That is not true. Pastors are paid BIG TIME in many different denominations of Churchianity. The most crooked are the one getting paid the most. They even take from old ladies on Social Security and single moms. There is no end to their TAKING. The drive big cars, wear fancy suits and living big homes at the people's expense. GARBAGE! I do not feel sorry for anyone who does not have the spiritual insighted to expose such madness. The Messiah will soon come can expose and exterminate all false teachers.
I am not saying this of you. I do not know you. My point is that it is not true that the people do not pay BAD PASTORS. Are you calling Jimmy Swaggert a GOOD PASTOR? Are you saying that gay pastors around the country who get caught sodomizing kids are GOOD PASTORS? Many of those men were getting paid BIG BUCKS EVEN AFTER THEY GOT CAUGHT!
So I hope you are one of the GOOD ONES who RETURN the excess to the needy in the Congregation as it is written in the Bible and instead of giving it to the Cadillac dealer.
I am not sure if you where responding to me or not however I would like to respond to your comments. I certainly agree with what you said. I believe that alot of Pastors today are not spiritual leaders they are spiritual pimps.
Do not get e wrong I drive a nice car, I wear talior made suits, my wife is blessed to stay @ home based on the benevolence of the people in which I serve. I also think people need to understand that Pastoring is not just preaching on Sunday Morning and teaching on Weds. you can say what you want to But the Pastors car, dosent run on faith, His rent is not paid by faith, his insurance is not paid by faith, his family dosent eat by faith, and unless they want him to come to church naked he cannot buy clothes on faith.
I have read alot of the comments on this topic and alot of you have quoted scriptures left and right but noone broke down the fact that in all actuallity Mal. was chastising the people about thier giving in tithes and offerings, all Mal was saying if you will rob the man of God who is laboring on your behalf you will rob God in tithes and offering.
Tithes where never meant to take care of the Church Tithes where meant (Are) to take care of the Man of God. All I am saying is this you can be so spiritual but not practical. On the Spiritual side I believe many men and women of God would do it for free on the Practical THEY CANT.
I know Pastors who have lost thier churches because they had a day Job. And unfortunately it's not easy to work a 9-5 and still try to effectively Pastor a church. Closing. There was a survey done with Pastors who just Pastor and those who work a 9-5.
The Pastors who just Pastored had churches with major ministries and altough they all whee not larg churches they where progressive. And those Pastors who worked had stagnated ministries Why because the Leader really had no time for the ministry.
Any Pastor who pastors a church that will even allow him to Pastor for free in my eyes ought to check the peoples loyalty, and make sure he's not being used(Pimped) And I dont need anyone coming to quote scriptures its REALITY Pastors have to eat and Live as well
You said: Tithes where never meant to take care of the Church Tithes where meant (Are) to take care of the Man of God.
This video is food for thought. Tithes are not to take of the preacher as some suppose. Even under the levitical law, tithes were for the tribe of Levi, the poor and the widows. Please do a detailed study and you will find some shocking revelations. If you wish I can assist you with this.
I have seen this before however I have done exstensive research as well. Im not knocking this but I will say maybe it is my Baptist/COGIC up bringing but to many scriptures allude to the fact of the tithes taking care of the Pastor/Priest and offerings for the up keep of the church.
I have been preaching going on 22 years and I have been Pastoring for 17 of those years I have Pastored 4 churches and two I am the founder of.
Again we can quote scriptures all day long but unfortunately alot of the comments are not reallity nor practical.
I am only blessed because I bless the people of God. I get sick of foke talking about how the Preacher drives and dresses and lives. Listen it's not the Pastors fault if people in his congregation are not driving living well ETC.........So he is supposed to live low because some of his members do.
Dont think so. "Dont be so heavenly minded till your no earthly GOOD" so wat happens when the Pastors lights are off and he has no gas to get to church or to the hospital. I do believe that again some Pastors are spiritual Pimps but for those of us who are over worked and under paid and have not had a vaction in YEARS and marriages are challenged cant stand peoples ideas of he should do it from his heart. Hell you shouldgive from your heart. Whats from the heart should reach the heart. Its the responsibility of both the preaher and the church to give. And if the Preacher messes up the money let GOD deal wit him and everybody else get some where and lt God be God.
The Bible says Give and it shall be given unto you good measures press down and shaken together shall MEN give unto your bossom. In other words Jesus was saying to the disciples you do wat your suppose to do for God and he will cause the people to give to you. People always say my reward is in heaven and thats sooooooooo true however rewards and Payments are different.
The people get up and go to work everyday and expect a check on the 1st & 15th and the preacher should get a check as well because outside of the preaching and teaching. The church dont run by itself or dose it. Somebody is gonna finda scripture and twist it so will someone be practical for once
You are incorrect again. That tithe is not JUST for the Pastor. The tithes was ORIGINALLY from the Levites, the orphans, widows and the stranger (homeless sojourner/ visitor). They all used to eat together. This is in Deuteronomy 14.
Ahhh...but I guess in the NEW Covanent, God has CUT OUT the other needy of the congregation. Okay...I got it now. Thanks for the correction, bishop (I think?)
The truth is that the reason that pastors do not work a 9-5 is because they want to control everything. The bible divides the labor. That is why there is NO RECORD of any "local pastor" getting paid in the New Testament. And do not compare yourself or any "local" pastor to Paul. Paul had local pastors and elders (falsel called deacons). They shared the responsibility. There was no reason for them to not have a job.
You are WRONG! The tithe is NOT JUST for the pastor. Deuteronomy 14:29 says ALL OF THE NEEDED get the tithes--not just the pastor. And, Malachi 3 is speaking to the Preists who were STEALING the tithes and NOT giving placing it in the storehouse. Instead, they were consuming it!
And this is what is happening now! If the pastors were putting the tithes IN THE STOREHOUSE, tithe-paying Christians would not be getting put out of their homes when they lose their job. They could go to the storehouse. We learned this practice with Joseph in Egypt and who he saved Israel from famine. Now, that there is famine, nothing is in the storehouse. WHY? Because the stewards of the storehouse have not put anything there for when people need it. That is what it is for.
And if we open our Bible, the congregations is supposed be supported with the "bli" and the "mass" (in hebrew). It is a set-tax determined by the High Preist that each person pays to keep up the Temple and its service. But, we do not go to the bible for that information. We make up our own practices.
-Don't collect all Pastors with wealth into a bag and slap "thief" on the label before you properly sort them out. Not all that wear the priestly garments are thieves, that includes the ones that are well paid. I would make a special note of saying that Aaron was first robed in the FINEST of garments with the BEST of gold (NO SILVER MIND YOU!!!) after the commandments of GOD.
-The Bible speaks of how the priests were to be taken care of when speaking of the money in the Book of Nehemiah:
Nehemiah 12:44 "And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited."
Nehemiah 13:10-13 "And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field. Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place. Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. And I made treasurers over the treasuries, Shelemiah the priest, and Zadok the scribe, and of the Levites, Pedaiah: and next to them was Hanan the son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah: for they were counted faithful, and their office was to distribute unto their brethren."
NICE TRY! You are speaking to a Torah-keeper. The Levites (which the pastors ARE NOT) only took what THEY NEEDED. They had NO SAVINGS at all. Instead, they had faith in God to fulfill their needs from week to week. But, as a "bishop" said recently in their thread, he has to make sure he is not getting "pimped" and that the congregation is "faithful". So, he it going to get his. Good for him. But, that is not according to Torah. I study and live Torah by the Grace of Christ.
In God's Torah, all of the needy are taken care of. No strong able-bodied man is hogging the money. We take care of the old ladies and the single moms LIKE THE TORAH SAYS. Is that being done in your church? I doubt it. If so, it is one of the few.
From what I am gettting from this thread is that, YOUR version New Covenant MAKES NO PROVISIONS for the poor. Just scraps like in the homeless shelters. That is not Biblical. In a Congregation of God, the strong take care of the weak. The freewill offering are on the excess income of each person. WE love and bless each other--not JUST the pastor. We do not hoarde our money. And no person is placed above the others for God is not a respector of persons.
So, open your bibles and lets us live and conduct ourselves as Christ instructed us! The money must be SHARED. If this is not possible, it is likely your church is not living by the Word of God. That is why there is not enough and the poor are struggling.
And make sure you view the video that someone posted above. It is good. That is who WE--who keep Torah by means of Christ--DO THANGS!
First of all let me make something clear. I am the highest giver in our ministry. and not only that I am the last to get Paid noone that comes through the doors of Greater Deliverance Temple will leave empty nor with crumbs.
Our clothes pantry is open every day our food shelf is open everyday all day our counseling center is open 24/7 again If the pastor aint doing the work hell he shouldnt get paid.
Secondly I never said that the tithes where ALL for the Pastor not once did I say that I did say that it wasnt to sustain the church neither. But outside of all of the holy rhetoric that is being passed around the Pastor is WORKING. And the reasons Pastors dont work 9-5 is because the majority of us are trying to do ministry.
You can carry to torah all day long but until any f you walk in the shoes of a Pastor nothing you say really carries any weight (Outside of properly quoted scrptures)
Why has noone quoted the scripture in Prov. A wise man leaves an inheritance for his childrens children but I guss that dosent go for the Pastor.
Some of you all need to check how you think for real.
I know I'm speaking to a Torah-keeper, which means that I most likely hold the advantage here! LOL (no offense here, just joking around!)
It is clear that most if not all, that hold strong to OT traditions do not value the ministry of NT offices set up by JESUS' Apostles. Even more interesting to me is the consistent fact that Torah-keepers hardly ever want to answer back to strong arguments when the opponent uses the very OT scriptures that they cling to. The way it is always presented, you seem to have a problem with Apostles, Bishops, Pastors, ect taking to heart scriptures such as Mark 10:29-30 Luke 6:38, 1st Corinthians 9, and sayings like "GOD take pleasure in the prosperity of HIS people". True, Pastors are not to hoard all the money and supplies, but we are not to hold it from them either. The leader's job is the hardest job, especially when you are on call 24 hrs a day, and GOD FORBID YOU HAVE YOUR OWN FAMILY TO WORRY ABOUT!! No one cares enough to say "Bishop, I'm glad you were there when foreclosure loomed over my home", or "Pastor, thanks for coming to me when no one else would come during my court case". The Pastor is not a mortgage broker, or a lawyer, but the saints often call them either before or directly after speaking to the hired pros. All this and more, and you have an issue with compensating the Man/woman of GOD?
The Bible says "honor GOD with your substance" (Proverbs 3). We honor GOD by being willing to be the vessel HE uses when people often say the famous words "THE LORD WILL PROVIDE". Stop leaving it up to GOD to drop manna from Heaven all over again.
You said, “It is clear that most if not all, that hold strong to OT traditions do not value the ministry of NT offices set up by JESUS' Apostles.”
First, it is immature to attempt to group a person with others in attempt to minimize their opinion instead of dealing with the fact. I am not debating religious practice (which does not matter). I made no mention of any “practices”. That has nothing to do with the subject. I only referred to the actual teachings that God gave in the Bible concerning the financing of the Church.
Second, the words of the God are not traditions—they are the Truth and do not change as He does not change.
You said, The way it is always presented, you seem to have a problem with Apostles, Bishops, Pastors, ect taking to heart scriptures such as Mark 10:29-30 Luke 6:38, 1st Corinthians 9, and sayings like "GOD take pleasure in the prosperity of HIS people".
You have taken my words and spun them. I have not said or intimated any such belief. My point was and remains that the Churches do not do financing as the Bible commands. They have invented many practices to suit their interested. I do not care if that works for them. My point is they should not “pretend” that they are doing as “Thus saith the Lord”.
The Bible described the position of pastors and deacons and every other office. All of those offices are in the Torah. It is just that the New Testament translates them to Greek. For instance, the bishops are the elders of the congregation. Paul did not “reorganize” the Church. He changed nothing.
And I also did not say that a person (who happens to serve as a pastor) should not ever receive money. What I SAID is that they there is not one verse in the Bible that says they are to get paid for PASTORING. I have given the verses over and over again the principle that states that servants of the Congregation are to be given money is that they are counted as “the needy”. It is COMMANDED in the Bible—Old Testament and New Testament—that the strong ones of the congregation are to fulfill the needs of the needy in the congregation. If ANY PERSON devotes so much time to the service of the congregation that he cannot work enough to fulfill the needs of himself and his family, then the Congregation is to pick up the tab UP TO THE POINT OF NEED.
The Levites of the Torah did not live above the standard of the people. They also rotated the responsibilities each week. So, yes, the Levitical preists HAD JOBS. We see the same thing in the New Testament which is why Paul set up the various offices. If a person (pastor for instance) is devoting ALL OF HIS TIME to the Congregation, then that is a problem. That is not doing things according to the Word of God. The Bible clearly states that the work is to be divided and the provide a governmental structure to get it done.
So, if the pastor gets paid, so be it. There is nothing in the Bible against that. However, the Bible also says that he is to only take what he needs and the rest is to be returned TO THE STOREHOUSE. That is what it is there for. The elderly lady on Social Security has EQUAL right to the offerings as the pastor or anyone else. That is written in the Bible and what I stand on.
The other option is that the Church creates jobs and determines the pay for the job. No person is to get paid “pastoring”. That is not in the Bible. However, if the spiritual leader does the accounting, then he (or anyone else who does that job) should get paid for accounting. The same applies to the one who cleans the church, cuts the grass, and does repairs or anything else. Counseling is another thing to get paid for. That is not “pastoring”. Those are things to get paid for. There should be a set price for each service visible to all. No one has to take a persons word that they are doing so much for the Church. All should be visible to the faithful. That is what is in the Bible.
Let read this verse before I close.
Eph 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Do you see ALL OF THOSE OFFICES OF THE CHURCH? If a church is in the will of God (as mine is), you will have people in ALL OF THOSE OFFICES. That is a church based on the biblical model. And all of the people anointed for those offices share in the “work of the ministry”. Since we do it that way, no able-bodied man needs to suck up the tithes. Instead, we take the money and are able to give it to the elderly and the single mothers and work with the homeless. Our spiritual leader has a FULLTIME JOB as does every other able-bodied man because we share the work of the Lord as he commanded us.
So, you guys can do it your way. But, the way we do it, we can help more people—the ones who really need it. The same money you guys pay Rev. Porkchop goes to the elderly and single parents in our congregation.