But what is your take on what would have happened if the prodigal son or anyone who had received salvation backslides by rejecting the Father, His Son, the Holy Ghost and totally turned away from the faith and DIED without having repented or had the opportunity to return to the fold. Would that person be heading for hell or heaven? This is a conversation that came up with a couple of my work colleague when we were in an after discussion on Luke 15:11-32 so I would be interested in having a discussion and receiving everyone's point of view.
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Hello Miss Angela,
The original topic had some merrit of provoking fruitful comments and remarks because it should invite us all to look into our own mirror so that we can be all that we can be; to the glory of God. But however; if you're are now tacking on additional stipulations and restrictions to the original question; it really becomes a waste of time to try to have a conversation about it. After all, when it comes to someone else and their salvation; God is their judge and not us. All scriptures that I referenced, were done so in sincerity and in context and I can respect the fact that we may not agree.
Actually Minister Traeyyou did not read the senerio that formed part of the question and you still appear just to look at the title but there is a senerio given
Hello Angela Loundes
You are correct and I apologize.
There are many different topics and postings which encourage fruitful discussions about ministry efforts that truly have the potential to make a difference in our own lives as well as the lives of others. After reading your Topic and the subsequent paragrah I would like to submit a few questions about all the information you've gathered and how you now feel about the motivation behind the original question.
1. All things considered, knowledge is power. Has your outlook or mindset been changed or strengthened by the various postings?
2. Agreeing that we are the salt of the Earth. Do our perceptions or conclusions about the destiny of others have any determination on their destiny?
3. Believing that light has no fellowship with darkness. How should we present or discuss the Word of God with someone who does not believe it and should we continue our debate?
4. Pertaining to John 3:16-18, How does our observation of the world line up with Jesus' plan for the world?
5. What are your definitions of Faith, Grace and Mercy respectively and how do we determine if someone else has them? Is this part of a christian's job description?
6. Has this Topic been survey of esoterical judgements or is this something that will give the readers [believers] tools to havest souls for the Kingdom of God?
I agree, we are not to judge others salvation, and allow the Sovereign God his prerogative.
Another issue that is very common with Christians is when it come to the matter of taken Scripture out of its context. In fact, there's a lot of confusion out there. May the Lord help us.
It is not our business to figure out those who died without confessing those sins we think of. Bible never said they are hell bound, then, it will contradict God's promise.
Nevertheless, it is better a believer walks in the plan of God. For there are blessings if we obey, and disciplines we disobey. These are the work of the Sovereign God. He alone decides how to deal with his sons, not bastards. For EVERY christian is a member of the family of God.
Unfortunately my dear ignorance of doctrine has been a serious issue in Christianity. The prodigal son will always be a son, even when he walked away from the father. H e can never loose his status. It is irrevocable. There are certain things that are unchangeable in life. Example, a human being can ever become an animal. At worse he may become an imbecile, nonetheless, he his still human. Your DNA in your child can never be lost, can it? NO!. I am not saying for the sake of making argument, in salvation it is God that is holding us, we are not the one holding him. His integrity is what counts. Remember those that have been given to the Lord, Jesus Christ, He will never loose. Nothing present or future will snatch them away from Him. They may make bad decisions which may cause them to loose certain blessing or rewards, but Scripture makes it abundantly clear, that Salvation is a one shot event, that can never be lost. No matter what we as human think, what God thinks counts more.
Further, you quoted King David, he suffered for his bad decisions, his eternal salvation was not the issue. And you may not know that it was not our personal sins that condemned us, we were all born under condemnation, because of Adam's original sin. Sins are never an issue in respect to eternal salvation, sins are an issue in our spiritual growth. And sins we would continue to commit, by commission or omission until we depart this world. WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, FROM BEGINNING TO THE END. NO ONE CAN MAKE HEAVEN, HEAVEN IS A GIFT BY FAITH, ONCE IN A LIFETIME. Salvation is written in a perfect tense, it can never be repeated, neither diminish, nor get lost. That is the uniqueness of Christianity. Christ did it all for us. Regrettably, self righteous believers have tried, though ignorantly to rubbish this amazing free gift.
Finally, An understanding of salvation would change and deflect a lot of our humanistic viewpoint about the plan of God for us.
Amechi -your response the son will always be the son-- well yes he will also be a son yes but there is a difference between being a dead son and a living son and while he left the Father and stayed away he was nothing more that a son who died. The Father will always be our Father regardless of our action but we will not always have life with he Father because that will depend on our action. Now what you are all missing is Luke tells us that the son walked away from the Father so there is no question that we can walk away so it is pointless arguing that we cannot this very passage that we are discussing tell us we can. Now we also know the son came back there is no doubt the scripture also tell us that, what you failing to grasp is I am asking you to go outside the box and image what would have been the fate of the son if he had died before he came to his senses, in other words suppose he had died while he was still squandering his money , died before he hit upon the hard times , died before he realise what a mistake he made, died before he realise the best thing was to return to the Father.
Thank you for such characterization of me, i am humbled by it. It doesn't prevent me from loving you impersonally.
However, when there is a controversy, either both parties are wrong, or one is wrong and the other right.
If I am convinced of my doctrinal viewpoint, i think i am free to share it. Absoluteness of views is not a sin. May the Lord strengthen and guide you.
This network, abcpreachers bothers me at times as it is supposed to be a place for those in ministry. At least I thought?
If we are in ministry then if scripture is not clear, then although it is fine to give ones opinion on something, for instance this subject, whether one is saved, regardless of the path one walks, then we if we are good ministers or teachers should first speak to what scriptures tell us. For example scripture does not say "once saved always saved." That is a teaching from men. In fact in Revelations it talks about names being blotted out of the Lamb's book of Life. To me at least, that suggest that it is possible to loose ones salvation.
What is scary to me is that we should as good teachers or ministers speak of what is in scripture and if it is open ended such as this topic is, then fine it is OK to have an opinion, but it should be said that it is just an opinion. What is alarming is that if some in here is teaching some thing as fact and it is only an opinion. I would think at least salvation would be to preach what is there and not opinions? The fruit of teaching opinions may take people down the wrong path.
It was mentioned about the prodigal son. To start with we all are God's children, Jew, Gentile, Muslim, purple, whatever, because we all came from Noah's family and Noah and His family was of God. In the parable of the prodigal son, which was in the Old Testament still (because the New Testament could not start until Acts chapter 2 as those where the first born again believers). If the prodigal son was a Jew, it was Jews that saw that salvation was more for life than the after life. Salvation to the Jew was for protection and provision. How one was saved in the Old Testament was to know God's plan and then do everything they could to walk in that plan. To a Jew to not walk in that plan meant ending up in Egypt as a slave. In fact as a Jew every time we turned our back on God, it ended up with disaster and death. Death to a Jew was separation from God.
Grace is something that is there when we make mistakes, but it says no where in scripture that grace will cover us if we go off on our own in the wrong direction intentionally, but to teach that we are still in grace no matter what we do (if it is not in scripture) then we put ourselves above God. How that happens is by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and teaching what one thinks is good, when it is evil or the other way around. Teaching something that is evil when it is actually good.
If we are God's people and teachers of the truth, then it would seem that we need to teach what is there instead of putting a spin on it. It is ok to say ones opinion but it should also be stated that it is an opinion.
Ok ok whats the point? The point is, no man can say who is saved or not saved, only God can. When we walk around saying who is saved and who is not saved we do so because we are judging and the reason we should not judge is because God is the judge of who is saved and not saved.
The plan of God for us is two things, an overall thing and an individual thing. Scripture makes it clear that we are bought with a price and no longer our own, which means we need to be seeking God for direction in life for everything from who to marry or what job or what we have been called to do or where we should live, etc. Salvation in the Old Testament was knowing those things and walking in them.
If one believes that Jesus came to start a new religion or work called Christianity, they will answer this question of "once saved always saved" differently that one who believes that Jesus came that all may be grafted into the promise. The promise was there for those that walk in the direction for His people as individuals and as a group. The promise would take care of a person in life and afterwards.
In Christianity it often means "once saved always saved," no matter what one does in life or does not do in life, whether then know God's plan for their whole life or not or decide to walk in that plan or not. Salvation in Christianity is often defined as just a belief that one is saved and it is based one "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house," which is really tied to Proverbs 3:5 which is trusting in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not unto your own understanding, but in all you ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path," is different than just believing one is saved no matter if they are trusting and seeking God or not.
This conversation is scary to me as it shows who ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Maybe that is why it was there to start with. I am not sure. If it was done with that in mind, who ever started this thread is wise. Who knows the intent of the heart except for God?
Going through your arguments, it makes a lot of incoherency, I would not say much than this.
However, i pick issue with your quarrel about eternal security, though your opinion is well respected.
Firstly, Scripture cannot contradict itself, Please read John 10:28-29, Rom.8:35-39. The verse you quoted in Revelation 20:11-15, there are books, and also book. The books contain the deeds of unbelievers, who taught their good deeds would earn them eternal salvation. Those whose names are written in the book (singular) are only believers. Further, when any person by act of simple faith alone in Christ alone is saved, his name will be written in the book, not the books. Therefore, those who are saved believes in Christ deeds, and not their own deeds.Which means salvation is by faith not by works.
Before you continue on your argument about eternal salvation, you may not know that salvation is written in perfect tense, this means it cannot be undone, It is once for all. Just as the finished work of Christ is also written in perfect tense, it cannot be repeated too. No one in heaven or on earth can unseal the SEAL work of the Holy Spirit.
Proverbs 3:5 is not a verse for beginners or salvation in Christianity, it encourages spiritual growth. Your definition on OT salvation add salt to injury. Where you got that from i do not know.
In fact, your line of arguments make it very difficult to discuss doctrinal issues with you. It seems you mix up a whole lot of points, lifting Scriptures out of their context. I think your opinion matters more to you than what the Bible say, if not how can you embark on so many wild goose chase. And to make matters worse, it seems you are a Bible teacher. That is terrible!
It is ok to read all sort of books but we must be very careful. For many are loaded with human viewpoints, and academic philosophizing, which is the wisdom of this world.
My dear, Scripture has categories, verses that are for salvation is different from verses meant for spiritual growth, and maturity. You will do better if only you sit down to unlearn and relearn. May the Lord see you through.
Finally, there is only one way to get saved: through faith or believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, as one's personal Savior. After that, begins the process of spiritual growth. If no growth occurs, it cannot erase or cancel that person's position or status in Christ, but the individual will surely suffer eternal losses of rewards. Therefore, to inhabit in the kingdom is totally different from to inherit the kingdom. I pray may the Lord awaken and guide you .
Believe it or not I do appreciate greatly your response? I am not sure you addressed anything that was mentioned, but it was a response. I am not a teacher, nor do I profess to be anything except I work in the mission field looking for ways to bring solutions to those in need on a global basis.
For me personally I was born a Jew. I know my relatives all the way back Aaron, which does not make me an expert in anything. It only makes me a human being that attempts to motivate the 94% of the body of Christ that also seem to feel that they are eternally saved, even though they do not know God's plan for their lives. Yes, they know about the introduction to Jesus and they study and study and well you get the picture? Reading a book even as informative as the Bible is great, but is it about reading a book or even books, or is it about that personal relationship?
Many seem to think to day that the reading of the books are "the" personal relationship. I don't see that, but who knows, I am not God. I can't pretend to say who is saved and who is not saved.
One thing that bothers me about all that you have written is that you have not said that you have sought God or have you said that what you are writing is what God said to you or what God showed you. Maybe that is important, maybe it isn't? I just know what He personally did for me and I know what He has done for others and when I am with His people, His Spirit moves freely as there is life. That really is the best time I have on this earth, when I sense His presence. In that presence there is love one for the other as God's Heart is free to move through us.
In all of these discussions I have not seen where people have said that salvation is to have God's heart. I do know that when people do have God's heart there is commonality and cohesiveness between us all, which does not come from a book, but the personal experience that we each have with God through Jesus. I also do not see a lot of talk about loving God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit or about having a relationship with each one individually.
The group I belong to dare not take any name or any claim to know anything or credit for being anything, but we know who we are in Him and to us He is everything and we know that to Him we are everything.
In all the times that God has taught me at least, He has never taught me about tenses or dispensations or a lot of other things mentioned in this thread. I do know that He taught me that Jesus gave His life so that all could be grafted into the promise, but what I saw was a bolt of cloth as we were weaved into the cloth which makes the bolt of cloth.
I read this over and over several times and I must admit it is rather foggy for whatever reason: "Further, when any person by act of simple faith alone in Christ alone is saved, his name will be written in the book, not the books. Therefore, those who are saved believes in Christ deeds, and not their own deeds.Which means salvation is by faith not by works."
The reason that is foggy to me at least is one actually believes something, they will actually do something. To me at least if a person "believes" they will seek God out. They will want to know His will for them for their lives and all aspects of their lives, because they are bright enough to know that one is happier in life if we are walking in the path He wants for us. That is doing something. If a person really believes they will move in that type of authority and responsibility. That is not how one is saved, but a reaction to being a part of God's family.
You make mention of what you think and what you think is the following: "I think your opinion matters more to you than what the Bible say, if not how can you embark on so many wild goose chase. And to make matters worse, it seems you are a Bible teacher. That is terrible!"
One more thing I did want to comment on which was your statement, "My dear, Scripture has categories, verses that are for salvation is different from verses meant for spiritual growth, and maturity. You will do better if only you sit down to unlearn and relearn. May the Lord see you through." The Bible and all the words in the Bible is about salvation. Every word in it is about "How one can walk with God," which really is what salvation is, being able to walk with God.
The things I have mentioned, does not sell a lot of books if that was the goal? All I really have is that relationship. How one gets that relationship is in spending time with God and putting Him first in our lives. Once again, doing that does not sell a lot of books nor does it get a lot of church buildings built, but my hunch at least is God is not really impressed with all the books or buildings, because He never said those things were important. What matters to Him is if we care for those that are hungry or need clothing or a safe place to sleep or those that are sick or in prison. That is what He showed me that was important to Him. Maybe that is worth something or not? Each of us needs to decide whether it is or isn't?
You say that without even knowing who I am or who I serve. Do you really have any idea of how judgmental or critical you are? You see I know one thing, which is God made me the way I am. If you take issue with me, you really have issue with God and would suggest you seek Him out instead of all the books. What I do speak or write, is what I am given to speak or write. No more or less.