I wasn't saying pastors should get no compensation, but rather that the answer to every financial question in ministry shouldn't always be 'make the people pay for it.' I am saying that the church would do well to create businesses that support the ministry and the minister, if he is to commit himself full-time.
Giving is good and right, but we should empower the people to do so rather than just try to make them feel obligated. Consider, for example, what would happen, if a ministry or group of ministries were to produce the first self charging electric car? Several hundred billion dollars would be raised for ministry, jobs would be created, and entire ministries could be sent out to win the lost.
Is such a thing possible? Absolutely...I know of a ministry which is working on that kind of technology so that the Body will have its own energy sources.
We talk about ministry costing money, but rarely do we speak of developing ways to become independent of the world financial system, or even the world's food system, and meanwhile, the world financial system is tightening the noose on families everywhere, and the food supply is being deliberately reduced (there are places which used to grow food which are now forbidden to do so by the UN!)...
I say this as someone who is overseeing ministries in several countries and not taking a dime from them, because the Lord called me to feed His sheep, not to have them feed me. It's good for people to take care of their pastors, but it's an abomination in the sight of God for one man to enjoy a lavish lifestyle while most of their congregation is broke, year after year. A false balance is abomination. (Proverbs 15:1)
So, people, look out for your pastors, but pastors, lead your sheep to a place where they can actually afford to do more for you without it always having to be a sacrifice.
It's time we stop asking whether pastors should get paid and ask how we ought to provide for the whole body. With companies already making workers get microchips implanted in their hands, it is high time the church develop its own financial system, its own energy sources and its own food supply.
Some pastor don't want to be hired so they would refuse a wage.
If preaching the gospel is your rightful calling you will do it for free, the pastor is going to have to make his income taking on another job. Some pastors do this for churches that cannot afford to pay for a pastor. Most pastors do more than just lead their church in worship on Sunday mornings without pay. Pastors are psychiatrist who don't charge a fee. Pastors sometime spend a lot of time at hospitals to see folks through surgery & illnesses. There are bills to pay, legal and tax work to be done. Most pastors have to pay off their debt from college & grad. school. Pastors put in 50 to 70 hours a week, so they can care for the Shepherd sheep.
Just remember, when you preach the gospel, you make the gospel of Christ without charge, that you abuse not your power in the gospel.
All of you brothers & sisters already know this, I'm posting this for someone, like myself, that is new to the forum and may not know how a pastor earns their living.
There are a variety of ways a pastor can be paid.
Many smaller congregations don't have the income necessary to pay a full-time pastor. One solution is for the denomination to pay a single pastor to perform his duties over several small, often rural, churches; the funds can come from a pooling or partial pooling of the offerings of those churches, or through a fund supplied by the denomination itself. Other congregations have pastors that are not paid staff, either by choice or by necessity. These pastors work full-time like anyone else, and perform ceremonies and services on weekends.
Larger congregations are able to finance a pastor's salary through a portion of offering income. Some may sub-divide the pastor's pay into a number of different budgetary line-items (for example, housing may be a separate item for congregations that do not maintain a parsonage), and each line-item may have a silghtly different accounting "bucket" to pull from.
Apostle Medina, you have an excellent point! The Apostolic anointing not only gift and empower you to plant Churches but be entrepreneurial. Ever heard of the legal business called Pre-Paid Legal? Its a sort of "legal insurance", provide a lawyer virtually at anytime for only low payments (example: pay $25 a month and for certain cases to come up, you wont have to pay ANYTHING, other cases only half the going rate, free wills done, free consultation, ID theft shield, ect.)
Interestingly enough, this business was created by a Christian man, and when a person works it, and is successful, it provides both financial freedom and totally free time to a minister! IMAGINE if a minister utilizes such means or even creates such.
As for the tithes, tithes are simple put the "bare minimum" of what we should be giving back into the Kingdom. Consider the tithe "Kingdom Taxes" or "Membership Dues", and the offerings "Kingdom Investments". The fact is not everyone gives willingly, or gives at all. If no one gives, the brunt of the ministry costs will fall on the ones that have a heart for GOD's business. Therefore, tithes are necessary.
I had something very interesting happen to me some time ago, I was at church and the head usher asked me to help with the offering that Sunday Morning, Now, they had pleanty of help and didn't need me so I wondered why he called on me.
After collecting the offering we all went into a room together and were instructed what to do.
He told me to count the contents of the envelope. Now, not ever doing this before I thought I was to open the envelope so I did. As I got ready to put my hands on the money inside the tithed envelope the head usher told me no just count the number written on the envelope. But what God showed me inside this envelope I will never ask why do we have to tithed again. As I open this envelope I saw a baby embryo just like a baby in the earliest stages of developement. Just like a tiny seed during the early stages of development. I was in such astonishment I couldn't speak. That day I learned that a tithed is diffenitly a seed that will grow to it's full protential some day and the blessing will come from our Father who will give the increase for He is the only one who can bring it to it's full measure. And that tithed is between the person who tithed and God for it is their child, their seed that will mature some day and be a great help to them. So now when I tithed I have no doubt that I too have a seed that will mature some day and God will give the increase and I shall be blessed with the windows of heaven pouring me out a blessing I don't have room for. As for who gets paid to do work in the Kingdom is up to the Father for He said a workman is worthy of his hire.
I am embrassed to read some of these comments on this subject, people are worrying about how much money the preacher makes rather than worrying is the body of Christ being edified; Jesus told Martha," you worry about the wrong thing." It shames me to read about people who worry about money more so than making disciples. Salvation is free, but to carry the word of God to teach and train others and support missions cost money. But you worry about how much the pastor earns. Does anyone considers the family, the hardships that pastors families go through for the body of Christ. Lets see do you get out of bed at four in the morning because sister brown dress is in the hospital? Do you go to court to help Bro. Greens wayward son from going to jail? Do you spend time with community leaders about the concerns of the people both in and outside of the church. Do you deal with the drunk and the drug addict that lays on your heart? Do you council the young teenage girl whose cutting herself, or is pregnant and wants an abortion? Do you tell people that God loves them even when you know they don't want to hear it? Have you ever have to put up with members who been at the church for generations and has not did anything to glorify God since being there? Did you ever proside over business meeting and they fight over the color of the new carpet and rather than voting for the money to give a mission funding to put on a tin roof in Africa so a growing church can be out of the rain.
What I am saying is this if people actually know and if the pastor was able to talk about the things he or she does for the congregation and the community, you be wondering how they put up with it and that they need a raise. For those who foolishly thinks that the church is a democracy and not a dicothomy then they are sadly mistaken. If anyone that has a pastor that doesn't have a heart for the people of God then your getting ready to drink the Kool-Aid. I had the pleasure and task of being an armour bearer to a great man of God Rev. Dr. Bobby Moore of Astoria Baptist Church in Astoria New York.
I watch him put up with things that would make me scream, but he taught me you must keep a heart open for Gods people. They don't mean what they say, and they don't always say what they mean.I had the pleasure of being under his teaching for seven years and his armour bearer for four and I seen him do those things that I discribe earlier and I did those same things for him, when his body was too worn out to go on.
I believe Pastor Lorenzo Edwards put this out there to show those who read this where their hearts truly is concern about and again like Jesus told Martha, " Martha you worry over the wrong things, but it is Mary who has gotten the good part and besides is not God who gives the increase? Beloveds get the good part. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness and all these other things shall be added unto thee".
Minister Ron Richardson
I understand your reply towards some of the comments, but most people in the church don't really understand what Pastors go through to keep the church in order, they just come to service and see the finished product of only that week of planning. Because that is not their job, so they don't have a clue what you Pastors are going through. I can hear the frustration in your heart and the sincerity, but you must understand some of us just don't understand. As you said most of the time you Pastors don't talk about all the detailed situations you are going through, so the congregation just asumes everything is alright. Even though some of us see what you are going through and we are in prayer for you. Many difficulties strengthen the being, having no difficuties ruins the being.
Difficulties are designed to make you to mature and intergrate your personality, so learn to bear insult and injury
and don't take humiliation as a personal affront, but as an opportunity to practice patience, forgiveness, and humility.
I really didn't want to reply to this, until I read a post asking the series of questions inferring that a pastor has a lot of work. What came to mind is and...? I have been reaching out to those many pastors (not all) overlook, or deem unworthy. I have been getting calls all hours of the night, stood in front of judges on young people's behalf, slept in the hospitals, sacrificed monies to feed, given without asking, volunteering in missions, helping churches raise monies via Christian plays, free performances and much more, for many years and I have to say, I will do it again, and again, and again, and never complain because the joy I get from helping others can not be expressed. Of course I do rethink which church I sew into. Not once have these churches offer to pay me for my services. They always have some hardship, but they want the plays, and the monies that follows.
They want to use your gifts until you are burned out and never offer you a stiphen, or donation. I wrote an original play for a pastor based on a sermon they she preached. (I've done it for many pastors) I directed it, trained the actors, planned meal and trained the hostess (all from the congregation), paid my friend a dance instructor to choreograph the dance numbers, and put on a quality dinner play for this congregation of 250, sold most of the tickets myself, did the press release, the play books, the tickets, the flyers, you name it. It was a one night dinner and an evening matinee. The church received free and clear minus the some small printing cost, over 12,000.00. I provided the props, I borrowed the lights, got singers to volunteer, and I barely got a thank you. Not to mention I was not offered a dime. I'm not upset about it, but it a good example of how the church takes, takes, and takes, but never gives. I was struggling with what I believe was God pressing me to come out of corporate and I didn't really get counsel from the pastor. I left becasue I was being pressured out after 20 years with this company b/c the new guy didn't like my honesty. I was an excellent tither b/c my income was nice, and my gifts were not only given in theater, business, writing, speaking, marketing, but I also gave freely monetary wise. When I didn't get the job I thought was in the bag and found myself in need, this same church where I'd tithed for over 3 years nicely and given generously, and sowed unsparinly in labor and fund raising, offered me a government box of food, that I really didn't eat or need. I was not hungry, I had not asked for a handout, I needed some guidance and help b/c I had not been in the job market for over 20 years. I refused the food, not with hostility but with humility, b/c I don't eat canned goods and I don't eat beef or pork, so pork -n- beans and hotdogs was not a help, I was told I was too proud. I laughed and cried inside b/c pride was not an attribute I wore.
Helping others, never stopped, being used by ministries that pays for outsiders big bucks and rape their own, but expect to be paid for spreading the good news of God; well I don't. I pray and seek God b/4 I sow in this way free to a ministry. But if they can pay, absolutely! I love working with the crack heads, prostitues, young people seeking God without knowing it, and If I could do this full-time without having to work, I would, becasue the people on my heart have no money to give and have little or no hope.
I watch pastors buy up radio stations, businesses, start schools that further handicap our youth by not teaching them, just collecting the grant monies, and the paid tuition. I see these pastors promote fund raisers with big names and people flock in with God said 20 people will give 1,000 dollars, sleeping in 5 star hotels and being waited on like a God, robbing the poor and having no remorse knowing many sacrifice their last listening to messages of money commeth, or looking for some magic God rather than salvation.. I say move so the people in need can get some of that money that commeth.
One of my students said to me when I was encouraging him not to quick school that he didn't need a degree, he would be a pimp. I responded and land in jail. He said, no not that kind of pimp, a preaching pimp, they are living large. I watched this one pastor grow from the sacrifices of people making 8.50 an hour and iving in one room apartments, while they (preachers) purchase homes under a non-profit covering, and drive the benz, the hummers, and lexis, and wife drives the lexis and children drive a lexis, and travel all over the place, and raising funds for outreach in Africa (not all the money going there) but when one member needed a cover for 1 month which with their income of 8.50 a mere 800.00 would have done it, she was told that he could loan her 50.00.
This a member of 6 years, who tithed faithly, sacrificed until it hurt and only sought a loan, not a gift. This sent her back to the streets and she swore off churches.
The pastor that slept with the young girls, inpregnated one and the church paid the family off to keep it hush hush, struck again and this time was brought down, at least for a minute. He was what the systems called a repeat offender, but he was never dealt with by the church because he could bring in the money and the members.
I don't know if a pastor should get paid, and I'm not against it, but where is the heart for the people? Don't act as if his work for Christ is such a hardship, becasue I tell you, there is no greater joy I've found than hearing a child call you and say to me, I'm ready to try it your way, help me. And to be able to help that child through Christ, no money needed, no praise, just the pure joy of doing my reasonable duty is amazing. If the ministry is a chore for any pastor, then get out. Look at your example. Be careful when you look to man to reward your work rather than God. If you believe in God's just reward, then you will gladly sow to the flock. But most entertain and shuck and jive and tickle ears...Can't you see the people are perishing b/c of lack of knowledge. Billions and Trillions of churches...what the heck are they teaching?
How long will it be b/4 the people are prepared to go outf? Why are all our young black men in jail? Invest in prison reform and finding these men and women a new begining and helping them regulate their minds. Give them hope and skills to survive. I work with a WHITE prison ministry that does just that. It's not a big church, it's a husband and wife team. They've invested out of their pockets and gotten some small grants, but mostly the prisoners work to build, right on this couple's property. That's ministry Jesus' way.
You know the love of money is what causes the problem. You can't have it all, you can't take it with you, so quit trying to get it all. Jesus didn't lead by this example. Have you ever wondered if your example of always wanting more money and cars and things, and suits, for your wanted down messages is part of the problem with our young people? Wonder no more, it is! They believe success is measured by the bank roll, or car, or clothes, and looks; character, ethics, love, value, family, compassion these are of no importance. Just look at all our leaders, in and out of the church. If you are called of God, ask Him how you should support yourself. He said if He be lifted up, He would draw all mankind unto him, not a larger pay day for pimps in the pulpit, not just the people with money, that look to have their eyes tickled, but all! Go ye out....Does it really take all that you take; those of you that are takers and not givers? When learn freely teach, when get, freely give; pastor's included!
How many of you believe in the God you preach? Will you be the one he says to: "Get ye behind me oh ye workers of iniquity for I know you not." Is that you; do you have your reward seeking fame, praise, and money? I pray daily that God cleans house so that the lost might be saved and all you prosperity progranda spewers and pimps will be revealed, and you will repent and walk in your true calling, or get the heck out of the way. The remnants are coming and the truth will set the captives free and open the eyes of those you've blinded and bound up! (I have a revolving door, my number is listed, and most people if not all have my cell. I never complain, I praise God with tears of joy everytime he uses me to draw, I work tirelessly, free of charge for those that have not to give.) But I have a business, so I don't let the fat preachers try to use me or pimp me. I will no longer cast my pearl among swine.)
A leader should not be the leader of a church and not receiving some type of money however they should also not be using the house of God as their own personal bank. Some of these leaders were broke before they started pastoring and there was good reason for that but when they found that the church was a good way to make money they found a niche, opened a church and are now pimping the people of the church to finance their worldy needs.
There is nothing wrong with becoming rich off of the business you run, even if it is Kingdom business. So long as you do the work required of you by GOD- and for the record, many Leaders go above and beyond their call of duty- a good portion of whats made after ministry expenses is profit for the ministers that actually do the job.
I'll let God call that one. I don't know about above and beyound, b/c the only example I know is Christ, and He's the only one who took the cross for me. That was expected of Him, Hum...wonder what's above and beyound the call for us, hum, Job, lost everything, Moses never saw the promise land or riches, Abraham was to go without knowing where, and to wait past his old age for a son to sacrice, hum, Thomas beheaded, Peter crucifed upside down, and you get it right? I can't limit what I do, or feel that I can ever do enough for my father and His ministry. But I don't know, maybe for today's disciples helping another is going beyound the call. I've taken to my home strangers, but I'm nuts. I personally beg to differ, but that's the beauty of America, and the beauty of freewill, and wonder of opinions, and the vast complexity of beliefs. Thank God he's God and not us! You go for yours, the poor will be with us always, and so I have plenty to labor for. As for a lot of hardworking ministers, I concur, its just that the one's I've encountered and so many others work hard at things not of the kingdom. I pray my father's will and his kingdom come, what about you? Be Blessed
Oh, I wondered, with such great need and so much sufferings, who has anything left over? Just wondering. I think God wants us to keep it simple, get rich off your own business, but Kingdom business has too many that need, too many homeless, too many losing their homes and families, but if someone needs to justify a form of material gluttony or greed made from the humble givings of the poor, I guess, yeap something for all kinds.
It would be the saints to try to split hairs. Going above and beyond the call may be stepping in and ministering in a place where you weren't exactly called to, but instead filled in where another refused to answer the call. IT HAPPENS ALL TOO OFTEN! Many don't even understand such a concept, and quite a few that don't understand this are the ones that are guilty of leaving their post or not even answering the call. Its like being on the job, waiting for someone to relieve you and NO ONE shows up. You have other things to do that are important, you did your portion, and where is your relief?? Or even worse, working with a worker that is not holding up their end of the job, forcing you too work all he more harder. I can say this because I've been there, and the LORD rewarded me. Why? Because HE unlike many people gives honor where honor is due.
As for the wealth thing, I want wealth for certain reasons:
-I HATE POVERTY! I seen it and don't want to be there. I want to help the poor not be the one saying "help me".
-"Give, and it shall be given unto you...." We often want to be on the receiving end, but I strive to be the one mentioned as "giving unto their bosom". A chef that is able to provide for others never goes hungry. The Book of Proverbs says the borrower shall be subject to the lender. We shall "be the head and not the tail"; "these blessings shall come upon you and over take you if you hearken unto the voice of the LORD and heed HIS commandments....."; "the blessings of the LORD maketh one rich and addeth no sorrow". Why is wealth now called "gluttony"? What is wrong with being wealthy? Are riches on Earth in the list of "don't's" in the Word???