Greetings Pastor I am Bishop Mike Martin I am also the Senior Pastor of Living Water Ministries in St. Albans, WVa. I spend the majority of my time investing in the people of God as pastor and friend, I do not however take a salary though I know it is VERY scriptural to do. I do this because I own a company that provides me a good living by the Hand of God. I also receive offerings when I travell which God uses to bless me. This allows our church to use its funds for outreach purposes. I must reaffirm though it is the churches DUTY to provide for its sheperd.
Bishop Mike Martin
Bishop, I agree with your statement totally and believe that we should be compensated for what we do, but at the same time believe that many have abused the authority thereby making our duity of service profane. Many have simply become hirelings looking only for the monetary benefits. I look forward to the retirement benefits promise by my God when this life of labor is over. I applaud you for your stance and love for the people of God which is shown by your not accepting a salary thereby allowing a greater work to be done. God will provide for His servants who fleece not God's sheep.
I pray that we might be able to establish a line of communication so that we might become a symbol of the Paul and Silas relationship. Be blessed as you continue to truily serve God's people.
Amen Bishop. I totally agree with the way you handle your ministry's funds. Some Apostles/Pastors/Leaders do not have the ownership of a business, and as you said, it is the Church's duty to carry for the leader.
You are not in ministry/pastoring for financial gain. However, the scripture does fully support the church taking
care of the pastor. Yes, I would pastor for free but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't take a financial gift from the church. It
is different from getting a salary per say.
I have a few questions for those who believe that "pastors" should be paid.
1. What verse establishes the office of "Pastor"? I thought Yeshua is the Only Shepherd. So, I need to see the verse that establishes the role of a singular leader of a congregation. Paul established the offices of deacon and bishops (elders) to run the congregations in 1 Timothy 3. I did not see anything about a "Pastor". I need to see that verse.
2. If such a role exists, what verse says HOW MUCH he should be paid?
I ask those questions because the people AGAINST the idea keep quoting Scripture and those who defend it do not provide ANY and just keep saying "the Scripture supports it". Please show us.
If we reject the idea after clear scriptural proof, then that is on us. But, BEING PASTORS and/or servants of the Lord, you should jump at the opportunity to destroy false doctrine with the Word of God. Many eyes are watching this thread. So, let's see more verses and less lip-service. That is a prime reason Christians are so biblically illiterate. They are taught too much religion and not enough Bible. So, VERSES PLEASE!
WELL MY BROTHER , EPESIANS 4;11 ESTABLISHES THE OFFICE OF THE PASTOR AS ONE OF THE MINISTRY GIFTS OF THE LORD JESUS . THE GREEK WORD TRANLATED PASTOR IS THE WORD POIMEN WHICH MEANS SHEPHARD , HERDSMAN AND METAPHORICALLY OVERSEER OR MANAGER OR DIRECTOR OF A GROUP THIS IS SYNONYMOUS WITH THE OFFICE OF A BISHOP GREEK WORD EPISKOPOS , WHICH MEANS ONE WHO OVERSEES ... I DONT THINK WE SHOULD GET CARRIED AWAY WITH TERMS. THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION SHOULD A PASTOR ,PASTOR FOR A FEE IS FOUND HERE 1 Cor 9:7-14
1co 9:7 Who ever goes to war without looking to someone to be responsible for his payment? who puts in vines and does not take the fruit of them? or who takes care of sheep without drinking of their milk?
1co 9:8 Am I talking as a man? does not the law say the same?
1co 9:9 For it says in the law of Moses, It is not right to keep the ox from taking the grain when he is crushing it. Is it for the oxen that God is giving orders?
1co 9:10 Or has he us in mind? Yes, it was said for us; because it is right for the ploughman to do his ploughing in hope, and for him who is crushing the grain to do his work hoping for a part in the fruits of it(NOTE THAT THE PLOUGHMAN SHOULD PLOUGH IN HOPE AND THE THRESHER IN EXPECTATION OF PARTAKING OF THE FRUITS THERE IS NO SIN IN THIS NOTE PAUL USES THIS ANALOGY WITH RESPECT TO MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL)
1co 9:11 If we have been planting the things of the Spirit for you, does it seem a great thing for you to give us a part in your things of this world?
1co 9:12 If others have a part in this right over you, have we not even more? But we did not make use of our right, so that we might put nothing in the way of the good news of Christ.
1co 9:13 Do you not see that the servants of the holy things get their living from the Temple, and the servants of the altar have their part in the food which is offered on the altar? 1co 9:14 Even so did the Lord give orders that the preachers of the good news might get their living from the good
THE LORD HAS DECREED THAT THEY WHICH PREACH THE GOSPEL SHOULD LIVE OF IT . THIS SHOULD BE CLEAR EVEN WHEN THE LORD SENT THE DISCIPLES OUT IN LUKE 10;7 HE TOLD THEM TO EAT WHAT THEY ARE GIVEN FOR THAT THE LABORER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE. HE CALLED THEM LABORERS AND TOLD THEM TO EXPECT TO BE PAID THEIR HIRE.
THE LORD ALWAYS MAKES PROVISION FOR HIS OWN I DONT SEE WHAT THE ARGUEMENT IS ALL ABOUT . WHY SHOULD EVERYONE GET PAID FOR THIER JOB AND THE MAN WITH THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB OF ALL NOT BE PAID? IN PAULS ARGUEMENT HE SAYS WHICH SOLDIER GOES TO WAR ON HIS OWN EXPENSE.
I PASTORED HAVE MANY YEARS WITHOUT PAY BUT IT LED TO FRUSTRATION BOTH FOR ME AND THE CHURCH.
THE LEVITES ARE GIVEN A PORTION BY GOD FOR THE WORK OF THE SERVICE WHICH THEY SERVE IN THE TABERNACLE WHY DO WE THINK THE LORD WOULD TREAT PASTORS TODAY ANY DIFFERENT.
THE THE ISSUE OF YESHUA BEING THE ONLY SHEPHERD I DONT SEE ANY SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS THAT RATHER I SEE PETER CALL HIM CHIEF SHEPHERD 1 PETER 5;4 THE EXISTENCE OF A CHIEF SHEPHERD IMPLIES THE EXISTENCE OF UNDER-SHEPHERDS .
AS FOR THE ISSUE OF SINGULAR LEADERSHIP NOTE THE EVERY BODY IS BUILT WITH ONE HEAD ANY BODY WITH TWO HEADS IS A FREAK AND WILL HAVE CONTINUOUS CONFUSION IN COORDINATION . EVERY ORGANIZATION THAT MUST MAKE A HEADWAY MUST RUN BY A SINGULAR HEAD SURROUNDED BY MANY ADVISERS,GROUP OF LEADERS OR WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE TO CALL THEM . THE CHURCH IS NO DIFFERENT . IT IS LIKENED TO A BODY WITH MANY PARTS .EACH ASSEMBLY IS ALSO LIKENED TO A BODY WITH MANY PARTS .
AS FOR HOW MUCH THEY SHOULD BE PAID ?
SIMPLE ;THE LABORER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE . THAT SHOULD BE JUDGED BY THE DEGREE OF WORK OR RESPONSIBILITY HE CARRIES AND THE GENEROSITY AND APPRECIATION OF THOSE HE PASTORS
This conversation has gone on for such a long time, and it has shown that many do not honor GOD with their substance as commanded in Proverbs 3. King David, father Abraham, and the like have shown that soldiers for GOD's purpose were to be well compensated for their work. These are the spoils of war, and a tribute from the people they protected and served. David nearly killed off a man's whole house whole for not doing such. The wise woman that protected her house from this attack in turn became his second wife.
Those that say no to paying a Pastor/Ministry leader would ask "what does this have to do with Pastors getting paid?" One of a shepherd's jobs is to stand guard and defend the flock, and like wise a Pastor's job is to also do so; Apostle Paul declared himself to be "a defender of the faith", as are all Apostles and leaders of the Church; Apostle Paul said as a soldier "we batle not against flesh and blood...", and again "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal...". Strateia- military service, i.e. (figuratively) the apostolic career (as one of hardship and danger):--warfare. Should not the soldiers be paid for their fighting if this is in fact their "Apostolic career" and military service?
Nice try. Such explanations work only on those who do not know the Torah.
The issue is NOT whether or not a person who happens to be a so-called “pastor” should receive any support at all. The issue is whether he or (God forbid) she should be getting a SALARY specifically for preaching or pastoring.
The fact is that it Bible clearly states what we are to get paid for. Preaching or pastoring is not one of them. So, the verse you posted are good. But NOT EVEN ONE of them applies to “pastors”.
God—Himself—states how servants of the Most High should be paid in the Torah. All of the pastors go to the Tanakh (falsely called Old Testament) to point out the need to pay tithes. Well, let’s go there and see what the Creator of the Heavens and Earth says about this.
Deut 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates;
Deut 14:29 and the Levite--for he hath no portion nor inheritance with thee--and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that Yahweh thy God may bless thee in all the work of thy hand which thou doest.
As you can see, ALL who serve fulltime in ministry—NOT JUST PASTORS—are to be supported by the congregation. These people are to receive their sustenance ALONG SIDE the orphans, widows, homeless and all who cannot support themselves. And, they are to take only what they NEED.
We also see the same thing in the New Testament. Keep in mind, no apostle can abrogate the words of the Most High. That would make him a false teacher. I hope you are not one of those people who bellieve the New Testament abrogates the Words of the Most High as stated in the Tanakh (Old Testament). They sure and endure forever. So, let us see how the Apostles dealt with money. You will see that they do not contradict GOD at any time.
Acts 4:32 And the heart and soul of the multitude of those that had believed were one, and not one said that anything of what he possessed was his own, but all things were common to them;
Acts 4:33 and with great power did the apostles give witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.
Acts 4:34 For neither was there any one in want among them; for as many as were owners of lands or houses, selling them, brought the price of what was sold
Acts 4:35 and laid it at the feet of the apostles; and distribution was made to each according as any one might have need.
So, we can see that there is NO PRESIDENCE for placing any particular importance on paying any member of the congregation—including the pastor. Everyone is equal. If church finances were done BY THE BOOK, you would not see a pastor rolling in a Cadillac UNLESS everyone in his congregation had Cadillacs. It is his responsibility to distribute the money to the NEEDIEST. This is why tithes were given to the custody of the Levites. It was not for them to consume. It was given to them since they were nearest to the Lord and would do the right thing with the tithes. And the right thing is to give it to the needy. Since he works fulltime in ministry and cannot make his own living, then he is also one of the needy. So, he is to take an EQUAL share of the provisions given by the able-bodied members of the congregation.
And, since you like to look at the patterns given in the Bible concerning money and ministry, let us look at one more.
The Bible did not set us the ministry to be a FULLTIME job all year round. The Levites ROTATED the responsibilities by families each week in what is called COURSES. There are 24 courses in all. During the WEEK that he served in the Temple and the needs of the people, he got paid. After that week, he returned home to WORK! So, yes, in the ministry that GOD set up, the Levites WORKED the majority of the year.
The modern institution of the “PASTOR” came from the Greeks. They are the ones who had fulltime spiritual leaders that everyone supported. This is not a practice set up by God. In the first churches, each minister was trained in the gospel. There were SEVERAL ministers in each local area or congregation. These are the elders. They call came together and decided what was to be preached with one mind. So, the Gospel was taught by several people and the responsibilities of the congregation were DIVIDED among all of the ministers. As we read above, the Church was lead by the Apostles--not just ONE of them. They ALL PREACHED. If the responsibilities of the church were divided among the ministers of the church, there would be no need to rely on one “Holy” man. But, like the pagans, many have used the ignorance of the people to obtain power. Now, people look to the Messiah AND the Pastors. That is out of order and unscriptural.
Now, if an individual does the accounting and many other services in the congregation on a fulltime bases, then of course he or she should be paid. The janitors should be paid. The secretaries should be paid. The media people should be paid. The grounds’ crew should be paid. But, NO ONE gets paid for preaching. Yeshua and Paul did not get paid and they are the best examples. If a person is truly apostolic and follows after the example of the Messiah and his apostles, then the answer solution to this thread is very simple. Everyone knows it.
Therefore, a person who happens to be a pastor should not get paid for pastoring. It is proper to be paid ONLY FOR the things explicitly stated in the Bible. The Bible gives many examples of things to be paid for. Pastoring is not one them.
You give an incomplete view of the Church, for the Church was not view only from the Hebraic, but from the Greek also. This is proven simply be JESUS calling His disciples Apostles, which was an Ambassadorial office in the Greco-Roman government. JESUS Himself was called "the Apostle and High Priest of our confession". You continued to say someone should not get paid for preaching, but this is only one aspect of ministry. The pulpit is but 25-45 minutes out of seven days, 24 hours of ministry work.
You mentioned the levitical priesthood, but neglected to speak on the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. The difference between the two is that one has an ending and a retirement for the ministers, while the other has no ending, and the ministers are in office till JESUS comes. Even death does not retire a minister of Christ. A revelation of this is found with the appearance of Elijah and Moses reporting and standing before their LORD on what we call the Mt. of transfiguration. So yes, there is a such thing as full-time ministry.
You also ignored the fact that Apostle Paul said as a soldier "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal". Warfare in this verse is the Greek word Strateia- military service, i.e. (figuratively) the apostolic career (as one of hardship and danger):--warfare. No soldier went to war without their expenses being paid for and their mission being fully funded.
Also, the Old Testament was not wrongly named. Testament was another name for "covenant", and it was an old covenant that they followed. We are now in a new testament (covenant).
I didn't even begin to go deeper on the facts of ministers/soldiers being paid in both OT and NT.
wow! This is a deep discussion. Well, I will tell you what this lil' country preacher is doing....First of all, the church I pastor is a small ,growing congregation. Therefore, I would not sleep at night knowing they were spliting funding between church needs and me. There fore I do not receive a salary.. I work and depend on God for my sustenance. Recently, the church did institute a love-offering fund for me where people that feel compelled to bless the pastor may do so at their own discretion. I feel that churches should bless pastors when not financially strained to do so. There is a blessing when you bless the men and women of God. The Old and New Testament are full of examples of people who were blessed because they looked out for God's Man/Woman.