Interesting is the facts that the Muslim and the Christians both believe in the concept...and Both have a failed Messiah to lead them. One of Anger and hatred and the evil hatred for anybody not Muslim,...and the Other ...well you know the story"..
Like the whole Virgin Birth thing it was a mistranslation from the Hebrew word Alma' which is young women...Not Virgin.
The Virgin Birth Concept was started in 646 CE/AD and Cannonized as a fact by Rome in 697 CE/AD that is 650 years later than your Rabbi Mar Yeshua Ben Yoseph was impaled by Rome decree.
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."
For further reading on the "suffering servant": jewsforjudaism.org/ss
I think that people tend to either get to deep or to opinionated about whether a pastor or clergy
should have a salary.
again Gal. 6: 6,7 and 1 tim. 5:18
I love God. I would do anything he asks for free. He sent his son to die for me on the Cross.
The pay method by which the highpreist and levitical preisthood are to be paid is written in leviticus
The method really hasn't changed. We have the five fold ministry, paid staff (I wonder why everyone else
can be on the payroll except the preacher), your church may have a custodian, secretary, security etc...
Depending on the size of the church. When anyone is in full time in ministry whether he preaches or fix a
toilet. He deserves pay because he or she has a household out side of church to take care of.
I know you are saying God will Provide. I am glad you said that. Revelation to some. The bible says
in Luke 6:38 that men shall give unto your bossom. Preachers give out and expend so much, why should
he not get a salary. On your job if you don't get paid its go be a problem. But the man or woman of
God just loves you and keep going. If you love your pastor give him or her a salary. They deserve it.
Jesus said no one has forsaken all not to gain a hundredfold in his or her life.
If your husband or wife was a janitor and said i quit my job to be a janitor for the church.
After the pleasantries, the spouse will ask what are they paying you.
If you say i am working for free, your spouse might say you must be crazy how we go pay the rent.
If you say the board and the pastor decided, i will get the same pay you might say God is good.
Whether you preach the gospel or not. We cannot expect somone to forsake their family and household.
That may mean the preacher will have to work until the church can support his needs, again depending
on that individual church.
Pastoring a church is a spiritual, physical and an emotional job. Remeber the preachers job is not just
defined by his preaching and studying duties.
There are a lot of people as well as preachers that divorce from financial stress.
As a pastor all I ask is that you not just read the scriptures I gave but study them before you comment.
I am an admirer of your anointing and your scholarship. Also, as evidenced in another thread, I think you and I are on the same page on many issues concerning the Body of Christ. However, in this instance, please suffer me to take a slight variation.
I believe officers of the five-fold ministry should be compensated for their work (1 Timothy 5:18). However there is a scriptural precedent for bi-vocational ministers -- the Apostle Paul was a bi-vocational tentmaker and preacher (Acts 18:23).
One of the most abused premises concerning compensation of ministers is that the modern ministry is somehow connected to the Levitical priesthood. Many of us who operate in one or more offices of the five-fold ministry could qualify as, first of all, precious few of us are able to trace our lineage back to Levi and, second, many would be disqualified under the stipulations of Leviticus 21:17-24.
Under the law, Priests were to wear garments that prevented them from sweating (Ezekiel 44:8). Now I know some anointed men of God that can sweat up a suit! Under the law, many of the suits we wear to preach in would disqualify us!
Under Levitical law, women could not serve in a priestly capacity. This would invalidate the preaching of the Samaritan woman (John 4:39), Mary Magdalene (Matthew 28:7), not to mention contemporary preachers such as Joyce Meyer, Cindy Trimm, and Sheryl Brady, among others.
Also, another frequently abused passage of scripture is Malachi 3:8-10. When we speak of bringing tithes into the storehouse, we should ensure meat is in the house. The example for this is Genesis 41:47-57. In bad times, the church should be feeding folks. Sadly, though, during this current time of famine, many churches failed to help those in need. Many of the wealthy Pastors did not miss any meals during this time!
Of course, observation of the Levitcal priesthood would render us under the law instead of grace (Galatians 3:21-25) and, if we're guilty of one part of the law we're guilty of the whole law (James 2:10). That means when we claim to support the Levitical priesthood, we are guilty under the law when we opt to enjoy bacon with our breakfast or a slab of ribs for dinner! And let's not even get started on chitlins!
(Brother Yaakov, I can hear the rumbling of your rebuttal - smile)
Jesus, who was from the line of Judah, not Levi, is our high priest! And this priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek, who was identified as both a king (which meant he had wealth) and a Priest (which meant he ministered to -- or rendered service to -- The Lord. Therefore, the tithe is appropriate to render honor to, but not necessarily to support, the man of God.
Additionally, I take issue with men who make merchandise of the Word of God. I believe it is appropriate to attain wealth as an author or itinerant speaker. Bishop T.D. Jakes, Pastor Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren, and others have significant bodies of scholarly work from which they derive substantial income.
However, there are Pastors who live opulent lifestyles on the backs of their flocks. I know of one Pastor who has so much as to publish a book who has a private jet. Another prominent Pastor who drives a Bentley who just managed to recently publish ONE book!
Also, I have mixed feelings about the sale of sermons to supplement income. I like the model adopted by Andrew Wommack. On his website, you can download any of his messages free-of-charge OR you can purchase a CD/DVD set. But the messages are available to anyone with an internet connection! You can also partner with him via this venue.
In conclusion, I am in complete agreement with financial support of those who preach the Gospel. I just think there should be better stewardship. Better stewardship would go a long way toward restoring trust in the Church and the men and women of God who serve as leaders in it.
First and foremost anything that I may know and strive to know I give all credit to God.
I am definately going to get that sermon you mentioned, I am always seeking to improve.
I beleive we are on the same page.
Levitical preisthood i beleive we can consider that a type and shadow, maybe.
In first or second Peter the bible calls us a Royal Preisthood. I beleive that includes
man and woman.
you posted so many things that I really can appreciate.
I myself Own my own business and my wife owns her own business. Not because
of a tent making ministry.
I really beleive that the church you pastor should support you as pastor including financially.
I work because my church cannot afford to support my family, so in that case I will not burden
I make my own money. God has blessed me and my wife to own our own business.
God is first every where in our lives.
As far as sermons on cds, dvds and books. I beleive God inspired the man of God to labor to
prepare his sermon. ( remember these tools are a product of your laboring ) I think the man
of God should benefit from it.
I am a tither and a offering giver. Anyone who purchases anything from the ministry as far as
cds, books or dvds that I have labored over. I do tithe off every penny and then some.
In the near future my business will be part of the prison rehabilitation program. Giving former
inmates a chance to truely rehabilitate back into society and be productive.
Now I am already a cheerful giver, in this instance do you think my wife would be happy if all
my income went to this program. We still have to live. Now dont get me wrong if I really
beleive God said do that, me and my wife woulld get in agreement and move.
Truely there are people breaking the backs of their churches. They will have to answer for it.
Now the comment on melchizedek preist, king. I could be wrong but kings do live off the people,
not brutishly though. Now as for the tithe supporting the preist. Remember the model or structure
should be followed. The preist had no inheritance so it was commanded that they were supported.
No inheritance - In other words, because you are dedicated to the service of God, provison must
come from some where. So God instructed that a tithe of the tithe and other designated offerings
should be given to them in the service of God. Remember when the land of cannon was being divided
the the preist and levites if I am not mistaken had no inheritance.
We just call it payroll. Some folks that post get to deep or to opinionated. I just say scripture.
And if I am wrong beleive me I will take correction Because I am responsible for what I teaach.
The issue on material wealth. I beleive pastors can have wealth and still serve God. If we
as preachers can be an example everywhere else, why not in the finincial arena.
I hope I was not offensive and share something of interest.
I knew I'd get a thoughtful reply from you! I framed my note in such a way that it would spur discussion. The one point I was trying to stress is that there are some really genuine men and women of God who have amassed wealth; I have no problem with that, as long as that wealth is built through their gifts and/or talents, and not off the backs of their congregations.
I admire the fact that you and your wife are entrepreneurs; there needs to be more of that in the Kingdom -- especially in leadership. Furthermore, I commend you on your work with those recently released from prison. Again, we need to see more of that in the Kingdom.
I believe the Levitical priesthood is a type and shadow, not only of our Lord Jesus but, also of our contemporary ministry. However, I think it is stretch of scripture to say the five-fold ministry is the modern-day equivalent of the Levitical priesthood without effectively subjecting ourselves, and those souls of whom we are stewards, to the law.
I, too, am a student; growing in grace and wisdom through Jesus Christ. As long as the Lord permits me to draw breath, I expect to remain in a constant state of learning.
All told, we are, indeed, on the same page!
By the way, you speak with authority and not offense! I've learned, too, if someone says something to or about me that is untrue, I let it roll off my back. If it is true, I've learned to repent, apologize (if necessary), and say "ouch" if it hurts!
Well sir, let me say levitical preisthood. The law was in place to guard His people and
their hearts not bring them out of bondage to another bondage. The Probelm comes when folks
are not submissive to God. Then the yoke is hard.
But now Christ died and rose from the dead. His yoke is easy and his burden light
because of the work on the cross. In other words submit to what is written and you
can't go wrong.
I do agree we cant compare ourselves to levitical preist, thats not what i am saying.
I am saying look at the structure or infra-structure God has set up. I beleive it can be
followed with the grace of God.
For instance levitical had different functions. There are those who dealt with the law and offerings. You also had those who kept up the things of the temple, those who played instruments etc... the tribe of levi played a big role in maintanng the things of God.
Most ministers in church dont understand just because you are an associate minister
you can do more than just preach, maybe you are to minister over the media ministry, or
the prison ministry, no one like to clean but I beleive a minister should be head over
each department in church not just preaching duties. Thats what our pastors are for
until he calls on someone to preach a time or two.
I think its a good model. Because it creates balnce, structure and discipline in our
ministers staff. And when its done right no one should suffer financially. They didnt then
and we shouldnt now. We have a better covenant an everlasting covenant.
I hope i did not go to far out in the deep. I try to keep it as plain as possible.
Things do not require more faith than we think we have. The bible says all we need
is the faith the size of a grain of mustard seed and we can move mountains.
cant wait to hear from you.
I need the name of the sermon on wommacks site.
I thank god for you. I can always count on you fro a thoughtful, Biblically sound answer. I hope you didn't think I was accusing you of comparing the contemporary, five-fold ministry to the Levitical priesthood -- because I wasn't!
I thank you for your anointing and your wisdom. I think I have a lot to learn from you and I think the Body of Christ is benefiting from the teaching God has imparted to you.
As for the deep, bring it on, Preacher! God gave my Pastor and I a vision three years ago about not only venturing out into the deep, but swimming against the current as well. I have my full diving gear ready at all times and I'm always prepared to delve deep into the things of God.
I will be sending my contact info to you privately -- I look forward to speaking with you!
Mr.Day writes:"As for the deep, bring it on, Preacher! God gave my Pastor and I a vision three years ago about not only venturing out into the deep, but swimming against the current as well."
Young Man You have no idea how deep the Well of Adonai goes, Really until the idolatry gets out of the way The Shekinah will not bring it forth...
The few tidbits I did put out to you you shunned instead embracing the Superficial..misconstructed..and filled with Hellinistic proto agnostic understanding that presently you are immersed in~~~Swimming against the current may be to invest some time in seeking the historical roots of your family and when it connects to Israel...let me know...We then can find the true path ~Out of Her"
Shavuah Tov /Yaakov
Why are yall boasting about the knowledge that of you have when the school for and study and did research on...at this point is it about God/Elohim or yourselves, what manner of behavior is this; according to the word of God boasting is a sin.
James 3:5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire.
James 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil
Beth Sue writes:"James 3:5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire.
James 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil~~" Beth Sue James /Yaakov was the leader of the Sect for thirty years Yes? Sadly, I can only guess there was far more as it is with the Rebbe of a Sect like that would have far more to write about However look closely at James writing.... He embaresses most modern christianity Because with a little Hebrew culture understanding and knowing the way that Rabbis and Sages of renown speak and write It is obviouse that He is Torah Correct...
"Show me your deeds without.... and I ( James) will show you my Deeds with Torah Observance"
and because Rome thought it would do THEM well they burned [ Like in the movie Ferinheight 451 ] Burned all the books/ scrolls of historical importance...to validate their propaganda all the more~ Howwever the Torah of YHVH was not destroyed
The teaching Basis for what James is writing is the issue of the Yetzer harah"~~ the Taming ~if you will of the Evil inclination within..
It is our driving force in a man, the sex drive, the hunt factor..go out and bring in the provision back in those days when Socialism did not bring us a safeway on everycorner.LOL
When we were in touch with the Master creator in and through us as Servants tending the soil and Seeking HaShem daily.
Humility is a lifetime journey for a pious sage and when he finds the vestibule of Heaven within..he still feels like he has yet to obtain purity.
Yet HaShem sees his service and intent for Torah which is the Life breath of Adonai' to all His children.