Questions for the Hebrew Israelite Brethren and Sisteren...

[newview]

Why are you guys of the Hebrew Israelite denomination so caught up in the flesh - OT, OT, OT. Have you guys ever been effected by that which is spiritual?

Do miracles ever happen amongst your congregants - like other wordly happenings - things that you can't explain and yet don't contradict the word of God?

Do you guys ever speak in tongues under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost? and if so Have they been interpretated and if so - what were a few of the messages?

Does the Lord ever give y'all visions? Daytime visions?

When there is sick among you - has your elders been called to anoint the sick with oil and pray for them and you see them miraculously healed?

Are there any-any-any white people in any of your congregations? or have there ever been any at one time but are now gone?

Do you guys believe in the resurrection of the dead?

Do you sing songs? If so - name at least 5.

Do you dance for joy in the Lord?

Are there any in your congregations who prophesy on things to come? - if so - please share a few.

When I read yall posts I often wonder if there is any joy and anything spiritual going on in your assemblies. It does not seem so, but there could be alot going on and you guys are just not sharing it with us.
And if your goal is to convert - you really need to step out and say something that the board can know or at least surmise that the God of Heaven steps out of Eternity and deals with your group(s).
I dont want it to seem that I am asking for a sign but I guess I am because the early church brought with their doctrine power and demonstration.

Otherwise - to me at least - it seems that what you brothers are sharing is stagnant.
And I say that out of love. I really enjoy scrapping with you guys over many of the subjects but when it gets down to business - outside of the OT - there is a dead pool effect going on.

Besides striving about the Law - share with the board how God deals with you guys mightily.

In Peace

[Zealot X]

That's not where we part ways. I have already said that the law cannot be kept without love. Love IS where it starts. The law was just a tool to measure right and wrong in our expressions of love or the absence of it. So on that we agree.

It is also important that you do not confuse messianic Israelites for pharisees or Judaizers. You may feel that way at times but there is a big difference. We do not believe in paying a harsh penalty for falling short in this life. However, there is a harsh penalty for non-repetentance. Yeshua is the one that said it is better to loose a limb than have your entire body cast into the lake of fire. So you have to actually WALK/LIVE in obedience to YHWH so that he will have mercy on you. We all have a "grace period" to get it together. But if you're not even trying.... that is when you're asking to be cast into the lake of fire. YHWH does not want people to be lost. He wants people to change. Again... this is actually an OT understanding that is simply built upon in the NT... like pretty much all the other concepts. The NT just extends the OT and gives new insight (or at least insight that wasn't the prevailing perspective at that time). My wife and I just had a very nice talk about the Essenes. I think you should research them and their connection to the NT.

The only thing you said that I disagree with really is the sin nature. People have misinterpreted that. Being born in sin is like being born in the ghetto. Your ENVIRONMENT shapes you and often poisons you and corrupts you. You can escape but its hard. I do not have a natural instinct to kill anyone, do you? But if you are raised by murderers then you might have more of a tendency. The Scriptures tell us to train up a child in the way that he should go. YHWH understands the role of training and parenting. That's why he has placed himself as a Father to Yisra'el. Fathers teach their children. If you learn from his teachings (which is literally what torah actually means) then you will grow up in the way that you should go. There is no sin nature that makes you sin. Sin is always a conscious decision based on the abundance of the heart.

Remember... everyone wasn't a pharisee. The pharisees were simply the ones with most of the power because Rome allowed them to be in exchange for cooperation. They made life hard for the Israelites and made the law a burden by adding their own traditions. They even believed that they had the G-d given authority to rule no matter what and to create whatever law they saw fit. No one understood "LOVE" from all THEIR commandments (man-made) which led to legalism.

So the messiah saved them from their bondage to the pharisees and the LEGAL law of the land under Roman occupation by bringing back Torah; bringing back the commandments of YHWH. The law was not given to convince people that they needed a savior. The law was given so that humans would obey G-d.

1 Samuel 15:22 - And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

In other words, if you obey you don't need to sacrifice (at least for that sin) and so sacrifices, which were things you had to "GIVE UP" were supposed to teach you to stop sinning so that you wouldn't have to make sacrifices for it. There was a time when people tried to substitute sacrifice for obedience and basically YHWH blew up on them, saying that he didn't want their sacrifices. So basically I'm saying the same thing. YHWH wants you to obey. You're supposed to learn from Yeshua's life and sacrifices so that his death is not in vain. Repent. That is what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to change. And change our natures to be like Messiah. And here's a secret. We are supposed to take on messiah upon ourselves so that we go out and do whatever we can to try and change the world according to the will of YHWH. The last thing YHWH wanted was to create a dependency on the sacrifice. He wants obedience.

Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The NT is pretty strict if you actually read it all. Here Paul is basically saying that if you obey sin it is unto death. Whoever you obey is who you serve. This is why there is so much real talk that needs to be had with Christianity. I just don't know.... There is so much you need to be aware of and warned about. Take Romans 6:16 very seriously for a second. If Christmas and Easter are not of G-d but rather pagan and this is the counterfeit that the devil wants you to celebrate instead of the feast days of YHWH, who are you serving by being obedient to these Christian holy days? The ideal of Christians is great but it has been corrupted by the religion of Christianity. And it is hard to separate Christians from the religion that causes them to be workers of iniquity because they assume that it is based on Christ only. But if the stuff you do has pagan origins (which you can look up yourself) the how is it not corrupt? And if it is corrupt, what do you do about it? Pretend it doesn't matter? What if it matters more than you think?

What I would say in response to what you wrote is that you need both the spirit and the letter. My outsides will match my insides. If I have a righteous mind then my actions will follow. Yeshua said it best. The tree is known by its fruit. Therefore, if you are angry then you have the potential to commit murder. If you lust after women who belong to someone else then you have the potential to commit adultery. etc. etc. Now lust may not hurt anyone per se. But adultery always does. Anger may just make you feel bad but if you murder someone then there's nothing you can do to bring them back.

and as far as divorce.... the law HAD to allow for divorce in order to allow people to escape very bad situations. This was not the intent but it is because of sin that it is sometimes better to divorce than to suffer for the rest of your life. Divorce was the lesser evil.

No oath-taking? There are oaths. Retaliation. There were cities that people could flee to in order to avoid retaliation or revenge. Hatred for your enemy? It you want to be that literal you would have to say G-d hates too (he doesn't. I'm just making a point)..

1 The burden of the word of YHWH to Israel by Malachi. 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

we are to love our enemy in order to end the cycle of retaliation. By loving our enemies we should create less enemies and then we wont feel the need to hate anyone.

shalom

[Zealot X]

Another thing that I see Christians assuming is that all Israelites are under the school master. Understand this concept. All of us here went to school at some point so we were all under teachers. Those teachers taught us reading, writing, and math at the very least. But today, we are not under those teachers. Why? Because we KNOW how to read, how to write, and how to do math. But if you never learned how to read then don't you need to be taught? Paul was already taught the law. He was already educated and when he spoke of Israelites he was frustrated because these were the people who had been given the law all this time and they still did not understand. They were not much better off than the gentiles who he said were a "law unto themselves" because they were keeping parts of the law by their own nature. Not ALL gentiles mind you, but the ones he was talking about. So its not about "having the law". It's about learning it and eventually internalizing it and mastering it so that your nature changes from unrighteous to righteous. That's what we're talking about in 1 John. If you have matured in the law then you don't need to walk around with a bible checking what it says before you make decisions. Hezekiah complains that I talk and talk and don't post a lot of scriptures. But if you have read and internalized as much as I have you simply know what it says and if you are dealing with another person who also knows what it says you shouldn't have to quote scriptures to each other. It's inside me. I talk about Torah because it is more than what is written.

Let me say that again.....

TORAH is more than what is written. Understanding Torah means understanding both the letter and the spirit. As Paul says:

Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul is much more PRO-law than you could ever imagine. In his opinion he doesn't even allow women to teach. Where did that come from? Do you think Paul had arbitrary rules that he received from Yeshua? If that is the case then everything he says, that you go by, not because you understand it, but because that's what the NT says, you are treating the NT as another Torah.... a school master. You don't understand it. You just follow it. But the reality is that people are being taught the opposite of the law. They're being taught sin as if sin is love; as if you can rebel against G-d and its the same as loving him. That is a deception. YHWH always wanted people to do specific things for him to show that they loved him. And he commanded those specific things just as a king would command his nation.

The law was meant to protect people and maintain relationships. In a marriage both husband and wife have expectations and turns ons as well as turn offs. There are things that will upset one man or woman that will not bother another. YHWH said these are the things I want you to do for me and these are the things I want you to do for other people. He didn't randomly give laws. Laws exist for a reason. When you don't understand the reason and don't know him you tend to read off the law as you would a shopping list. It doesn't mean anything to you beyond doing it. But the law existed to help change man's nature. When our nature has been purified which is the wilderness experience, then we can go back into a state of being when we didn't have a law because YHWH didn't need to give us one. But if you are still doing what the law says not to do then you still need the law to teach you and guide you. If your belief is that Yeshua could be perfect so you don't have to strive for perfection then you haven't read everything he said. He told us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. People can make all the excuses in the world but its not like I need to go to the OT to prove that the law is important. But that doesn't mean the law is THE END. It's not. It's more like the beginning. But if you never started at the beginning then that is why you would need to go back to the beginning.

I check with the law as much as I need to mainly to correct other people so that I can give them specific references that they can look up. But I'm not at the point where I need it in my own daily life. Yeshua didn't walk around with the scriptures either. He couldn't. Only rich people had their own copy back then because it was very expensive and time consuming to reproduce. You had to go to the synagogue to read the scrolls and maybe you'd have to have someone read them to you. They needed it to be written on their hearts much more than we need the same today. But because I have so much access to it, and because... my study methods are a bit more advanced than the average person, I have internalized pretty much all of it. I've read the entire Torah (5 books of Moses) and most of the Tanakh. And I know my nature (which wasn't bad before thanks to good parents) has changed even more for the better because of Torah and not just Torah, by reading the OT, but Torah through the life and teachings of Yeshua. Grace is certainly a good thing but grace is undeserved favor. Grace isn't so good that I would want to go through life doing things to be undeserving of favor that I would always and constantly need grace.

And one correction on something Anthony recently said. He said that we sin every day. No we don't. And I can honestly say that.


Shalom

[Hezekiah Ben Israel]

I agree with you Brother Zealot for the most part. We got off on a bad start because we differ on the Godhead, but when I found out you kept the commandments, and from reading all these posts, you have eaten hefty portions of the meat. I am a bottomless pit for the meat. The reason why I request the scripture is because you can tell by what scriptures people post if they truly know the word or not. As I have gotten to know you, you do have good understanding, and I am fine with you. I just have run into soooo much opposition since I have been moving around the internet. It get's old. I still have some growing to do because there may not be a way to know all of the info the Bible provides. But the Lord, by the Mouth of Gabriel has given me to drink of the living waters, and I believed it to be true. So.. I understand and you are alright in my book brother because we are one by the commandments through Jesus Christ or Yeshua, or whatever you call him. You a good Brother, and keep teaching this truth.