speak against their madness lest their twisted voices be raised to do more satanic damage than they have done in the last 8 years. Again, there has been little to NO condemnation of Bush/Cheney and the Republicans who murdered our beloved soldiers when they illegally sent them in to build up the Iraq/Babylon economic center for their soon coming anti-Christ. If anything, that's offering 'our children to the fire of Molech"

Yet, Obama signed a bill, of which we all should wait and hear Obama's and the Democrat's reasoning as I am sure it is sound and was not designed to 'slaughter the unborn' to that big old Molech Idol that Perry convenienly got his hands upon. Obama is about elevating all the masses. The Republicans were/are about elevating the rich at the expense of the masses. The Republicans are responsible for the millions who lost their jobs. As we follow the news, we see, people are so broken by it that there is now an increase in mothers and fathers killing their children and themselves. Perry nor the right wing would never, ever rightly blame the Republicans nor denounce their 'white' followers as 'bad' or 'anti-Christ' or 'not of God' for voting for all this evil unleashed by Bush and the Republicans.

Yet, our beloved President has barely held the reigns of power 6 months and Perry Stone is now using his show to promote 'hate' for Obama and dare accuse black people who voted for him to be 'out of the will of God.' He is mad, satanically mad.

Yes, wrath is coming upon America, for sure, unfortunately our beloved country with good opportunies has been decimated by the Bush administration. They sold America to these foreign enemies who have sinisterly brought in their army. I, once heard John Hagee proclaim, 'you have probably shaken hands with a terrorist and don't know it,' meaning, that's how many Bush/Cheney administration allowed to come in here. Yes, for love of a dollar, those satanic possessed, greedy males would sell this entire country to foreigners.

All these Republican evils are blessed by the Perry Stones, and other poor, deceived souls of the Christian Right. As so, we must withstand their madness. As anyone in their right mind could see, Perry was waaaaaaay out of control. They are mixed up and deceived to the core. They use Scripture, NO, they 'abuse' Scripture in order to promote their madness. Black people as you can see, that madness is getting waaaaaaaay out of control as this man, Perry Stone has decided that his right-wing warped mind is right ergo, we BLACKS ARE DECEIVED AND NOT OF GOD.

This arrogant, wrong, defiant stance if continued could very well lead to a race war. It will break up the black churches with good sense, from this white barbaric false church mentality that is deceived and deceiving. I'm telling you, Perry Stone openly declared his warped stance as 'right' and as so, blacks who voted for Obama are now seen as the enemy.

The answer is to 'cry aloud and spare not' in order to show up their satanic lunacy for what it is. Such a dangerous disposition must be destroyed. People please comprehend that this is a very dangerous 'racial' stance this foolish man and the Christian right has taken. We, as blacks, must counterattack as if we don't, it will very much lead to 'division' for no one in their right mind is going to agree with Perry and the Christian Right's outlook on the matter of Obama and abortion. They are wrong! They always were! They went about this matter via promoting hatred of 'liberals', 'democrats' and any and all who refused to buy into their mad stance as the only way to deal with abortion. Now look where their evil mindset has come to, 'open attack' on black people and Obama.

This hateful stance could lead to one of their nutcase followers seeking to hurt our dear President. It could and probably already has begun to lead to 'division' and 'racial tension.' The Bible says, ' there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof leads to death'. This 'leads to death' way is the mindset of arrogant, self-righteous, ignorant Christian right leaders with the likes of Perry Stone. I reitierate, it is a real dangerous disposition that Black clergy must arise, unite and denounce. The weapon of our warfare is 'truth'.' Speak the truth against the Christian Right's hypocrisy as it will demolish them and save lives.

Black people, Perry, who I once adored, showed his true face and it was stenched and entrenched with the demonic spirit of white racism of which he hurled against 'we black people' who RIGHTLY voted for Obama. People wake-up!
'And you shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free' Let's let it this time, let's full-force unite and let it!

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The funny thing about killing: in the Bible, the nations waged war all the time. Israel just so happened to be one of those nations. GOD Himself actually commanded Israel to go and fight, hence the term "the LORD of Hosts". We say "thou shalt not kill", but thats not what the commandment said at all. It said "thou shalt not murder", and yes there is a difference between murdering someone and fighting a war.
Ms Elaine:

Thanks for the info! It was a long read, but worth it even though I do not believe in the pre-trib doctrine. This is my response to all the information that you placed up there:


WHY I BELIEVE THE POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE
by Apostle-Elect Trevor T. Greene

I myself was originally raised within a Church that taught pre-tribulation doctrine, and therefore, I totally understand all the scriptures presented. The Church I was in was dynamic, and I agreed with almost everything they taught; however, one of the few areas I did not agree with is the issue of the Rapture of the Church. I won't stand here and say all that disagree with concerning pre-trib, mid-trib, or anything like that; rather, I will bare evidence of what I believe. According to Apostle Peter, we are to always be ready to give an account for our faith, and here I am.

One comment made that sets it off and stands out to me is this:

"One thing that pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib rapture folks all have in common....they all believe that the Lord Jesus is coming back soon! However the 'blessed hope' is only for those who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. The other views unfortunately, are all waiting for the anti-christ and not the Lord Jesus Christ. They have lost their blessed hope! The other views are robbers to the Christian as they seek to steal from the believer the imminent, soon, unknown, time & hope of the rapture."


Yes we all do believe that our LORD and Saviour is soon to return, but to say that the blessed hope only belongs to one particular group, and to say that the others are waiting or Anti-Christ and not CHRIST JESUS is actually a wreckless statement. This statement is contradicting and highly insulting. One minute it says that we are all waiting for JESUS, the next it says that only one group is waiting for HIM, and the rest aren't. Though I do not agree with all the other doctrines concerning the Rapture, I commend my brothers for at least caring about when HE will return! No matter what doctrine you adhere to, the point is you are saying "JESUS is coming back soon! Repent before its too late!" The only difference between us all is simply one word: TIMING. Belief in timing will be the key to survival and the strengthener of your faith. I will go into this matter later. This statement goes on to say:

"Another thing the other views have in common. They all viciously attack the pre-tribulation rapture. The goal is to disprove the pre-tribulation rapture at all costs. Each of the views contradict and disprove each other but they are all strangely united in their attack of the pre-tribulation rapture.

The attacks have confused many Christians and caused some to forsake all prophecy. What a sad thing to happen! Prophecy is a blessing and it should be studied as about 1/4 of the Bible deals with prophecy in some way. Jesus rebuked the people of His day for not recognizing what was written by the Old Testament Prophets. They should have recognized all the prophecies related to the Messiah. Today we are living in the days before the Second Coming of Jesus. How much more should we study and be encouraged by the sure Word of prophecy in these troublesome days.
"

Again, this is a wreckless statement. This says "I am right and you all are heretics." This is not Christian love at all, but an occultist mentality. This can at the extreme, say that you who believe other wise are not saved and have no faith in the LORD JESUS, when the truth is all doctrines are REALLY saying to each other "My brother, though you are a firm believer in CHRIST, I suggest you clear up this one area of your doctrine." None of these doctrines have stopped the flow of studying Prophesy. Quite the opposite, the debates have sparked greater studies. I hear of more people getting into Eschatology because of this.

The miss understanding is the fact that the Church is not separate from Israel at all. On the contrary, the Church of the LORD JESUS Christ are counted as Jews by faith:

Romans 2:25-29 "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Romans 11:11-36 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

We have this Idea that the Church is separate because it is full of Gentiles, and Israel are the Jews. This is a total error, because the Church was started by the Apostles an the hundreds of Jewish believers. All throughout the beginning of the book of Acts, there is not one Gentile believer until Peter witnessed a Gentile receive the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT. People think that the Hebrews were the only nation to leave from Egypt to the promised land, but such was not the case.

Exodus 12:37-38 "And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle."

With all the mixed multitude, they are all still counted as the nation of Israel. Such is the same in today's time. Israel, as Christians, are our family. We are not separate at all; we are grafted in. Keep such an understanding in mind when we discuss the Rapture.

In the OT, there are typologies for everything that happened already, and that which is to come, including the Rapture of the Saints: Lot's escape from Sodom; the Great Exodus; the flood of Noah; and so on. The great Exodus is one of the best examples of the Rapture from OT standpoint. When the plagues on Egypt were sent down, Israel did not suffer such plagues. Goshen was the place of their habitation, and it was left unharmed by GOD. However, Goshen was chosen for them long before they had troubles in Egypt. Scholars would have this be a type of rapture already, but they were in bondage even while they were in Goshen! If this were the rapture, then the Israelites would have been moved there without stress from Egypt. The fact is, Israel was there to see the wrath of GOD and the Pharaoh hardship on them, but Israel was unaffected by GOD's wrath. Its is specifically stated "But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." (Exodus 11:7).

When Israel was rescued, they were to stay inside the homes with the keeping of the first Passover. This great drama that Anti-Christ will be like the Exodus with Pharaoh of Egypt: We will be here to see the drama that Pharaoh will bring on us. Such drama will come because of the blessings of the LORD on HIS people Israel and the Church of GOD in CHRIST. Like the Exodus, the Church/Israel will be oppressed by Anti-Christ; like the Exodus, the Church/Israel will be backed into a corner and attacked; like the Exodus, the Church/Israel will be rescued because of their faith and faithfulness. Post-trib theology says that there will be one more major "Passover". The LORD will make a difference between us and the world. The parable of the LORD said let the wheat and the tares grow together, and when it is harvest time, gather the wheat, and destroy the tares. We preach that like you can' tell the difference between wheat and tares, but that is false. If you couldn't tell the difference, then how could they have known that tares were planted in the first place?

Matthew 24-25 speak of two different time frames all in one long prophetic utterance: the last days of this generation (chapter 24), and the millennial reign of CHRIST (chapter 25). In chapter 24, there is every indication of post-tribulation. The LORD Himself mentioned nothing of us being removed from the drama coming towards GOD's people. The wrath of GOD is to be poured out on the wicked; the wrath of the anti-Christ is to be poured out on the Church/Israel. There will be an attempt at deceiving the saints of GOD (Matthew 24:4-14), the anti-Christ will be revealed to the saints and there will be a great tribulation brought by him(Matthew 24:15-22), and he will try to deceive even the very elect saints of GOD (Matthew 24:22-25). It is in Matthew 24:31 that we see the Rapture of the saints, which coincides with 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17:

Matthew 24:31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Hi again Trevor, yes, how right you are about the 'self-righteousness' of the author of the 'pre-trib' message when it comes to his 'fierce combatant' stance on those who are 'mid-trib/post trib.' What is going on with that faction of so-called believers but the same thing that is going on with Perry Stone, and his ill-reasoning.

Listen, as I stated when I posted the 'pre-trib' facts. I decided to simply 'google' pre-trib facts already compiled. I thought is simpler than going through the tons of material I have saved. I had no idea that I would find such fierce antagonism going on in the so-called Christian world. Believe you me, that was the kindest of the pre-trib links. The others were more brutal than this. They spewed all that venom and, like you said, 'contradicted themselves' amidst doing so. It was solely after all that. that he then presented the 'Word of God'. Amazing, eh?

So again, I totally agree with you with regard to their contradicting ignorance. Whether we are pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture we are all still brothers and sisters. No harm, no foul, if, as I KNOW, we are 'pre-trib' just more rejoicing when we get to heaven, and maybe a few kid-ful, but loving, 'I told you so' but then, on that great day, whose going to argue, 'no, I wanna go back until the post?'

The important thing is that in discussing prophecy we are glorifying our Heavenly Father. This isn't turning anyone away from God rather, it very well could be amazing them of all the dynamic truths within the word of God. So my motto is, 'blessed are you my brother who is 'post-trib' believer, and blessed am I, who is a pre-trib believer.' The key word is 'believers' who lift up our Heavenly Father, and our Savior, Yahshua.

Now,, that said, let's talk about this Israel. Yes, as you well know, Israel always consisted of a mixed multitude of African-Hamite/Egyptians, Cushites, etc., whom Israel intermarried with prior to, and after, going into the Egypt which the Bible refers to as the 'Land of Ham' (Gen. 10:6-7; Ex. 1:5; Ps. 78:51; 105:22,27; 106:21-22; Ps. 7:1 heading/Cush/Kush the Benjamite; etc.).

Remember, Hagar the African-Khemite/Hamite Egyptian who bore Abraham, Ishmael (Gen. 16:3; Ps. 105:22,27)? Abraham who preceded Moses was presented to the Pharaoh of his era, and he gave Abraham Egyptian servants who became a part of the Hebrew nation (Gen. 12:15-16).

As well, other Kushite factions became a part of the vast number that were led out of Egypt and became their descendants (Ex. 12:37-38; Ps. 7:heading; Zeph. 1:1, Jer. 36:14; etc.). They went down a total of 70 and came out over 600,000 (Ex. 1:5; 12:37-38).

Again, the Bible tells us that they multiplied through intermarriage with the African-Hamite/Khemite/Egyptians descendants of Ham via his son, Mizraim (Gen. 10:6; 50:11). The Bible makes mention of an "Egyptian father and his Israelite wife" that existed during the Exodus travels. (Lev. 24:10). So verifying the many marriages that took place between these Hebrews and Egyptians.

So you are right, about the Israelite nation. We know the matriarch of the Jewish line was the African-Canaanite or Cushite woman Tamar dwelling among the Canaanites (Gen. 10:6; 38). She is the mother of the original Jewish line. So you say, 'mixed multitude' of the original African-Hebrews? Yeah, you betcha'! This was done so God could show the world that it is not the 'person' of men rather the 'God' of the Hebrews that is the important thing. He wasn't elevating Israel because of their stock, color and appearance. He was elevating them because of the faith of Abraham. It would be this line through which our blessed Messiah would come through. This was/is the importance of Israel. Almighty God our Redeemer came through this line in order to redeem 'all' of fallen humanity. That's what makes this Israel a 'special' people, that, and nothing more. To God be the Glory!

However, we know that disobedience caused many to perish during the Exodus wilderness experience. In this way God's wrath was able to come upon them. In the coming pre-tribulation Rapture, no wrath of God is coming upon believers. We are not appointed to wrath. We are the 'bride of Christ' whereas Israel the conglomerated nation is a different entity (Rev. 21:2-9..


This is the case, for we know, though the church was full of Jewish Apostles, converts, etc., it was the Jewish hierarchy that persecuted them (Acts 4,7-8, etc.) It was the 'separate' entity known as the Jewish religious, judicial, and political hierarchies who persecuted the church of Jesus Christ. Not to mention, had Jesus killed. This is why Yahshua told 'them' 'they would not see him again until they acknowledged him.' Also, Scripture says, 'they' this faction of Jews, different from the believers, 'shall look upon him who 'THEY' have pierced' (Zeph. 12:10). Elsewhere it says, 'they shall inquire, where did you get those piercings? And He shall reply, 'in the house of my friends.' Well, it's obvious that 'we' believers wouldn't be asking that, for we already know. It has to be the redeemed but unlearned to the in-depth spiritual matters 'Israel' and others who are saved during the tribulation. The church isn't around to teach them, so they will inquire when they get to heaven or during the Millinieum. But I digress.

Anyway, the hierarchal leaders did not accept Christ and ostracized and tried to kill the Israelite believers, both Jew and Gentile.

A funny thing about this, is that the 'gentiles' are considered the Romans and Greeks (Acts 10:34). Whereas, the Africans are considered a part of Israel or close kinship as they were already leaders in the church. There was Simeon called Niger (the Nigerian), Lucius, of Cyrene, Africa (Acts 13:1). Ofcourse, there was Yahshua's disciple Simon the CANAANITE, of the line of Ham, the African father of Canaan (Matt. 10:4; Gen. 10:6). They seem so intermeshed with the nation of Israel that they are seemingly spoken of as one entity. They are dwelling amidst Israel whereas it is strictly the Romans and Greeks who the Jews in Jerusalem proclaim they have no 'affiliation' with (Acts 10:28).

I saw a show once that showed modern day Canaanites relegated to, what looked like 'ghetto' section of Jerusalem. They referred to themselves as descendants of Canaan and were black in appearance. As black as any African on the planet. They said, 'their descendants had always existed over there in Israel. Well, you and I know for a fact that that is true for Israel never drove all of them out (Judgs. 1; etc.) .Would you comment on this truthful, healing matters that could set many a black captive free from a 'Wille Lynch' mentality?

In the Romans Scripture you quoted, Paul speaks of Israel as a 'grafted out' separate entity from the believers. They were grafted out because of unbelief just as today they are grafted out because of unbelief. However, as Paul says, they are still God's special people and will through much 'left-behind' tribulation come to finally realize that Yahshua is the only Messiah.

The 'grafted out' separate Israel are they, who will make the contract with the Anti-Christ NOT the church of Jesus Christ for we believe in our Savior (Dn. 9:24). This same faction of Israelites will be they whose eyes will be opened after 3/1/2 years to the deception of the false prophet and Anti-Christ. Then it is THEY who will be persecuted and as Yahshua says, have to run to the hills for saftety (Matt. 24: 15). They, NOT the true believers for we are in heaven during this 7 year tribulation receiving our new name, judgment and rewards (Rev. 19). Afterall, the Bible says, when Yahshua returns, he will return with the 'saints' 10,000 times 10.000 riding on white horses or spaceships, eh? I don't know. (Rev.

Revelation also says to the 'alive' heaven dwelling apostles and saints, 'let heaven, and God's people, prophets and apostles who are already existing in heaven to be exulted over the punishment God is bringing on the wicked inhabitants of the Earth (Rev. 18:20).

Not to mention the fact that the Bible directly speaks on 2 resurrections (Rev. 20:4-6). So showing that a Israel faction other than the church will be on Earth and itis they, along with people out of all nations who were not rapture will remain on Earth, and through much suffering, die and be resurrected. Whereas, the church which is comprised of people out of all nations of the world, escapes this evil and is already before the throne of God (Rev. 4: 6-9). That's two different group of beings.

Also, remember Scripture says that the 'angels will preach the gospel to the inhabitants on the Earth.'
Why? Because the true preachers are now in heaven with our Lord and Savior.

Oh, one more thing, you quoted the Exodus as the sign of the end-time post tribulation rapture disposition. However, Yahshua did NOT. Rather, Yahshua likened the end-time pre-tribulation rapture to the days of 'Lot and Noah' of which both were first removed from the wrath, then the wrath came (Lk. 17:28-29). I reitierate, "Lot and Noah" were in this regard 'raptured' before the evil struck and so will the true church be raptured and escape the tribulation (Lk. 17:28-29).

Okay, I'll let you digest this portion of my answer before going on as Lord knows, it's a lot of food for thought.
Ms. Elaine:

It truly is a shame how many people would attack fellow saints for this doctrine. This is not a doctrine that you can base one's salvation on (as far as I can tell), but one that says clearly "Its not a matter of IF the LORD is coming, but WHEN is HE coming?"

Now, regarding your statement:"We are the 'bride of Christ' whereas Israel the conglomerated nation is a different entity (Rev. 21:2-9)".

I disagree with this. Though New Jerusalem was fully mentioned and described, the nation of Israel was not mentioned after the return of CHRIST/Rapture within the Book of Revelation. It only speaks of "GOD's people". The term Israel means "Prince of GOD", so with that understanding, we are all "the nation of the Prince of GOD", just as Apostle Paul said "for there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female". NT scripture talks of the the Church being the Bride of Christ, while OT scripture says this between the marriage of GOD and Israel:

-Isaiah 54:5 "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called."
-Jeremiah 3:14 "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"
-Hosea 2:16 "And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi (meaning HUSBAND); and shalt call me no more Baali."

So what is this saying? Is the FATHER married to Israel, and CHRIST married to us? No not at all. The OT prophetic words were speaking of Christ all along marrying Israel. If therefore, the Church is the Bride of Christ, then the Church has to be apart of Israel, for there is no other bride for GOD mentioned. To say that we are a separate entity is "replacement theology", which is actually a heresy. Remember, we are grafted in, we did not replace Israel at all.

You also said:

"This is the case, for we know, though the church was full of Jewish Apostles, converts, etc., it was the Jewish hierarchy that persecuted them (Acts 4,7-8, etc.) It was the 'separate' entity known as the Jewish religious, judicial, and political hierarchies who persecuted the church of Jesus Christ. Not to mention, had Jesus killed. This is why Yahshua told 'them' 'they would not see him again until they acknowledged him.' Also, Scripture says, 'they' this faction of Jews, different from the believers, 'shall look upon him who 'THEY' have pierced' (Zeph. 12:10). Elsewhere it says, 'they shall inquire, where did you get those piercings? And He shall reply, 'in the house of my friends.' Well, it's obvious that 'we' believers wouldn't be asking that, for we already know. It has to be the redeemed but unlearned to the in-depth spiritual matters 'Israel' and others who are saved during the tribulation. The church isn't around to teach them, so they will inquire when they get to heaven or during the Millennium. But I digress."

Though this for a majority is true, the Jews will be taught both now, and in the Millennial reign of CHRIST. I disagree that the CHURCH will be separated from Israel during the time of tribulation on the Earth. Many Jews regard Christians as their best (and only) friends. I remember once I was wearing my Tallit (prayer shawl) around my neighborhood, a few Jews stopped me. One man stepped up to me grabbed my Tallit and kissed it. He then asked me "Are you Jewish?" I said "Yes, I'm Christian". He said "of you are Christian!??!" with a big smile. He said to me "you are my brother" and kissed me on the cheek. I saluted him and the rest saying Shalom Aleichem, and we all went our separate ways. Not all of Israel rejected Christ you know.

As for Anti-Christ prophecy, you said:

"In the Romans Scripture you quoted, Paul speaks of Israel as a 'grafted out' separate entity from the believers. They were grafted out because of unbelief just as today they are grafted out because of unbelief. However, as Paul says, they are still God's special people and will through much 'left-behind' tribulation come to finally realize that Yahshua is the only Messiah. The 'grafted out' separate Israel are they, who will make the contract with the Anti-Christ NOT the church of Jesus Christ for we believe in our Savior (Dn. 9:24). This same faction of Israelites will be they whose eyes will be opened after 3/1/2 years to the deception of the false prophet and Anti-Christ. Then it is THEY who will be persecuted and as Yahshua says, have to run to the hills for saftety (Matt. 24: 15). They, NOT the true believers for we are in heaven during this 7 year tribulation receiving our new name, judgment and rewards (Rev. 19). Afterall, the Bible says, when Yahshua returns, he will return with the 'saints' 10,000 times 10.000 riding on white horses or spaceships, eh? I don't know."


Where does it say that Anti-Christ will make a covenant with Israel for peace? For years people have taught this with no sufficient evidence. I just read Daniel and it said that the anti-Christ will make a covenant "with many". It never said anything about Israel. When you mentioned Matthew 24:15, can you please explain exactly when in that period of JESUS' prophecy does the Church make her grand exit like in the Left Behind Series (a quite enjoyable series, no matter how inaccurate it is)? No where in Matthew 24 did JESUS gave a clue as to us getting air-lifted outta here before anti-Christ showed his ugly face; no where did it say that Israel would be left without the Church; no where did it say that Israel would make a peace treaty with the son of Satan himself. I just can't find it. These are all speculations and traditional anti-Semitic Pentecostal doctrine.

Revelation 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

This is a MAJOR indication that we will still be here for the tribulation to come. The second resurrection that you mentioned has nothing to do with the tribulation. The second one is after the Millennial Reign, on Judgment Day (Revelation 20).

True, JESUS did not use the Exodus as an example. OK then, lets use Noah and Lot then:

-Did Sodom and Gomorrah get a second chance once Lot left the city?
-Di the people get a last chance to enter the Ark after GOD closed it behind Noah?
-Were there any righteous left in Sodom to warn the people?
-Were any believers left outside the Ark of safety to warn the people?
-Since the days of Noah are a type of the Rapture, how many "Raptures" happened during Noah's day? One or two?
-Since the days of Lot are a type of the Rapture, how many "Raptures" happened during Lots's day? One or two?

I have no problem with people believing for a pre-trib rapture except two:

1) I learned it before and after careful study, I don't see evidence of it in scripture...
2) Both "Pre" and "Mid" trib theology not only leave our older brother Israel hanging in the drama, but they do not prepare us for the menace coming our way.

If I am wrong, I will be one of those guys saying "My bad! I messed up AHAHAH!" However, I'm not wrong, then whatwe have to be ready for the greatest battle of our lives, the greatest drama history has ever seen, or to put it like how the LORD Himself said:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." - Matthew 24-21-22

For the unprepared's sake, hope that I'm wrong, but I'm sure that I'm not..............
Trevor let me say this before I get started, you're an apostle and pastor and so much more in Christ. This board has been graced by God Himself who introduced us to you. I, personally am blessed and enriched as I seek out your posts just to spiritually feed me.

I need to get that out there for as we discuss/debate this ONE and ONLY issue that we DISAGREE upon, I think even in the disagreement with regard to our 'pre-trib rapture (I'm right) vs. post-trib rapture (you're wrong), the point is, we both believe in the RAPTURE of the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST!

We both lift up our Savior Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father and would have whosover will to call upon HIm for Yahshua alone, can save 'all' from going to the depths of Hell.

We both preach, shout, tell, speak, etc., that, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" (Jn. 3:16).

We both KNOW that 'if any and all will confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, they shall be saved" (Romans 10:9).

That is the ultimate 'unity' i.e. 'one' that our Messiah prayed we would 'walk in' and so we do, and so we do, my friend, to the Glory of our God! (Jn. 17:20),

===========================

NOW, TREVOR STATED: "Now, regarding your statement:"We are the 'bride of Christ' whereas Israel the conglomerated nation is a different entity (Rev. 21:2-9)".

I disagree with this. Though New Jerusalem was fully mentioned and described, the nation of Israel was not mentioned after the return of CHRIST/Rapture within the Book of Revelation. It only speaks of "GOD's people". The term Israel means "Prince of GOD", so with that understanding, we are all "the nation of the Prince of GOD", just as Apostle Paul said "for there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female". NT scripture talks of the the Church being the Bride of Christ, while OT scripture says this between the marriage of GOD and Israel:

-Isaiah 54:5 "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called."
-Jeremiah 3:14 "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"
-Hosea 2:16 "And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi (meaning HUSBAND); and shalt call me no more Baali."

So what is this saying? Is the FATHER married to Israel, and CHRIST married to us? No not at all. The OT prophetic words were speaking of Christ all along marrying Israel. If therefore, the Church is the Bride of Christ, then the Church has to be apart of Israel, for there is no other bride for GOD mentioned. To say that we are a separate entity is "replacement theology", which is actually a heresy. Remember, we are grafted in, we did not replace Israel at all.

=====================

MY REPLY: Okay, good points. Nonetheless, here we go. Yes, we are the 'spiritual' Israel and all that it stood for. However, more importantly,, we are a part of the Heavenly Zion. We are the righteousness of God on Earth. As such, the better question should then be, who are those 'secular' Jews of the Jewish hierarchy and their followers? Are they a part of the literal Israel? Yes and NO. What I mean is, those who will be redeemed among them are apart of Israel whereas Revelation states, "I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews but are not , but are a synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9). They are unredeemable for they, in the last days, are of the false prophet (Rev. 13:11-22).

Revelation 3:9 states :Indeed, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and are not but lie, indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.."

Trevor it seems Yahshua himself, is the one who is separating two factions of Jews/Israel. The believing Jews of which the church was originally comprised of, versus these 'fake' Jews who Yahshua says are 'of Satan.' Note, I did not say a third faction, 'chosen unbelieving Jews' for some will come to believe after the church is taken out. The 144,000 for one thing (Rev. 7:4; 14:1-3). He 'seals' them while on EARTH. He does NOT seal the church for the church is NOT on Earth to seal nor, does our total equate to 144,000.

As well, my dear friend, check this out, Revelation tells us that on the Heavenly walls or gates are the names of the 12 tribes as well as, the name of the 12 apostles (21:12, 14). Uh-huh, yeah that's what it says Trevor, 'two-factions', 'one people' yeah, sumptin''s going on. Well, to be exact, let's just say, God is NOT married to two Israels rather there are two-fold happenings of church believers versus Israel's blindness that Paul speaks about (Rom. 11:25). Again, a 'Left-behind tribulation' group who will become believers.

===========================

TREVOR STATED: "Where does it say that Anti-Christ will make a covenant with Israel for peace? For years people have taught this with no sufficient evidence. I just read Daniel and it said that the anti-Christ will make a covenant "with many". It never said anything about Israel. When you mentioned Matthew 24:15, can you please explain exactly when in that period of JESUS' prophecy does the Church make her grand exit like in the Left Behind Series (a quite enjoyable series, no matter how inaccurate it is)? No where in Matthew 24 did JESUS gave a clue as to us getting air-lifted outta here before anti-Christ showed his ugly face; no where did it say that Israel would be left without the Church; no where did it say that Israel would make a peace treaty with the son of Satan himself. I just can't find it. These are all speculations and traditional anti-Semitic Pentecostal doctrine.

Revelation 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

This is a MAJOR indication that we will still be here for the tribulation to come. The second resurrection that you mentioned has nothing to do with the tribulation. The second one is after the Millennial Reign, on Judgment Day (Revelation 20).

True, JESUS did not use the Exodus as an example. OK then, lets use Noah and Lot then:

-Did Sodom and Gomorrah get a second chance once Lot left the city?
-Di the people get a last chance to enter the Ark after GOD closed it behind Noah?
-Were there any righteous left in Sodom to warn the people?
-Were any believers left outside the Ark of safety to warn the people?
-Since the days of Noah are a type of the Rapture, how many "Raptures" happened during Noah's day? One or two?
-Since the days of Lot are a type of the Rapture, how many "Raptures" happened during Lots's day? One or two?

I have no problem with people believing for a pre-trib rapture except two:

1) I learned it before and after careful study, I don't see evidence of it in scripture...
2) Both "Pre" and "Mid" trib theology not only leave our older brother Israel hanging in the drama, but they do not prepare us for the menace coming our way.

If I am wrong, I will be one of those guys saying "My bad! I messed up AHAHAH!" However, I'm not wrong, then whatwe have to be ready for the greatest battle of our lives, the greatest drama history has ever seen, or to put it like how the LORD Himself said:

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." - Matthew 24-21-22

For the unprepared's sake, hope that I'm wrong, but I'm sure that I'm not..............."

==========================

MY REPLY: Oh, I knew you'd get me on that 'second resurrection' but later for that.

We know the Anti-Christ will make a 'covenant' with Israel because the Bible says, 'he will go into the Temple's 'Holy of Holies' and proclaim himself God.' This is the 'abomination that causes desolation of which Yahshua spoke upon (Matt. 24:15).

Matt. 24:15 is Yahshua Himself quoting the prophet Daniel with regard to 'Left Behind' Israel for the Archangel proclaimed, "70 weeks are determined for YOUR PEOPLE and YOUR CITY" (Dn. 9:24).

That 'CITY' is Jerusalem, not Milwaukee, Wisconsin, New York, New York, Worschire England, Ngabi, Guyana, Ontario, Canada, homosexualhatredofwomen Saudi Arabia, put-5-year-old-girls-in brothels-Latin American cities rather, it is JERUSALEM.

Oh, NOTE THIS, as for the "Left Behind" get rich novels, I had in the early 90's altogether stopped following 'Evangelical' media to the point that I did NOT even know of the "Left Behind" series of books until the 21st century. I have yet to read a single one of the 'get rich' series. I doubt I ever will as I am into Bible REALITY not FICTION.


At any rate, the Bible says, 'he shall make a covenant with many' (Dn. 9:27). That many is not only the hierarchies of the nations of the world but also it is the Jewish hierarhies of that tribulation day. We know this is true for Scripture right after that states, '... but in the middle of the week (3/1/2 yrs.) he shall bring an end to the sacrifices and offerings....and makes desolate...." (Dn. 9:27).

First of all, who is it that is 'sacrificing and offering' goats, sheeps, etc.? Certainly NOT the Christian believers. Rather, it is the Israeli priesthood hierarchies. Oh, and don't say the 'sacrificing and offering' is just 'praise of the saints' for we need no Temple to 'sacrifice and praise' within for we know 'we are the Temple of the Living God' (1 Cor. 3:16-17),

Also, that the Anti-Christ will 'go into the holy of holies' and commit the 'desolation that causes abomination' shows that the Temple is up and running in Jerusalem (Matt. 24:15).

Anyway, yes the ugly Anti-Christ will make a covenant or agreement with the Israel of that day. He then will break it and go into the holy of holies and proclaim himself God. It is after that ungodly abomination that 'all hell will break loose' (2 Thess. 2:4). You see, the existing Jews of that day will according to Scripture, realize that 'they have been deceived' for they KNOW this much of Torah, that the Messiah is the 'Son of God' and Not God Himself.

Remember when Herod inquired about the coming Messiah? The religious hierarchies knew the city, hour, etc. when He would appear (Matt. 2:3-7). Yes, they have great knowledge of the Messiah, they just refused to accept the one and only Messiah, Yahshua Hamashiach.


As for your statement, "Nowhere in Matthew 24 does it say..." Well, come on now Trevor, you're an apostle. You KNOW that the Bible is like a jigsaw puzzle. It's all over the place and one has to allow the Holy Spirit to put it together. Afterall, nowhere in Daniel does it say, Yahshua's name but we know His name is Yahshua now don't we. Bottom line, prophecy is from Genesis to Revelation, even the Song of Solomon.

=========================

TREVOR QUOTED: "You also said:

"This is the case, for we know, though the church was full of Jewish Apostles, converts, etc., it was the Jewish hierarchy that persecuted them (Acts 4,7-8, etc.) It was the 'separate' entity known as the Jewish religious, judicial, and political hierarchies who persecuted the church of Jesus Christ. Not to mention, had Jesus killed. This is why Yahshua told 'them' 'they would not see him again until they acknowledged him.' Also, Scripture says, 'they' this faction of Jews, different from the believers, 'shall look upon him who 'THEY' have pierced' (Zeph. 12:10). Elsewhere it says, 'they shall inquire, where did you get those piercings? And He shall reply, 'in the house of my friends.' Well, it's obvious that 'we' believers wouldn't be asking that, for we already know. It has to be the redeemed but unlearned to the in-depth spiritual matters 'Israel' and others who are saved during the tribulation. The church isn't around to teach them, so they will inquire when they get to heaven or during the Millennium. But I digress."

TREVOR REPLIED: "Though this for a majority is true, the Jews will be taught both now, and in the Millennial reign of CHRIST. I disagree that the CHURCH will be separated from Israel during the time of tribulation on the Earth. Many Jews regard Christians as their best (and only) friends. I remember once I was wearing my Tallit (prayer shawl) around my neighborhood, a few Jews stopped me. One man stepped up to me grabbed my Tallit and kissed it. He then asked me "Are you Jewish?" I said "Yes, I'm Christian". He said "of you are Christian!??!" with a big smile. He said to me "you are my brother" and kissed me on the cheek. I saluted him and the rest saying Shalom Aleichem, and we all went our separate ways. Not all of Israel rejected Christ you know."

------------------------------------

MY REPLY: That's a touching and beautiful story but facts are facts and there will be a left-behind group of Jews and beings out of every nation on earth. They will through their own bloodshed face the Anti-Christ and prevail in the sense that 'they' will lay down their lives. Scripture tells us so. (Rev.
7:14).

As for the two resurrections, what I was meaning to infer and obviously didn't get across very well is this, Scripture says, 'Blessed are ye who are partakers of the rapture, er, I mean, first resurrection as the second resurrection has no affect upon' (Rev. 20:5-6).


Oh, one final point, as for the "Lot/Noah" comment, the point Yahshua was making was 'saved from wrath/judgment' (Lk. 17:28-29). In those cases, NO Treovr, there wasn't a 'second redemption' if you will. That wasn't Yahshua's point. His point was this Trevor, PRE-TRIUBLATION RAPTURE!!!!

Nonetheless, Yahshua is the Messiah! Praise Him! Amen?
Ms. Elaine:

You yourself have been a blessing to me. Its no coincidence that the HOLY GHOST told me to teach my people about Eschatology. This is not only good fellowship (online at least), but it opens up my mind to bring out material that I may have forgotten to give them.

Now, you said:

"I think even in the disagreement with regard to our 'pre-trib rapture (I'm right) vs. post-trib rapture (you're wrong), the point is, we both believe in the RAPTURE of the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST!"

AHAHAHAHHAHA!! You're right here about one thing, we are both waiting for HIM to come, we just disagree about what time He'll arrive.
You also said:

Okay, good points. Nonetheless, here we go. Yes, we are the 'spiritual' Israel and all that it stood for. However, more importantly,, we are a part of the Heavenly Zion. We are the righteousness of God on Earth. As such, the better question should then be, who are those 'secular' Jews of the Jewish hierarchy and their followers? Are they a part of the literal Israel? Yes and NO. What I mean is, those who will be redeemed among them are apart of Israel whereas Revelation states, "I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews but are not , but are a synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9). They are unredeemable for they, in the last days, are of the false prophet (Rev. 13:11-22).

Revelation 3:9 states: Indeed, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and are not but lie, indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you."


No problem here. I may have worded it differently, but I agree.


You also said:

"Trevor it seems Yahshua himself, is the one who is separating two factions of Jews/Israel. The believing Jews of which the church was originally comprised of, versus these 'fake' Jews who Yahshua says are 'of Satan.' Note, I did not say a third faction, 'chosen unbelieving Jews' for some will come to believe after the church is taken out. The 144,000 for one thing (Rev. 7:4; 14:1-3). He 'seals' them while on EARTH. He does NOT seal the church for the church is NOT on Earth to seal nor, does our total equate to 144,000.

As well, my dear friend, check this out, Revelation tells us that on the Heavenly walls or gates are the names of the 12 tribes as well as, the name of the 12 apostles (21:12, 14). Uh-huh, yeah that's what it says Trevor, 'two-factions', 'one people' yeah, sumptin''s going on. Well, to be exact, let's just say, God is NOT married to two Israels rather there are two-fold happenings of church believers versus Israel's blindness that Paul speaks about (Rom. 11:25). Again, a 'Left-behind tribulation' group who will become believers.
"

Now here is where it gets interesting! For starters, we the Church ARE sealed here on Earth! Have you missed the very point of the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT? Apostle Paul said:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." - Ephesians 4:30
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," - Ephesians 1:13

Apostle Paul was not speaking to the Church of tomorrow, but to the believers right there. All covenants had a seal. Circumcisions, blood sacrifices, and water baptisms were seals of the OT. The Baptism of the HOLY GHOST is all 3 in one for the N.T.

Also Unless I missed something here, those scriptures you mentioned do not speak of a left behind group at all.


You also said:

"We know the Anti-Christ will make a 'covenant' with Israel because the Bible says, 'he will go into the Temple's 'Holy of Holies' and proclaim himself God.' This is the 'abomination that causes desolation of which Yahshua spoke upon (Matt. 24:15).

Matt. 24:15 is Yahshua Himself quoting the prophet Daniel with regard to 'Left Behind' Israel for the Archangel proclaimed, "70 weeks are determined for YOUR PEOPLE and YOUR CITY" (Dn. 9:24).

That 'CITY' is Jerusalem, not Milwaukee, Wisconsin, New York, New York, Worschire England, Ngabi, Guyana, Ontario, Canada, homosexualhatredofwomen Saudi Arabia, put-5-year-old-girls-in brothels-Latin American cities rather, it is JERUSALEM.

Oh, NOTE THIS, as for the "Left Behind" get rich novels, I had in the early 90's altogether stopped following 'Evangelical' media to the point that I did NOT even know of the "Left Behind" series of books until the 21st century. I have yet to read a single one of the 'get rich' series. I doubt I ever will as I am into Bible REALITY not FICTION.
"

The Abomination of Desolation was first fulfilled by a man that many have grown to know and study. His name rings bells among the great leaders of ancient history: Antiochus IV Epiphanes. While Antiochus was busy in Egypt, a false rumor spread that he had been killed. The deposed High Priest Jason gathered a force of 1,000 soldiers and made a surprise attack on the city of Jerusalem. An official Antiochus appointed as High Priest, Menelaus, was forced to flee Jerusalem during a riot. On the King's return from Egypt in 167 BC enraged by his defeat, he attacked Jerusalem and restored Menelaus, then executed many Jews.

When these happenings were reported to the king, he thought that Judea was in revolt. Raging like a wild animal, he set out from Egypt and took Jerusalem by storm. He ordered his soldiers to cut down without mercy those whom they met and to slay those who took refuge in their houses. There was a massacre of young and old, a killing of women and children, a slaughter of virgins and infants. In the space of three days, eighty thousand were lost, forty thousand meeting a violent death, and the same number being sold into slavery.” -2 Maccabees 5:11-14

To consolidate his empire and strengthen his hold over the region, Antiochus decided to Hellenize the Jews by outlawing Judaism and by ordering the worship of Zeus as the supreme god. This was anathema to the Jews and when they refused, Antiochus sent an army to enforce his decree. Because of the resistance, the city was destroyed, many were slaughtered, and a military Greek citadel called the Acra was established.

Not long after this the king sent an Athenian senator to force the Jews to abandon the customs of their ancestors and live no longer by the laws of God; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested...They also brought into the temple things that were forbidden, so that the altar was covered with abominable offerings prohibited by the laws. A man could not keep the sabbath or celebrate the traditional feasts, nor even admit that he was a Jew. At the suggestion of the citizens of Ptolemais, a decree was issued ordering the neighboring Greek cities to act in the same way against the Jews: oblige them to partake of the sacrifices, and put to death those who would not consent to adopt the customs of the Greeks. It was obvious, therefore, that disaster impended. Thus, two women who were arrested for having circumcised their children were publicly paraded about the city with their babies hanging at their breasts and then thrown down from the top of the city wall. Others, who had assembled in nearby caves to observe the sabbath in secret, were betrayed to Philip and all burned to death.”- 2 Maccabees 6:1-11


These things aren't know to Western (Protestant) Christians like you and me simply because they believe (FALSELY) that the Bible should only have 66 books in our Canon, thus robbing the saints of MUCH vital info! So you see, no peace treaty was made with the Abomination of Desolation. Rome thugged their way in and killed off many! Likewise, no scriptures said that the Jews would make a covenant with the anti-Christ at all.


You also said:

"At any rate, the Bible says, 'he shall make a covenant with many' (Dn. 9:27). That many is not only the hierarchies of the nations of the world but also it is the Jewish hierarhies of that tribulation day. We know this is true for Scripture right after that states, '... but in the middle of the week (3/1/2 yrs.) he shall bring an end to the sacrifices and offerings....and makes desolate...." (Dn. 9:27).

First of all, who is it that is 'sacrificing and offering' goats, sheeps, etc.? Certainly NOT the Christian believers. Rather, it is the Israeli priesthood hierarchies. Oh, and don't say the 'sacrificing and offering' is just 'praise of the saints' for we need no Temple to 'sacrifice and praise' within for we know 'we are the Temple of the Living God' (1 Cor. 3:16-17),

Also, that the Anti-Christ will 'go into the holy of holies' and commit the 'desolation that causes abomination' shows that the Temple is up and running in Jerusalem (Matt. 24:15).
"

Once again, Antiochus did just that! He ended the Sabbaths, he violated the Temple, but the Jews NEVER made such a covenant with him. I agree that the Temple may be up and running at that time, because the Jews have already traced the lineage of the Levites and are preparing them for Temple sacrifice. However, the Apostle Paul said "know ye not that YOU are the temple of GOD?" Look at the 501(c)3! Its designed to silence the Church! Church leaders don't even know that they don't even need a 501(c)3 to be legally recognized as a Church by our own Constitutional right! This doesn't just mean that the anti-Christ will try to come against Israel, but he's going to attack Christianity like many have done before him; only this time, it will be on a scale that only Christ Himself will be able to stop! People are alreardy out there trying to silence the Church left and right. In fact, I seen on TV the other day that Homeland Security has deemed people that study Eschatology as HOMEGROWN TERRORISTS! This attack is starting right now because the spirit of anti-Chirst is running crazy against us right now.


You also said:

"Anyway, yes the ugly Anti-Christ will make a covenant or agreement with the Israel of that day. He then will break it and go into the holy of holies and proclaim himself God. It is after that ungodly abomination that 'all hell will break loose' (2 Thess. 2:4). You see, the existing Jews of that day will according to Scripture, realize that 'they have been deceived' for they KNOW this much of Torah, that the Messiah is the 'Son of God' and Not God Himself.

Remember when Herod inquired about the coming Messiah? The religious hierarchies knew the city, hour, etc. when He would appear (Matt. 2:3-7). Yes, they have great knowledge of the Messiah, they just refused to accept the one and only Messiah, Yahshua Hamashiach.

As for your statement, "Nowhere in Matthew 24 does it say..." Well, come on now Trevor, you're an apostle. You KNOW that the Bible is like a jigsaw puzzle. It's all over the place and one has to allow the Holy Spirit to put it together. Afterall, nowhere in Daniel does it say, Yahshua's name but we know His name is Yahshua now don't we. Bottom line, prophecy is from Genesis to Revelation, even the Song of Solomon.
"

Again, where in scripture does it even hint at Israel making a covenant with the Anti-Christ? I promise you, its not there! And about JESUS not being GOD, ummmm, not only I but the scriptures itself disagree with that one! I'm not a Oneness, but I know that JESUS is not only the Son of GOD, but also GOD. The FATHER is GOD, but that doesn't mean that JESUS isn't GOD:

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
TREVOR STATED: "You yourself have been a blessing to me. Its no coincidence that the HOLY GHOST told me to teach my people about Eschatology. This is not only good fellowship (online at least), but it opens up my mind to bring out material that I may have forgotten to give them."

========================

MY REPLY: Thank you, I am blessed indeed, when an Apostle such as you proclaims it so. I receive it, in the name of Yahshua.
Yes, I've always thought that we as believers should use this Internet to lift up Yahshua while we can. We can as well unite and call down the power of God to help us and our nation. I literally believe the Spirit of God is on this board and if we continue in prayer and unity, people can be saved, healed and delivered via this Internet connection. Let us 'all' continue to daily pray to this end. To the Glory of God!
======================


TREVOR STATED: "Now here is where it gets interesting! For starters, we the Church ARE sealed here on Earth! Have you missed the very point of the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT? Apostle Paul said:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." - Ephesians 4:30
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," - Ephesians 1:13

Apostle Paul was not speaking to the Church of tomorrow, but to the believers right there. All covenants had a seal. Circumcisions, blood sacrifices, and water baptisms were seals of the OT. The Baptism of the HOLY GHOST is all 3 in one for the N.T.

Also Unless I missed something here, those scriptures you mentioned do not speak of a left behind group at all."

==========================

MY REPLY: Excellent, counterpoints, truly. Still, there is so much evidence within the very Hebrew customs which 'all' represented the life, death, resurrection, pre-trib rapture, and Second coming of our Savior.

Here's a key element between our two dispositions. You know when you spoke of the Exodus? You spoke upon how God is more or less 'going to make a distinction' amidst the horror of the tribulation of which you believe we will go through. I , too, believe in the 'Exodus' end-time experience. I just believe God will make a distinction NOW even as we see all these end-time prophecies coming to pass. Wars, and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, evil men waxing worse and worse...etc.

I see the a 'church without spot or wrinkle' coming forth NOW before the tribulation, and I pray to this end, as I know you do as well. I see Daniel's prophecy of 'doing exploits' as happening right before the rapture whereas you see it happening all throughout the tribulation.

In this respect, we both are hearing the same facts from the Holy Spirit, it's just the timing of such events that we are seeing a 7 yr. difference. Another Scripture that Daniel speaks on is the 'believers trials.' Scripture says, 'some of those who understand will fall, and be thrown into the fire but, this will be only to 'refine, cleanse and purify such until the 'time of the end' (Dn. 11:35). The 'time of the end' is the second coming and not the rapture. They are two separate happenings.

Now, if as you say, we are sealed and therefore will escape the wrath as we go through the 7 yr. triublation, how then can we be 'thrown into the fire, refined and purified' as Scripture proclaims? In other words, these occurrences must either happen pre- trib rapture or, it must happen to a 'left behind' people who are they who alone will be here until the 'time of the end' which is the Second Coming where Yahshua's feet touch the mount of olives.

========================

TREVOR STATED: "The Abomination of Desolation was first fulfilled by a man that many have grown to know and study. His name rings bells among the great leaders of ancient history: Antiochus IV Epiphanes. While Antiochus was busy in Egypt, a false rumor spread that he had been killed. The deposed High Priest Jason gathered a force of 1,000 soldiers and made a surprise attack on the city of Jerusalem. An official Antiochus appointed as High Priest, Menelaus, was forced to flee Jerusalem during a riot. On the King's return from Egypt in 167 BC enraged by his defeat, he attacked Jerusalem and restored Menelaus, then executed many Jews.

“When these happenings were reported to the king, he thought that Judea was in revolt. Raging like a wild animal, he set out from Egypt and took Jerusalem by storm. He ordered his soldiers to cut down without mercy those whom they met and to slay those who took refuge in their houses There was a massacre of young and old, a killing of women and children, a slaughter of virgins and infants. In the space of three days, eighty thousand were lost, forty thousand meeting a violent death, and the same number being sold into slavery.” -2 Maccabees 5:11-14

To consolidate his empire and strengthen his hold over the region, Antiochus decided to Hellenize the Jews by outlawing Judaism and by ordering the worship of Zeus as the supreme god. This was anathema to the Jews and when they refused, Antiochus sent an army to enforce his decree. Because of the resistance, the city was destroyed, many were slaughtered, and a military Greek citadel called the Acra was established.

“Not long after this the king sent an Athenian senator to force the Jews to abandon the customs of their ancestors and live no longer by the laws of God; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested...They also brought into the temple things that were forbidden, so that the altar was covered with abominable offerings prohibited by the laws. A man could not keep the sabbath or celebrate the traditional feasts, nor even admit that he was a Jew. At the suggestion of the citizens of Ptolemais, a decree was issued ordering the neighboring Greek cities to act in the same way against the Jews: oblige them to partake of the sacrifices, and put to death those who would not consent to adopt the customs of the Greeks. It was obvious, therefore, that disaster impended. Thus, two women who were arrested for having circumcised their children were publicly paraded about the city with their babies hanging at their breasts and then thrown down from the top of the city wall. Others, who had assembled in nearby caves to observe the sabbath in secret, were betrayed to Philip and all burned to death.”- 2 Maccabees 6:1-11


These things aren't know to Western (Protestant) Christians like you and me simply because they believe (FALSELY) that the Bible should only have 66 books in our Canon, thus robbing the saints of MUCH vital info! So you see, no peace treaty was made with the Abomination of Desolation. Rome thugged their way in and killed off many! Likewise, no scriptures said that the Jews would make a covenant with the anti-Christ at all.

=========================

MY REPLY: Yes, I've read the book of the Maccabees and other 'lost books of the Bible.' Let me first digress and say this, the Bible says, 'Timothy's father was a Greek and his mother a Israelite (Acts 16:1). I think he is descended from this enviroment of Hellenized Jews because remember Peter said, 'it was unlawful for Jews to affiliate with gentiles' (Acts 10:28). Here again, two different sects of Jews. The Jerusalem Jews who were not Hellenized of which Peter and the apostles were of, and, whom Jesus came unto (Jn. 1: 11). versus the 'left behind' sect of Jews, if you will, who did not have the honor of knowing Jesus while on Earth. Rather, they came into the fold on Pentacost after Yahshua had already returned to heaven (Acts 2). Ah, good one, eh? :-)

As for the 'abomination that causes desolation' yes, that was one of the forerunners of the ultimate 'abomination that causes desolation'. However, remember the Bible says, the end-time Anti-Christ, man of sin, himself will commit the ultimate 'desolation that causes abomination' in the end-time, when he goes into the prophesied rebuilt Temple's "Holy of Holies' and proclaims himself "God Almighty" (2 Thess. 2:3-4).

Ofcourse, as you know Paul spoke this centuries after Anthiochus Epiphanes, did the unspeakable blasphemies that he did, so showing that Yahshua like Paul, was speaking of the end-time ultimate 'abomination that causes desolation.'
==========================


TREVOR STATED: Once again, Antiochus did just that! He ended the Sabbaths, he violated the Temple, but the Jews NEVER made such a covenant with him. I agree that the Temple may be up and running at that time, because the Jews have already traced the lineage of the Levites and are preparing them for Temple sacrifice. However, the Apostle Paul said "know ye not that YOU are the temple of GOD?" Look at the 501(c)3! Its designed to silence the Church! Church leaders don't even know that they don't even need a 501(c)3 to be legally recognized as a Church by our own Constitutional right! This doesn't just mean that the anti-Christ will try to come against Israel, but he's going to attack Christianity like many have done before him; only this time, it will be on a scale that only Christ Himself will be able to stop! People are alreardy out there trying to silence the Church left and right. In fact, I seen on TV the other day that Homeland Security has deemed people that study Eschatology as HOMEGROWN TERRORISTS! This attack is starting right now because the spirit of anti-Chirst is running crazy against us right now.

==========================

MY REPLY: Revelation speaks of the 'false prophet' who causes 'all' to take the mark, lest they will not be able to 'buy or sell'. The economic market will be controlled by the Zionist faction just as in many ways it is right now. So you see, that 'all' includes Israel of whom many among them will also take the mark (Rev. 11:13-20).

Daniel says, the anti-Christ will break the 'covenant' or agreement. Now, remember in all these matters though yes, all the nation's hierarchies will sign the covenant Satan's fury is after Israel and the Jews of whom Yahshua the Messiah came through and defeated him.

As such, oh definitely the whole battle points to Israel, and their hierarchies will take the mark just as the Jewish hierarchies in Biblical days, for among other things love of prestige, had Yahshua killed.

Indeed, after the 3/1/2 yrs. he breaks the covenant, goes into the Holy of Holies, and proclaims himself God, 'it is the abomination that causes desolation' because the Jewish religious hierarchy knows that their 'expected Messiah' is the 'Son of God' and not 'God Himself.' Oh, and ofcourse, Yahshua is God, I know that, you know that, but what I meant was, the 'expected' Messiah or Redeemer to Israel is the 'Son of God' come down to redeem them (Isa. 53; etc.). Thus, they recognize the evil of what this Anti-Christ proclaims and so the desolation is wrought. In other words, this Anti-Christ proclaims, he is 'Almighty God' and there is no other.

===========================

TREVOR STATED: "Now, I noticed that there is a problem here with the word "tribulation". As a Post-Trib person, I define the words differently than you apparently When I say post-tribulation, I'm talking about the drama that the anti-christ will bring to us, not the drama that CHRIST will bring to them. We will not be in the drama that GOD will pour out on them, but we will be here for the drama that the Anti-Christ will bring on us first according to scriptures.

Nevertheless, whenever HE comes, the point is YESHUA/JESUS is the Messiah/Christ: AMEN!

===========================

MY REPLY: See here's the thing though, how can you say 'we will not be in the drama that God will pour out on them" when Scripture says, "the rivers will turn red with blood" so that there is no drinking water, fish stinking up the place (if according to you, we are here, we will smell it, just like them). Eartquakes, and the sun not shining so that darkness comes at noonday, etc." (Rev. 8-10). .

As for the Anti-Christ pouring out 'wrath' upon us, that would contradict Scripture that says, 'we are not appointed to wrath.'
At any rate, I found another more gracious link that better answers why I believe in pre-tribulation. It's entitled:

16 PROOFS OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

Click on the link and check it out:

http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html

In all these matters we say, 'Even so, come Lord Jesus!'
True, the LORD sometimes spoke in parables, however, HE specifically said that HE speaks in parables to the people, but to HIS Apostles HE spoke/speaks plainly. The pre-rapture doctrine is not found in Matthew 24, where HE clearly describes the events; its not there in the book of Revelation clearly either. Some say its this verse, others say that verse, but NO ONE can pinpoint exactly where it says:

-Israel will make the covenant with anti-Christ
-when the Church will be raptured

Now, I noticed that there is a problem here with the word "tribulation". As a Post-Trib person, I define the words differently than you apparently. When I say post-tribulation, I'm talking about the drama that the anti-christ will bring to us, not the drama that CHRIST will bring to them. We will not be in the drama that GOD will pour out on them, but we will be here for the drama that the Anti-Christ will bring on us first according to scriptures.

Nevertheless, whenever HE comes, the point is YESHUA/JESUS is the Messiah/Christ: AMEN!
Its been a little while, but I'm back with my response!!

Ms. Elaine, you said:


"Thank you, I am blessed indeed, when an Apostle such as you proclaims it so. I receive it, in the name of Yahshua.
Yes, I've always thought that we as believers should use this Internet to lift up Yahshua while we can. We can as well unite and call down the power of God to help us and our nation. I literally believe the Spirit of God is on this board and if we continue in prayer and unity, people can be saved, healed and delivered via this Internet connection. Let us 'all' continue to daily pray to this end. To the Glory of God!"


Yes, the Spirit of GOD is on this board, and I'm glad for it!!


You also said:

"Excellent, counterpoints, truly. Still, there is so much evidence within the very Hebrew customs which 'all' represented the life, death, resurrection, pre-trib rapture, and Second coming of our Savior.

Here's a key element between our two dispositions. You know when you spoke of the Exodus? You spoke upon how God is more or less 'going to make a distinction' amidst the horror of the tribulation of which you believe we will go through. I , too, believe in the 'Exodus' end-time experience. I just believe God will make a distinction NOW even as we see all these end-time prophecies coming to pass. Wars, and rumors of wars, earthquakes, pestilences, evil men waxing worse and worse...etc.

I see the a 'church without spot or wrinkle' coming forth NOW before the tribulation, and I pray to this end, as I know you do as well. I see Daniel's prophecy of 'doing exploits' as happening right before the rapture whereas you see it happening all throughout the tribulation.

In this respect, we both are hearing the same facts from the Holy Spirit, it's just the timing of such events that we are seeing a 7 yr. difference. Another Scripture that Daniel speaks on is the 'believers trials.' Scripture says, 'some of those who understand will fall, and be thrown into the fire but, this will be only to 'refine, cleanse and purify such until the 'time of the end' (Dn. 11:35). The 'time of the end' is the second coming and not the rapture. They are two separate happenings.

Now, if as you say, we are sealed and therefore will escape the wrath as we go through the 7 yr. tribulation, how then can we be 'thrown into the fire, refined and purified' as Scripture proclaims? In other words, these occurrences must either happen pre-trib rapture or, it must happen to a 'left behind' people who are they who alone will be here until the 'time of the end' which is the Second Coming where Yahshua's feet touch the mount of olives."


Just because we are raptured, does not mean we are PERFECTED! The Apostle Paul said that when we meet Him in the air we will be with Him (Christ JESUS), if am not mistaken. Well, JESUS is not going back to Heaven at all, but HE's coming down to Earth to rule for a millennium! The pre-rtib rapture traditionally theory says that we are going off to Heaven, when the Bible says that He is establishing His kingdom here on earth! Its been saying that since Eden, and He's not done yet. "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven", remember? In a time of war, the knights would wear the royal Christian seal upon their chest (the cross) so they would confuse each other for the enemy; In Japan, the soldiers would wear a flag sticking up, indicating whom they served and fought for, otherwise everyone looked the same. The seal on us now is to distinguish between those who are to be saved and those whom are to be destroyed in the great war. If there was no need for this, then there would be no need for the seal itself! The seal is the Holy Spirit Himself. The Angelic hosts and the Saints of GOD will know whose who by the seal. This is not for those left behind, but all saints because all saints are required to have the seal (baptism) of the Holy Spirit. If this weren't true, then Apostles John & Paul wouldn't have been inspired by GOD to say it.

You also said:


"Yes, I've read the book of the Maccabees and other 'lost books of the Bible.' Let me first digress and say this, the Bible says, 'Timothy's father was a Greek and his mother a Israelite (Acts 16:1). I think he is descended from this enviroment of Hellenized Jews because remember Peter said, 'it was unlawful for Jews to affiliate with gentiles' (Acts 10:28). Here again, two different sects of Jews. The Jerusalem Jews who were not Hellenized of which Peter and the apostles were of, and, whom Jesus came unto (Jn. 1: 11). versus the 'left behind' sect of Jews, if you will, who did not have the honor of knowing Jesus while on Earth. Rather, they came into the fold on Pentacost after Yahshua had already returned to heaven (Acts 2). Ah, good one, eh? :-)

As for the 'abomination that causes desolation' yes, that was one of the forerunners of the ultimate 'abomination that causes desolation'. However, remember the Bible says, the end-time Anti-Christ, man of sin, himself will commit the ultimate 'desolation that causes abomination' in the end-time, when he goes into the prophesied rebuilt Temple's "Holy of Holies' and proclaims himself "God Almighty" (2 Thess. 2:3-4).

Of course, as you know Paul spoke this centuries after Anthiochus Epiphanes, did the unspeakable blasphemies that he did, so showing that Yahshua like Paul, was speaking of the end-time ultimate 'abomination that causes desolation.'"


I agree with this totally....except for one point. I'm not too sure that the Temple will be rebuilt. I stood 100% on this before, but recent studies have had me second guess this. I'll most likely continue to believe that the Temple will be rebuilt, but again, I'm just checking all angles.

Also, I don't consider those books "lost", rather I consider Protestant Christians totally (and WRONGFULLY) ignorant to them. The Greek Othordox Churches (Ethiopic Church, Church of Jerusalem, ect.) read and fully regard these books as apart of their canon. Protestant don't unfortunately, which is why I'm glad I'm no longer Protestant (more on that one later)! Other than that, we totally agree.


You also said:

"MY REPLY: Revelation speaks of the 'false prophet' who causes 'all' to take the mark, lest they will not be able to 'buy or sell'. The economic market will be controlled by the Zionist faction just as in many ways it is right now. So you see, that 'all' includes Israel of whom many among them will also take the mark (Rev. 11:13-20).

Daniel says, the anti-Christ will break the 'covenant' or agreement. Now, remember in all these matters though yes, all the nation's hierarchies will sign the covenant Satan's fury is after Israel and the Jews of whom Yahshua the Messiah came through and defeated him.

As such, oh definitely the whole battle points to Israel, and their hierarchies will take the mark just as the Jewish hierarchies in Biblical days, for among other things love of prestige, had Yahshua killed.

Indeed, after the 3/1/2 yrs. he breaks the covenant, goes into the Holy of Holies, and proclaims himself God, 'it is the abomination that causes desolation' because the Jewish religious hierarchy knows that their 'expected Messiah' is the 'Son of God' and not 'God Himself.' Oh, and ofcourse, Yahshua is God, I know that, you know that, but what I meant was, the 'expected' Messiah or Redeemer to Israel is the 'Son of God' come down to redeem them (Isa. 53; etc.). Thus, they recognize the evil of what this Anti-Christ proclaims and so the desolation is wrought. In other words, this Anti-Christ proclaims, he is 'Almighty God' and there is no other."


HOLD UP, HOLD UP, HOLD UP...ZIONIST FACTION!?!?? We definitely disagree there!! I am in support of the Zionists, because they are for retaking Jerusalem for the Jews. The Zionists do not control the world economy, the Bankers do! Take a gander at these names and see if Zionists have anything to do with them:

-Rothschild
-Rockefeller
-Wauberg
-Morgan
-Bush
-Bin Laden
-Amadinagad (I don't know if I spelled that right)
-The Vatican
-Illuminati
-The Bildeberg Group

These are the names that are effecting the world's economic and political scene. The Zionists are not within this list, for almost all of them are against the Jews as a whole, and Zionists in particular. Zionists are after the Temple Mount and Israel for Jews, not to control the world's money.


You also said:

"See here's the thing though, how can you say 'we will not be in the drama that God will pour out on them" when Scripture says, "the rivers will turn red with blood" so that there is no drinking water, fish stinking up the place (if according to you, we are here, we will smell it, just like them). Earthquakes, and the sun not shining so that darkness comes at noonday, etc." (Rev. 8-10).

As for the Anti-Christ pouring out 'wrath' upon us, that would contradict Scripture that says, 'we are not appointed to wrath.'
At any rate, I found another more gracious link that better answers why I believe in pre-tribulation. It's entitled:

16 PROOFS OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

Click on the link and check it out:

http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html

In all these matters we say, 'Even so, come Lord Jesus!'"


The Bible never said that there will be no drinking water on the Earth. The rivers running red with blood is a saying for much warfare and blood shed. Even if that happens literally, in the book of Exodus, the only place preserved during GOD's wrath was the land of Goshen where Jacob dwelled. This is where GOD showed a difference between those who served GOD and those who rejected Him. They saw the evil that fell upon the wicked, and so will we. As for us nor being appointed unto wrath, you have to ask whose wrath that the scripture was talking about.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9). This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the wrath of the enemy upon the saints of GOD. This speaks of the wrath of GOD.

The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. (Psa 58:10)

"A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling". (Psalm 91:7-10)

Have you forgotten the Passover and how GOD delivered them? You say that JESUS didn't use this as an example, but just because HE didn't say it doesn't mean that its not an example. There are many scriptures in the OT that JESUS wasn't seen quoting in the 4 Gospels. Are the 4 Gospels the ONLY things JESUS said and did? Absolutely not!
TREVOR STATED: "Just because we are raptured, does not mean we are PERFECTED! The Apostle Paul said that when we meet Him in the air we will be with Him (Christ JESUS), if am not mistaken. Well, JESUS is not going back to Heaven at all, but HE's coming down to Earth to rule for a millennium! The pre-rtib rapture traditionally theory says that we are going off to Heaven, when the Bible says that He is establishing His kingdom here on earth! Its been saying that since Eden, and He's not done yet. "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven", remember? In a time of war, the knights would wear the royal Christian seal upon their chest (the cross) so they would confuse each other for the enemy; In Japan, the soldiers would wear a flag sticking up, indicating whom they served and fought for, otherwise everyone looked the same. The seal on us now is to distinguish between those who are to be saved and those whom are to be destroyed in the great war. If there was no need for this, then there would be no need for the seal itself! The seal is the Holy Spirit Himself. The Angelic hosts and the Saints of GOD will know whose who by the seal. This is not for those left behind, but all saints because all saints are required to have the seal (baptism) of the Holy Spirit. If this weren't true, then Apostles John & Paul wouldn't have been inspired by GOD to say it.

============================

MY REPLY: Hey Trevor, Praise God, I will always patiently await your replies as I've seen your remarkable discussions all over the board. I know it sometimes takes time to answer all the various topics.

Now, that said, back to the subject matter. Okay firstly, Scripture says, 'we shall know and be known" (1 Cor. 13:12). That's perfection of a 'heavenly sort' in and of itself.. That is, to 'know' or 'remember' 'all' once we are in that Heavenly place where 'all' truth and holiness exists. Albeit, as we are handed our rewards, new names, and all of that, we all will be assigned a heavenly glory according to our works amidst that world of 'perfection' (Rev. 2:17; 14:13; etc.).

Now as for your statement 'Jesus is not going back to Heaven' wow! Yahshua said, "I go to prepare a place for you and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again to receive you that where I am, you may be also" (Jn. 14:3).

Where is Yahshua? He is in Heaven at the Right hand of the Father!
Where is Yahshua's Father's house with the many mansions? This too, is in heaven. (Jn. 14:2).

Elsewhere He says, "because you have kept my commandments I will keep you from the tribulation that will come upon the whole world to test the inhabitants" (Rev. 3:10 REB).

As for the Holy Spirit, as we've discussed, 'the man of sin will not be revealed until the Holy Spirit (OUR SEAL) is taken out (2 Thess. 2:7-8).. Now, as you quoted Scripture says, 'we are sealed until the day of redemption' (Eph. 4:30). As so, we will NOT be UN-SEALED and 'left behind' rather, we will be raptured and taken out with the Holy Spirit. We will meet the Lord in mid-air, go to heaven and there we shall ever be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:17).

Now, I ask you, why would we need to meet the Lord in mid-air, if the Lord is coming down to Earth at that moment?

Oh, and when I say, 'ever be with the Lord' what I mean is Scripture is telling us that we shall ever be of the Heavenly order in as much as the next time the church is heard from we are called the Bride and the army of heaven coming with the Lord at the Second coming (Rev. 19:11-16).

Christ is not in mid-air at this coming, rather, he is riding a white horse and his mision is to smite or kill the nations" (Rev. 19:11-16). Yes, Yahshua is at this time, dangerous, armed, and extremely dangerous!

Who is that 'army' coming out of heaven with him? The once former church who is now 'clothed in white' and armed to do damage with, and for, our God's glory.

===========================


TREVOR STATED: "I agree with this totally....except for one point. I'm not too sure that the Temple will be rebuilt. I stood 100% on this before, but recent studies have had me second guess this. I'll most likely continue to believe that the Temple will be rebuilt, but again, I'm just checking all angles."

----------------------------------------

MY REPLY: How else could he go into the 'holy of holies' and proclaim himself Almighty God but that the Temple is rebuilt?

===========================

TREVOR STATED: "Also, I don't consider those books "lost", rather I consider Protestant Christians totally (and WRONGFULLY) ignorant to them. The Greek Othordox Churches (Ethiopic Church, Church of Jerusalem, ect.) read and fully regard these books as apart of their canon. Protestant don't unfortunately, which is why I'm glad I'm no longer Protestant (more on that one later)! Other than that, we totally agree."

--------------------------------------

MY REPLY: Fair enough, with regard to the "Lost Book" title. Enlightenment, I accept it! Yeah, I see exactly what you are saying too. I actually plan to get a Ethiopian Bible one day as those Christians have a better understanding of the whole Hebraic/Christ relationship. I think its' fascinating and would love if some of the Ethiopian priests who believe in Yahshua came to prominence. I would definitely watch such a one on 'God's TV' wouldn't you?


==========================


TREVOR STATED: "HOLD UP, HOLD UP, HOLD UP...ZIONIST FACTION!?!?? We definitely disagree there!! I am in support of the Zionists, because they are for retaking Jerusalem for the Jews. The Zionists do not control the world economy, the Bankers do! Take a gander at these names and see if Zionists have anything to do with them:

-Rothschild
-Rockefeller
-Wauberg
-Morgan
-Bush
-Bin Laden
-Amadinagad (I don't know if I spelled that right)
-The Vatican
-Illuminati
-The Bildeberg Group

These are the names that are effecting the world's economic and political scene. The Zionists are not within this list, for almost all of them are against the Jews as a whole, and Zionists in particular. Zionists are after the Temple Mount and Israel for Jews, not to control the world's money."

-----------------------------------------

MY REPLY: I'm not speaking 'against' some group because I make a statement saying what they do or do not have power over. Our spirituality is all about the Heavenly Zion. We are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem of which I do. I don't want it run down by those Middle Eastern barbarians whose wicked, wretched hierarchies mean no decent human being any good. Afterall, they are Satan-filled, demoniacs of whom Scripture tells us God himself will destroy (Ezek. 38).

So oh, yes, while I'm aware of the satanic anti-Christ 'power structure' of deceit that you named, the comment you responded to had to do with the 'false prophet' hierarchal wicked factions that Scripture tells us does exist (Rev. 13: 11-20).

I mean, that's like saying, 'wait a minute hold on, don't mention the wicked Jewish Pharisaical/Sadduccee hierarchal factions that had Yahshua killed.' It's just facts, Bible reality that we would be foolish to blind ourselves too. Not that I'm saying each and every member of a hierarchy is evil for look at Nicodemus (Jn. 3).

At any rate, ofcourse, we who are of the truth are pro-Israel for our Savior is a Jew. Our God gave that land to Abraham and his descendants that would come through Jacob/Israel. However, hierarchies are hierarchies. These are they Yahshua wars against and that includes the wicked among the Zionist factions.

Yes, these too have great economic power. Let's face it, many of the bankers, jewelers, and power that be economic influencers? are the Zionists factions. Again, that's not said to insult rather it's just said as a 'fact.' Stop being so sensitive eh? :-)


============================

TREVOR STATED: "The Bible never said that there will be no drinking water on the Earth. The rivers running red with blood is a saying for much warfare and blood shed. Even if that happens literally, in the book of Exodus, the only place preserved during GOD's wrath was the land of Goshen where Jacob dwelled This is where GOD showed a difference between those who served GOD and those who rejected Him. They saw the evil that fell upon the wicked, and so will we. As for us nor being appointed unto wrath, you have to ask whose wrath that the scripture was talking about.

“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9). This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the wrath of the enemy upon the saints of GOD. This speaks of the wrath of GOD.

The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. (Psa 58:10)

"A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling". (Psalm 91:7-10)

Have you forgotten the Passover and how GOD delivered them? You say that JESUS didn't use this as an example, but just because HE didn't say it doesn't mean that its not an example. There are many scriptures in the OT that JESUS wasn't seen quoting in the 4 Gospels. Are the 4 Gospels the ONLY things JESUS said and did? Absolutely not!

===========================

MY REPLY: Ha! with regard to the 'OT and 4 gospels", that was MY point to you in an earlier post! I'm the one who said, 'the Bible is like a Jigsaw' and that the 'Holy Spirit has to teach one. Amidst the Hebraic teachings is a 'pre-trib' rapture. Oh, in an earlier post you mentioned the date of 'enlightenment' with regard to the speaking upon 'pre-trib' rapture. You said, 1800 and something.

Well, that may be the day the message started to go forth but it doesn't mean the pre-trib rapture wasn't always in the Bible. Afterall, lots of things once taught about the Bible have been proven a lie and now enlightenment has come. Just look at the role of women. Look at all the truths coming out with regard to the deceits that some males used to keep women in bondage.

Another example, let's take 'race' or 'ethic colors.' Just look at God enlightenment about the 'black' nations of antiquity. It wasn't always taught. As so, to argue that 'pre-trib' wasn't always talked about' is not a good argument to go on seeing the Bible tells us 'we go from glory to glory.'

Truth crushed to the ground is rising again. A part of that truth is pre-trib rapture.

Finally, I didn't say or mean to infer that, the Bible 'said there would be no drinking water.' What I said was, the Bible speaks of great tribulation, the rivers turning red with blood and as a result, there will be plenty of areas where where there will be no drinking water. (Rev. 8:10; 16:4-7).

16 PROOFS OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

Click on the link and check it out:

http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html

In all these matters we say, 'Even so, come Lord Jesus!'
Grace & Peace Ms Elaine! Time to reply huh? LOL

OK, you said:

"Hey Trevor, Praise God, I will always patiently await your replies as I've seen your remarkable discussions all over the board. I know it sometimes takes time to answer all the various topics.

Now, that said, back to the subject matter. Okay firstly, Scripture says, 'we shall know and be known" (1 Cor. 13:12). That's perfection of a 'heavenly sort' in and of itself.. That is, to 'know' or 'remember' 'all' once we are in that Heavenly place where 'all' truth and holiness exists. Albeit, as we are handed our rewards, new names, and all of that, we all will be assigned a heavenly glory according to our works amidst that world of 'perfection' (Rev. 2:17; 14:13; etc.).

Now as for your statement 'Jesus is not going back to Heaven' wow! Yahshua said, "I go to prepare a place for you and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again to receive you that where I am, you may be also" (Jn. 14:3).

Where is Yahshua? He is in Heaven at the Right hand of the Father!
Where is Yahshua's Father's house with the many mansions? This too, is in heaven. (Jn. 14:2).

Elsewhere He says, "because you have kept my commandments I will keep you from the tribulation that will come upon the whole world to test the inhabitants" (Rev. 3:10 REB).

As for the Holy Spirit, as we've discussed, 'the man of sin will not be revealed until the Holy Spirit (OUR SEAL) is taken out (2 Thess. 2:7-8).. Now, as you quoted Scripture says, 'we are sealed until the day of redemption' (Eph. 4:30). As so, we will NOT be UN-SEALED and 'left behind' rather, we will be raptured and taken out with the Holy Spirit. We will meet the Lord in mid-air, go to heaven and there we shall ever be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:17).

Now, I ask you, why would we need to meet the Lord in mid-air, if the Lord is coming down to Earth at that moment?

Oh, and when I say, 'ever be with the Lord' what I mean is Scripture is telling us that we shall ever be of the Heavenly order in as much as the next time the church is heard from we are called the Bride and the army of heaven coming with the Lord at the Second coming (Rev. 19:11-16).

Christ is not in mid-air at this coming, rather, he is riding a white horse and his mission is to smite or kill the nations" (Rev. 19:11-16). Yes, Yahshua is at this time, dangerous, armed, and extremely dangerous!

Who is that 'army' coming out of heaven with him? The once former church who is now 'clothed in white' and armed to do damage with, and for, our God's glory."


Yea, I do answer a lot of these blogs here on BPN. Some for their doctrinal knowledge that I agree with, others for their small errors, and then there are the pure heretics! Either way, no matter how heated the convo, I try to enjoy it all, because in the end, its all about the glory of GOD our FATHER.

Now, when I said "JESUS is not going back to Heaven', I wasn't talking about right now! He's there now working, sitting at the right hand of the FATHER (and at times coming down here to appear before certain members of His kingdom). I was originally referring to when HE officially returns to start His Millennial Reign. He won't rule over it from Heaven's throne like He's doing now, but He'll do it up close and personal, right here on Earth. Thats the point of His whole return in the first place, to reclaim what was rightfully His. When we are caught up, He'll be the one meeting us there. To say that He's coming again, and then He's coming again a third time isn't exactly accurate. The Bible never gives this indication at all. There was NEVER an O.T. example for this from the Prophets, Priests, and Kings, and no clear cut N.T. word for this from the Apostles. To be caught up in the rapture and taken out of the way of the wrath of GOD doesn't exactly mean that we are going to Heaven for a while. The Army of GOD is a mix of angelic servants and sons. The battle ground is here; the prize is here. GOD is establishing His kingdom on Earth. Its always been His intention. Yes the house that HE prepares for us are up there, but Revelation 21 shows that they are coming down here.

As for the 2nd Thess. 2, this is an interesting matter. I do not believe at all that the HOLY GHOST is going to leave the Earth. The HOLY GHOST is the very Spirit of life. For Him to be removed completely from the Earth would mean that all life would end right then and there. What I understand those verses to mean by saying "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" is this: the HOLY Ghost will step aside and allow for the hardness of their heart to charge themselves as guilty by their own action, and carry them into condemnation. I don't think for one second that the HOLY SPIRIT will leave altogether. You being a "pre-trib-left-behind" doctrine believer truly don't believe that the HOLY SPIRIT will leave either. If He did, then how could the left behind remnant turn to GOD without the HOLY SPIRIT to draw them? Its literally IMPOSSIBLE for a person to come to GOD without the HOLY SPIRIT working in the Earth realm.


You also said:

"How else could he go into the 'holiest of holies' and proclaim himself Almighty God but that the Temple is rebuilt?"

True, the anti-Christ is to do this. On the other hand, I have taken into consideration a "figurative approach", considering the fact that things aren't always what they seem, especially with the Prophetic. What if the place that was spoken of was not the temple, but the very position of a "deity"? The scriptures say this:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." - 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

This speaks not just of the Jewish GOD, but of all gods worshiped by mankind. Remember, there are Muslims, Buddhist, Mormons, and a host of other faiths that the anti-Christ will come and deem himself head of. I truly believe deep in my heart of hearts that this One-World Government will also have a One World Religion: the Masonic Order. Free Masons and Eastern Stars are required to believe in some sort of faith in order to join, and they do not discriminate upon religions. The reason why is because they themselves are a cult that deals with world domination. The world leaders of today are mostly Masons, ESPECIALLY American leaders. It is them that will help the world leaders (LED BY an Obama regeme) in what they've been planning for years: Novus Ordo Seclorum ("A New Order of the Ages")

Now whether the Temple is built or not, thats something I'm almost convinced will happen...ALMOST. But what I am sure of is that the Masonic Order has their grips on the leadership of this world, especially the U.N. and the U.S.S.R. (United States Socialist Republic).


You also said:

"Fair enough, with regard to the "Lost Book" title. Enlightenment, I accept it! Yeah, I see exactly what you are saying too. I actually plan to get a Ethiopian Bible one day as those Christians have a better understanding of the whole Hebraic/Christ relationship. I think its' fascinating and would love if some of the Ethiopian priests who believe in Yahshua came to prominence. I would definitely watch such a one on 'God's TV' wouldn't you?"

Getting an Eastern Orthodox Bible is a good idea. Actually, I was about to purchase one the other day at the Christian book store (didn't have enough funds and I don't do lay-away). Though I am intrigued by their canon of Scripture, I wouldn't readily listen to an Ethiopic Bishop preach. The reason is this: their Patriarch (Pope) acts as a high priest, giving a sacrifice on what they claim to be the original Ark of the Covenant.....yes, THE Ark of the Covenant. The Ethiopian Christians are literally like OT Jews who just found out that JESUS is LORD. They still keep all the old Jewish customs found within Torah.


You also said:

"I'm not speaking 'against' some group because I make a statement saying what they do or do not have power over. Our spirituality is all about the Heavenly Zion. We are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem of which I do. I don't want it run down by those Middle Eastern barbarians whose wicked, wretched hierarchies mean no decent human being any good. Afterall, they are Satan-filled, demoniacs of whom Scripture tells us God himself will destroy (Ezek. 38).

So oh, yes, while I'm aware of the satanic anti-Christ 'power structure' of deceit that you named, the comment you responded to had to do with the 'false prophet' hierarchal wicked factions that Scripture tells us does exist (Rev. 13: 11-20).

I mean, that's like saying, 'wait a minute hold on, don't mention the wicked Jewish Pharisaical/Sadduccee hierarchal factions that had Yahshua killed.' It's just facts, Bible reality that we would be foolish to blind ourselves too. Not that I'm saying each and every member of a hierarchy is evil for look at Nicodemus (Jn. 3).

At any rate, ofcourse, we who are of the truth are pro-Israel for our Savior is a Jew. Our God gave that land to Abraham and his descendants that would come through Jacob/Israel. However, hierarchies are hierarchies. These are they Yahshua wars against and that includes the wicked among the Zionist factions.

Yes, these too have great economic power. Let's face it, many of the bankers, jewelers, and power that be economic influencers? are the Zionists factions. Again, that's not said to insult rather it's just said as a 'fact.' Stop being so sensitive eh? :-)"


True Zionists are like the Zealots of the Biblical days, not he Pharisees. The Zionists are for Jews owning Jerusalem, even if they have to fight to defend it. The jewelery owners, bankers, business men, and corrupt political officials are actually against Zionist issues and movements. This has been a proven fact.


You also said:


"Ha! with regard to the 'OT and 4 gospels", that was MY point to you in an earlier post! I'm the one who said, 'the Bible is like a Jigsaw' and that the 'Holy Spirit has to teach one. Amidst the Hebraic teachings is a 'pre-trib' rapture. Oh, in an earlier post you mentioned the date of 'enlightenment' with regard to the speaking upon 'pre-trib' rapture. You said, 1800 and something.

Well, that may be the day the message started to go forth but it doesn't mean the pre-trib rapture wasn't always in the Bible. Afterall, lots of things once taught about the Bible have been proven a lie and now enlightenment has come. Just look at the role of women. Look at all the truths coming out with regard to the deceits that some males used to keep women in bondage.

Another example, let's take 'race' or 'ethic colors.' Just look at God enlightenment about the 'black' nations of antiquity. It wasn't always taught. As so, to argue that 'pre-trib' wasn't always talked about' is not a good argument to go on seeing the Bible tells us 'we go from glory to glory.'

Truth crushed to the ground is rising again. A part of that truth is pre-trib rapture.

Finally, I didn't say or mean to infer that, the Bible 'said there would be no drinking water.' What I said was, the Bible speaks of great tribulation, the rivers turning red with blood and as a result, there will be plenty of areas where where there will be no drinking water. (Rev. 8:10; 16:4-7).

16 PROOFS OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

Click on the link and check it out:

http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html"


I'm glad you know that the jigsaw thing was your point! Its your own idea coming back to haunt you! LOL Oh yea, I never dated a time that the pre-trib doctrine came about. I believe that was someone else (probably James, because he once said something to that effect in a post before). I don't care when a person discovers the doctrine, so long as they discover it! The restoration of Apostleship isn't that old (but isn't that young either). However, with all that said, the pre-trib doctrine is not rooted within scripture. I'm a person who believes in the Holy Trinity. A Oneness believer can come along and tell me that their doctrine is found all within scripture. They can use all the verses they want, because its not a matter of if the scripture are right, its a matter of revelation/interpretation of scripture. You gave 16 proofs for Pre-trib doctrine. I can probably find 16 in OT, and 16 in NT to prove Post-Trib doctrine. Some take the same Bible I read and say women cannot preach preach or be Apostles/Bishops/Senior Pastors. Again, the scriptures are true, but is your interpretation true? THATS the question..........

Even so, come quickly LORD, be it before, during or after the drama

JUST COME!!!
TREVOR STATED: Yea, I do answer a lot of these blogs here on BPN. Some for their doctrinal knowledge that I agree with, others for their small errors, and then there are the pure heretics! Either way, no matter how heated the convo, I try to enjoy it all, because in the end, its all about the glory of GOD our FATHER.

Now, when I said "JESUS is not going back to Heaven', I wasn't talking about right now! He's there now working, sitting at the right hand of the FATHER (and at times coming down here to appear before certain members of His kingdom). I was originally referring to when HE officially returns to start His Millennial Reign. He won't rule over it from Heaven's throne like He's doing now, but He'll do it up close and personal, right here on Earth. Thats the point of His whole return in the first place, to reclaim what was rightfully His. When we are caught up, He'll be the one meeting us there. To say that He's coming again, and then He's coming again a third time isn't exactly accurate. The Bible never gives this indication at all. There was NEVER an O.T. example for this from the Prophets, Priests, and Kings, and no clear cut N.T. word for this from the Apostles. To be caught up in the rapture and taken out of the way of the wrath of GOD doesn't exactly mean that we are going to Heaven for a while. The Army of GOD is a mix of angelic servants and sons. The battle ground is here; the prize is here. GOD is establishing His kingdom on Earth. Its always been His intention. Yes the house that HE prepares for us are up there, but Revelation 21 shows that they are coming down here.
===========================

MY REPLY: Hey Trevor, I'm so glad that you FIRST delayed as wouldn't you know it but fate found me in the same circumstances that I could not immediately get back to you even though I did get your reply email and meant to immediately reply. My delay was unavoidable sincerely. Nonetheless, it was legitimized by a Apostle doing it first as it comes across as understanding. :-)

Anyway, listen, I understand what you are saying, truly I do. I didn't mean to infer that you were not aware of the 'right hand of the Father' status of Yahshua. Truly I didn't. What I 'wowwed' about was the insinuation that Yahshua could not 'rapture' or 'catch away' or 'hide from the wath to come' a blameless, without spot or wrinkle, bride of Christ' as he said he IS going to do.' (Rev. 19"7-8).

Please understand this, this wedding or banquet is taking place in heaven... We know this is the case for the Bible says thus, "But let HEAVEN exult her; exult God's PEOPLE , apostles and prophets, for he has imposed on her the sentence she passed on you/" (Rev. 18:20).

Again, HEAVEN and the INHABITANTS thereof are being spoken to. Who are the inhabitants thereof? GOD'S PEOPLE, apostles, prophets that are dwelling therein. We verify that this is the case for in chapter 19 of Revelation 'a VAST THRONG dwelling IN HEAVEN is lifting up immense praise to God for his wrath against the evil beings on Earth (Rev. 19:1.2.5).


Oh, and one more thing, I don't necessarily agree with you that the 'army of God is a mixture of the angelic and we the church' for the 'angelic' does not wear 'fine line' or 'righteous acts only the redeemed believers do that (Rev. 19:7).

Okay, that established. we see Yahshua is coming with his redeemed church now called the 'armies of heaven' during, the let us say, 'official' second Coming whereupon His foot will 'touch the mouth of olives' (Zech. 14:4).

It is at this time that the kings, captains, etc. of the Earth shall call for the rocks to 'fall upon them' and hide them from His majestic face (Rev. 19:17-21).


The imperative verse being Revelation 19:5-8 which states: "There came a great voice from the throne saying: 'Praise our God, all you his servants, you that fear him, both small and great. And I heard what sounded like a VAST THRONG, like the sound of a mighty torrent or of great peals of thunder, and THEY cried:
"Hallelujah! The Lord OUR God, Sovereign over all, has entered on his reign! Let US rejoice and shout for joy and pay homage to Him, for the wedding day of the Lamb has come! His BRIDE has made herself ready, and 'SHE HAS BEEN GIVEN' fine linen, shining and clean to wear.
(The fine linen signifies the righteous deeds of God's people). (Rev. 19:5-8 REB)

Now, now, what do we have here but a 'CHURCH' in HEAVEN who HAS BEEN GIVEN, again, NOTE: 'HAS BEEN GIVEN" 'fine linen' or rewards, judgment for the 'righteous deeds' that HAS BEEN ALREADY JUDGED AND REWARDED BY GOD WHILE A CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN.

Your way says, he comes down after tribulation and then rewards but the Bible way says, pre-trib in as much as the BELIEVERS I.E. CHURCH I.E. BRIDE 'HAS' BEEN GIVEN while dwelling in HEAVEN shouting PRAISE AND GLORY, the REWARDS that Christ said we would get for our works.

As well, it is only after this do we see the ARMIES OF 'HEAVEN' the same CHURCH, BIRIDE, BELIEVERS, coming OUT OF HEAVEN with YAHSHUA and now referred to as the ARMIES OF HEAVEN (Rev. 19:14).

We see Yahshua No longer referred to as the Lamb of God rather, He is now the LION WHO MAKES WAR against His enemies on Earth. Again, Yahshua is now dangerous, armed, and extremly dangerous! (Rev. 19:13).

In other words, not only is the PRE-TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH redressed, redecorated, and reassigned to our eternal state but the Lamb is now REDRESSED as the LION, fierce and combative, set for war against these wretched enemies dwelling upon (Rev. 19:13).

In all these matters, HEAVEN is pronounced as the PLACE where ALL OF THIS is taking place. Heaven, NOT Earth, but HEAVEN which constitutes a PRE-TRIB RAPTURE anyway you look at it.

===========================


TREVOR STATED: As for the 2nd Thess. 2, this is an interesting matter. I do not believe at all that the HOLY GHOST is going to leave the Earth. The HOLY GHOST is the very Spirit of life. For Him to be removed completely from the Earth would mean that all life would end right then and there. What I understand those verses to mean by saying "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" is this: the HOLY Ghost will step aside and allow for the hardness of their heart to charge themselves as guilty by their own action, and carry them into condemnation. I don't think for one second that the HOLY SPIRIT will leave altogether. You being a "pre-trib-left-behind" doctrine believer truly don't believe that the HOLY SPIRIT will leave either. If He did, then how could the left behind remnant turn to GOD without the HOLY SPIRIT to draw them? Its literally IMPOSSIBLE for a person to come to GOD without the HOLY SPIRIT working in the Earth realm.

--------------------------------------

MY REPLY: Scripture itself contradicts you in that it in the OT the "Spirit of the Lord' would "come upon certain individuals' of whom God purposed to use versus the introduction of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 that came not only upon the 120 but all who would subsequently receive him (1 Sam. 10:6; 16:14; 1:20; 2 Chr. 15:1; 18:23; Ezra 1:5; Ps. 51:10;11; 104:30; Jos.. 2:28; Acts 2: .

Elswehere Scripture stated along these lines, 'the Holy Ghost would come upon certain individual' inferring NOT any and every but certain 'chosen' individuals.

In all these matters, the Spirit did NOT operate as it did on Pentacost or does today. Bottom line, BIG DIFFERENCE, eh?

So, I guess what I'm saying is that which the Bible professes, the Holy Spirit would come upon 'certain' people at certain times in order to activate them to do God's will. As so, I reitierate the Holy Spirit as WE KNOW HIM IN 'PEOPLE' (not the Earth itself) will LEAVE THIS EARTH WITH 'PEOPLE' and from what the spirit is teaching, pour out as in olden days upon CERTAIN SEALED BEINGS, The 144,000 for one thing. (Rev. 7:4).

As for your understanding of the "Holy Ghost stepping aside to LET THEM charge themselves guilty', Scripture repeatedly tells us the exact opposite. That is, "the world has NO intention of repenting of their evil" so how then can they charge themselves guilty?! (Rev. 2:21; 9:20-21; 16:9,11).


Bottom line, the Holy Spirit who IS holding back the man of sin, will LEAVE in the form we believers knew HIM, with the BELIEVERS intact, and, so shall we meet the LORD in MID AIR and be taken to heaven for the 7 yr. judgment, marriage supper with the Lamb of God. Simultaneously, the 7 yr. tribulation of the left behind (non-believers' will occur upon the Earth (1 Thess. 4:17). Remember the 2 witnesses who the LEFT BEHIND WORLD will rejoice over (Rev. 11:3). Elijah and Moses will be the two as it was Elijah and Moses who appeared in the transfiguration while Yahshua was upon the Earth (Lk. 9:30). It is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in my eyes!.
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TREVOR STATED: "True, the anti-Christ is to do this. On the other hand, I have taken into consideration a "figurative approach", considering the fact that things aren't always what they seem, especially with the Prophetic. What if the place that was spoken of was not the temple, but the very position of a "deity"? The scriptures say this:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." - 2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

This speaks not just of the Jewish GOD, but of all gods worshiped by mankind. Remember, there are Muslims, Buddhist, Mormons, and a host of other faiths that the anti-Christ will come and deem himself head of. I truly believe deep in my heart of hearts that this One-World Government will also have a One World Religion: the Masonic Order. Free Masons and Eastern Stars are required to believe in some sort of faith in order to join, and they do not discriminate upon religions. The reason why is because they themselves are a cult that deals with world domination. The world leaders of today are mostly Masons, ESPECIALLY American leaders. It is them that will help the world leaders (LED BY an Obama regeme) in what they've been planning for years: Novus Ordo Seclorum ("A New Order of the Ages")

Now whether the Temple is built or not, thats something I'm almost convinced will happen...ALMOST. But what I am sure of is that the Masonic Order has their grips on the leadership of this world, especially the U.N. and the U.S.S.R. (United States Socialist Republic)."

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MY REPLY: Trevor, the apostles COULD NOT have been speaking of a 'figurative' Temple for all they knew is a LITERAL TEMPLE. A Temple, I might add, that Yahshua Himself walked in, turned over the moneychangers' table, etc. (Matt. 21:12).

As so, they would have been hardpressed to then speak of a 'figurative' rebuilt Temple when speaking of end-time prophecy. Afterall, most of them were alive to see Titus of 70 A.D burn down their beloved Temple. Most of them scattered along with the unbelieving Jews. So, ofcourse, when speaking of a end-time Temple they were speaking of the LITERAL for that is all they knew.

The anti-Christ would go into the once again restored Temple of which they knew of 'restored Temple' from Ezra's Day and Herod who built them a new Temple. Thus they are understanding Yahshua to prophesy of a LITERAL Temple where the anti-Christ will go into the restored "Holy of Holies' and commit the ULTIMATE 'abomination that causes desolation" (Mark 13:14).

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TREVOR REPLIED: "Getting an Eastern Orthodox Bible is a good idea. Actually, I was about to purchase one the other day at the Christian book store (didn't have enough funds and I don't do lay-away). Though I am intrigued by their canon of Scripture, I wouldn't readily listen to an Ethiopic Bishop preach. The reason is this: their Patriarch (Pope) acts as a high priest, giving a sacrifice on what they claim to be the original Ark of the Covenant.....yes, THE Ark of the Covenant. The Ethiopian Christians are literally like OT Jews who just found out that JESUS is LORD. They still keep all the old Jewish customs found within Torah."

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MY REPLY: Interesting, but I was speaking more in terms of the Ethiopian Jewish believer who has accepted Christ as His Savior or should I say, who knows Yahshua is the Messiah.

I would love to hear what THAT faction has to say in light of the HIGH POSSIBILITY that they do have the original ark of Moses with the 'manna, Aaron's rod that budded' etc., that was put into the ark.

Not to mention, their understanding being enlightened with regard to the books that we believers by and large were not famaliar with, meaning the 'other' books deemed not worthy to go into the 66 books known as the Bible.

Bottom line, it would be very interesting for the orignal Black Jew full of the Holy Spirit, to speak as He/She has come to understand our Messiah Yahshua's will. It would be like stepping back into the very pages of the Bible to see the face, stock, color of the literal FIRST APOSTLES AND CHURCH and that, I would be fascinated to behold!

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TREVOR STATED: "True Zionists are like the Zealots of the Biblical days, not he Pharisees... The Zionists are for Jews owning Jerusalem, even if they have to fight to defend it. The jewelery owners, bankers, business men, and corrupt political officials are actually against Zionist issues and movements. This has been a proven fact."

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MY REPLY: Zionists today are not quite like the Biblical Jews for Simon the Canaanite is said to have been a Zealot and he was a Black/African (Mark 3:18). The light-skinned or what is sometimes referred to as 'white Jew' treats the original black-stocked Jews as 'filth.'They literally have a word that is synomous to the "N" word for them. I cannot at this time remember the exact terminology but at your request I will research it and pull it up.

As so, we see there is two diviision of alleged Jewish stock existing in Israel. One of which is as Scripture proclaims, 'the synagogue of Satan' who will make the pact or covenant with the Euro/White Anti-Christ (Rev. 2:9; 3:9; Dn. 9:)27).
You also said:

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TREVOR STATED: "I'm glad you know that the jigsaw thing was your point! Its your own idea coming back to haunt you! LOL Oh yea, I never dated a time that the pre-trib doctrine came about. I believe that was someone else (probably James, because he once said something to that effect in a post before). I don't care when a person discovers the doctrine, so long as they discover it! The restoration of Apostleship isn't that old (but isn't that young either). However, with all that said, the pre-trib doctrine is not rooted within scripture. I'm a person who believes in the Holy Trinity. A Oneness believer can come along and tell me that their doctrine is found all within scripture. They can use all the verses they want, because its not a matter of if the scripture are right, its a matter of revelation/interpretation of scripture. You gave 16 proofs for Pre-trib doctrine. I can probably find 16 in OT, and 16 in NT to prove Post-Trib doctrine. Some take the same Bible I read and say women cannot preach preach or be Apostles/Bishops/Senior Pastors. Again, the scriptures are true, but is your interpretation true? THATS the question..........

Even so, come quickly LORD, be it before, during or after the drama

JUST COME!!!"

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MY REPLY? Huh? What?! Come on, Trevor, this your reply borders on ludicrous. Ofcourse we use Scripture to point out our beliefs, that's what this whole conversation centers upon. I use Scripture to show where pre-trib exists and you use Scripture to allegedly show where post trib exists.

Oh, this your reply is so obvious that you've run out of 'sound' reasoning against the PRE-TRIB TRUTH and just spouted this uhm, whatever it is, type of, 'I can pull up for mine, and you can pull up for yours'' nonsense....unbelievable, you're so much better than that...lol!

Must have been a rushed day, eh? :-)

As such, AGAIN, here are the 16 proofs that I wish to DISCUSS with regard to my beliefs on the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THAT WILL TAKE PLACE.


16 PROOFS OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

Click on the link and check it out:

http://www.rapturealert.com/sixteenproofs.html"

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NOW, having said all that, I've saved the best for last. Let's deal with your OBAMA comments:

Okay, let's go there, you linked Obama to Eastern Star and the Masons both of which were started before this man was even thought of being conceived. I don't even think his momma was conceived but YOU put him in league with both of these groups.

You neglected to mention all the BLACKS who are members of these groups and have long been members. Again, long before Obama was even thought of being conceived. Still, in your mind, 'he is it'. Wow!

Well, let me set the record straight with regard to Obama AGAIN!

Obama prior to becoming a Senator of Illinois worked in the poor sections of Chicago. Now, mind you, he gave up a lucrative million dollar chance of being a prominent lawyer to work with the poor sort of like Yahshua/Jesus did. Meaning, hey, if Yahshua had sucked up to the powers that be, he could have gone far. Probably been in running for the next High Priest but then again, he, like Obama didn't liek corruption that's why both denounced it.

Oh, and before you go there, yes, I'm comparing Christ-like qualities but by no means, is Obama Christ nor does he claim to be such as all the TRUE anti-Christ white forces would liken him to be.

I don't know why YOU would join such a pack. Okay, but to each his own, eh? Nonetheless, it seems YOU have forgotten Obama did NOT come to prominence promoting socialism in any way, shape or form. Rather, he came to prominence promoting 'UNITY' against the 'divisiness' that George Bush and The Republicans had made the mainstay in America.

Again, the Republicans and George Bush wrought such a cursed evil NOT OBAMA!

Also, as it seems you have forgotten, Bush and the Republicans brought this nation to a near economic collapse and their solution was to hand Congress/Senate a 'blank check' to hand over to the bankers.

Whereas Obama's and the Democrats solution was to give a stimulus package to STOP THE COLLASPE in order that millions of ordinary, hard-working Americans would NOT lose their jobs.

Remember, for all the 10% that have lost their jobs, if the Republicans had had their way over 50% would have lost their jobs as the Republicans solution to their OWN DELIBERATE DESTRUCTION OF THE U.S. was to 'LET IT COLLASPE!'

Yep, that's what they said, 'let is collaspe and see what happens.' Meaning, don't rescue the Middle Class and poor which, by the way, was their agenda anyway. That is, prior to the 2006 election that got them out of power, they, that is, the REPUBLICANS ALONE, went about to altogether strip the Middle Class out of existance. When the masses voted in the Democrats all that halted.

If the Democrats did nothing else, they should have been lauded from the heavens who raised them up for being the vessel God used to stop the damnable Republicans demonic plot to ABORT THE MIDDLE CLASS for that is exactly what was going on in the U.S.

Amidst their evil to abort the Middle Class and so bring about a white male elitist tyranny like unto their Middle Eastern brothers whom the Bush administration envied, the right-wing was selling America to these sinister terrorists Saudi types who they declared 'their allies.' Yes, for love of a dollar they sold America to this filth who sinisterly were/are allied with the Latin American, drug cartel ilk, both of which slithered in their diabolical, demonic, downright savage armies.

This barbaric filth is here to utlize the 'savagery' they are accustomed to. This is why you heretell of the 'beheadings, kidnappings, etc.' that were once foreign to the U.S.

Again, the Republicans did this NOT the Democrats. The Republcians carried on this ANTI-CHRIST behavior with the blessings of the so-called Christian Right NOT the DEMOCRATS or OBAMA!

Not to mention that George Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld LIED AND DECEIVED the American people in order to go forth and build up what Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay and the others all boasted IS the ANTI-CHRIST ECONOMIC END-TIME HEADQUARTERS I.E. IRAQ which is OLD/BABYLON.

They are right ofcourse, yet in all these matters, OBAMA is NOT the EVIL ONE rather the REPUBLICANS AND THEIR PAST LEADERS...TRY CHENEY FOR INSTANCE WHO HAS A 'SNARL' LIKE SATAN HIMSELF Annnnnnnnnd is against OBAMA.

Now, like I told you in another post, YES, the evil ones, would try to corrupt Obama. The Bible says, 'worthless fellows attached themselves to David to try to get him to KILL SAUL' (1 Sam.). Does that make DAVID THE ANTI-CHRIST because worthless fellows THOUGHT they were 'priming him' to 'do their will?" NO!

In like manner it does not make Obama who, by the way, came forth speaking of 'justice and liberty for all' as the answer to healing America. Mind you, that's the 'justice and liberty for all' that Bush and the so-called Christian Right were depriving the poor and middle class of.

Here is Obama a godly man who comes forth and says, the poor and Middle Class are without health care and all the so-called Christian Right can say is 'oh that sounds like socialism'. Not, 'oh, praise God, who is reaching out to protect the Middle Class and poor who don't have health care in a wealthy nation like America.' Or, 'Bless God we live in the richest nation that would promote that the poorest of the poor among us have health care.' Or, 'Thank God, our God has raised up someone who will resist the wicked, corrupt, insurance companies that has for decades, nay, centuries ripped off the poor and Middle Class from adequate health care.'

Instead, all such hardhearted, deceived ones, look at the ISSUE instead of the PEOPLE OF GOD and proclaim, 'oooh, that could lead to socialism' i.e. Obama is the Anti-Christ.' In the meantime, these so-called 'Christ-like' ones' are blinded to the death and destruction of the poor and Middle Class masses who the very rich, white, elitist insurance companies continue to rip off and in so doing, bring about the MOLECH DEATH OF THE INNOCENT. What a despicable evil before God and humanity! Shameful!

Obama whom YAHSHUA/JESUS raised up would put a stop to it, and all such can say is, "oooh, he's the Anti-Christ because that Anti-Christ organization known as the Illuminati said they are going to try and 'prime hime to this end.'

In the meantime, NOT A ONE of these sanctimonious ilk quote what OBAMA HIMSELF HAS SAID, which is, 'prior to becoming President of the United States, I'll admit, I didn't pray as often as I shoud. However, now that I am President, I PRAY DAILY THAT GOD ALMIGHTY WILL HELP AND GUIDE ME!"

Can't ask for anything more than that now can we?

Oh, and for the record, righteous black women from the day we knew he had a legitimate shot have not ceased to pray fervent, effectual prayers that avail much for this RIGHTEOUS BLACK MAN who is the END-TIME manifestation of the 'I HAVE A DREAM' vision of our ancestors from slavery days onward.

He is the sign that God did not forsake those who kept our 'eyes on the prize' and oooooh what a prize but a black bi-racial, handsome, God/Revering man who lifts up the beauty of his black wife and daughters.

So you see Trevor, as a black woman sprung from the same spirit filled conviction as Harriet Tubman, Sojouner Truth, and a host of other spirit-filled black women who have held this nation together such as it is, let me assure and reassure you that Obama is NOT the Anti-Christ AT ALL.

Look to the Europeans and not the words of Ashkenazis such as Kissingers for as much as such believe themselves to be in the satanic loop, the fact is, the Euros' or Anglos would never really let such types into the demonic inner circles as Ashkenazi and Sephardim the euro brand of Jews will ever remain a stench in their satanic eyes.

Don't believe me? What was WWII all about again? Kissinger is a Satanic Liar 'false Jew' of the synagogue of Satan Just like the Bible proclaims such types would exist (Rev. 3:9).

Deal with it Trevor, deal with it!

Obama has done NO evil nor came forth promoting it. It's his detractors who are the 'evil' ones' before aJust God.

Think about that Trevor, think about that.

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