Hey sis Angela, I love the U.K. I spent the summer of 85' in the U.K. with a team of international workers attempting to reach Muslims with the Gospel that was a truly life changing summer. My call to ministry was acknowledged in Southhampton. Anyway, thanks for your feedback. Honestly, I think things have gotten worse in the black church. In the years past, things, particularly theology was a lot clearer. It's been in the last 20-25years that theology in the black church has gotten very murky. I blame the influence totally on the charismatic movement. Word of faith theology has been poisonous. Our modern technological has not given this modern gen any advantages other than being able to find error more efficiently. As the black church we don't need to look forward, we need to reach back and regain the ground we have lost.
With all due respect Rev. what you just state done make sense what you state that in the 'last twenty to twenty five years things have gotten worst and you blame it on the Charmastic movement. I am not sure where you living but the black churches of old are still there they are not the ones involved in the Charismatic movement, these churches at these in the uk have sprang up with a new generaion of people and one cannot characterise them the black church because they are usually mixed or they are run by people who in my opinion never left the world and are this in the world.
You say the black churches were better in the days of old when there was much education ignorance amongst the people, well I guess it was different in that twenty to twenty five years ago the church was very opressive rather I believe in the way the Pharisees were but since then there has been much Spiritual and education groweth within the black church. Of course people who like the idea of everyone meekly following and bowing to the pastors without knowing if what the spastor was of God would be disapppointed with the theological advancement of the congregation members in a black church.
The Characteristic movemovent is a very smal drop in the ocean and does not althogether make up the black churches because the large proportion of black churches are penetcostal, seven day adventist and I believe baptist in places such as the Carribean and America so how can you charaterise the black churches by the action of the Characteristic movement which is not altogether black. The largest denominion of Black churches are Pentecostan and Batist so that would throw your theory our of the door.
Dear Sis Angela from the U.K. thanks for the feedback. One of the rules of feedback is, "Thou shalt not misquote the one who has posted". You stated that I said, "... black churches were better in the days of old when there was much education ignorance amongst the people..." I did not say this. What I said was, "... In the years past, things, particularly theology was a lot clearer. It's been in the last 20-25years that theology in the black church has gotten very murky....". Yes! black churches in my opinion were better off theologically in years past because we were alot clearer in our theological understandings (e.g. the Rapture, the return of Christ, the deity of Christ etc). We had better clarity on the roles of men and women in the church and home. Today, the theological drift due to the influence of Bad theology (e.g. Charismatic nonsense) is very evident both in how we think and live. The so-called "Theological advancement" of our modern leadership is utterly unimpressive. We have forsaken and or replaced the faith (i.e. body of truth) that was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). I beg to differ with you about Charismatic Theology (a.k.a. The word of Faith movement). This pragmatic mysticism has influenced our churches like a North Carolina BBQ smoker. Let me give you a several personal examples:
(1). 30 years ago I was part of a church that called it's leader, "Pastor", today this same brother is called, "Bishop". You may well know that the Charismatic movement has resurrected offices that passed away in the A.D 90's (e.g., Prophet, Apostle).
(2). 30 years ago, women pastors were an anomaly, Today, women pastors are the norm (cf 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1).
(3). 30 years ago my pastoral leader preached the bible expositionally (i.e., verse by verse, paragraph by paragraph). Today it's, "I've got a fresh revelation from the Lord". "The Lord spoke to me last night" etc.
(4). 30 years ago my "Pastor/Bishop" taught Biblically about the Holy spirit, today the Holy Spirit and His ministry is totally misrepresented. The Charismatic movement has a unbiblical understanding of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.
Charismatic theology is spiritual "Junk food", and our black church leaders are serving it up in style, and the sheep suffer spiritual malnutrition.
wow Rev if you look you will see there is no quotation mark, you have said black churches were better in the old days in response to me and I am therefore stating there was much education ignorance. yet you say theology was better. I did not put you in quotation mark. One of the problem I see is we all suppose to have the Holy Spirit in us yet we all get so hot at the least little things. m
Rev. where I am from if quotation mark is used if I intent to quote you but I sumarise what you say is that things were in fact better and I beg to differ that theological education was better unless of course you are only in refence to USA and not black churches as a hole. Preachers of old most preached by the Holy ghose and in a lot of the West Indian and Africian countries you would get prtechjers who preach but could not read. So no theology education was certainly not better twenty to twenty five years age what was better was the Holy Ghost indwelling in people. You certainly wont get preachers in today thinking Laruzus come forth think that meant he was in forth place in the kingdom so Rev I beg to differ, I am not a minister in the church but I was born in the church so for over fifty years have expeience many different preachers and I know that many black people of my age have been lost to the church because they have had the education and realise what they were taught was not correct so many have mistakenly taken not as being lied to instead of looking at the education that those preachers had. Most of those preachers could not afford theology course and Bible college as the people of today.
Rev, There are people all over the denomination being call Bishop it has nothing to do with Charismatic movement unless you are saying that the penetcost and Baptist movements are Charismatic and Rev if that is the case I beg to differ because I have been to both and the Charismatic churches are these new age church.
It seem you appear to be getting Bible studies mixed up with preching , Because 30 years ago you had Bible study that expound verse by verse granted the precher made it sound like he was preching and it was not separate from normal church due to the accommodation space etc where today most now own there own building so having these separated is not a problem the trouble is most people forget to attend the verse by verse Bible study and opt to go church one day a week still they seem to forget the churches now own a building so everything dont have to be cramp into one day.
Unless the black churches in America was better off than other black churches in the other part of the world and I am not so sure they were I would say it is only in the last 20 years that theology education has really taken off in Black churches.
Anyway Rev good day to you and be blessed
Yes sister Angela, churches in my opinion were better in days past not because of Educational credentials but because of how the Bible was treated. Much of todays theological education is riddled with liberalism, charismatic nonsense (Mysticism), relativism and ungodly pragmatism. Back in the day when the preacher preached on the days of creation, he took the bible literally and a "day' was a "day" not "Millions of years". Back in the day the preacher opened the Bible the called a spade a spade. Today, If the preacher opens his or "her" Bible that same "spade" is now called something else. Back in the day preachers called sin a problem, today they call sin a virtue and many learned these skills in one of our lovely Theological cemetaries. I'm not against education, I'm for the right kind of education. Back in the day people filled churches because it was the right thing to do. Today people fill churches for all kinds of pragmatic reasons. I'm thankful though that there is a remnant of men and theological institutions that are still trying to do it right. Angela, no where in 1st Tim 3 is a potential pastoral leader required to have a theological degree, But he must be, "Apt to teach". Today men are teaching from the App.
God Help us
Forgive my spelling mistakes I suffer from Glucoma and the pressure in the eyes appear to be up today which when it is affect my ability to see very well.
Rev it sounds like the problem is your church because there are many penecostal church which has remain penecostal and ypou say Apostles and prophets was resurrected after being pass away, I am not aware
the five fold ministry ever passed away , I would appreciate any Bible reference that state that the office of Appostle and Prophets became disfunctional. Now I am not saying that the people who are calling themselves Apostle and Prophet today are the real deal but again I disagree with you that those office are disfunctional because the Scripture clearly states that those offices was to continue till Christ return and I can give you Scriptures. the Five fold Ministry was one of the subject that I research and wrote a book for my thesis in my theological course at at no time did I come across Scriptures which say they were disfunctional so would appreciated the Scriptures as it would seem I missed them in my research..
This one is easy. I'm not sure which one you are claiming, "Prophet" or "Apostle"? The last Apostle was John and he died on the Isle of Patmos (Rev 22). Which Apostles came after Him, I forget. Don't forget, to qualify as an Apostle you have to meet the qualifications of ACTS 2.One writer writes, "Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone." If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, are we still building the foundation?"
The Scripture is clear the ministry of Prophets and Apostles was to reveal the new revelation of God. The Apostles and Prophets spoke directly the revealed will of God. In other words God spoke directly into the ear of the Prophet and Apostle and They spoke directly to the intended audience. Now that the Bible is complete and the faith has been once for all given to the saints is there need for Prophets and Apostles. Another Question would be, "is God giving new revelation today to His people?
One writer writes, ."... as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16 ) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15 ).
The teachers of the "five-fold ministry," in seeking to "restore" a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.
Were you reared in a black church. Was it not conducive to your spiritual growth and well-being? How did you arrive to your wisdom, and or spiritual state? Your statement : "the black church is also contributing to the poor "spiritual" health of many who are involved." appears racists to say the least. I am deeply offended to think that people are so shallow as to judge a church group based on its race. I know of a lot of white churches where people may be equally impaired (spiritually speaking). Do you suggest we away with the black church so we can gain spiritual health? Is the white church's faith more excellent than our own? I ask this to your shame. I am soooo... disappointed...
Hey Pastor King, thanks for your feedback. I understand that you pastor in MS. I spent lot's of time in MS. Most of my people hail from Canton and Jackson. My mom is buried in a family plot in Canton. In answer to you question, Yes, i was reared in a black church in Akron, Ohio. I've been part of the BC for half a century. "Was the BC conducive to my spiritual growth and well-being". I can honestly say Yes it was, Even though I didn't experience conversion until I was 21 yrs old. My local church experience served as an antiseptic against many of the things that I could of been exposed too and for that i'm grateful. This would be classed with the, "good" that i experienced as part of the BC growing up. Several years later I sought the Lord's direction for my life and was lead to apply to the Moody Bible institute for training. My experience at MBI was life-changing and provided me with tools to further my Christian walk. Of the tools by which I was equipped those that were most helpful were:
1. Hermenuetics (Biblical interpretation)
2. Homiletics (Biblical preaching)
3. Systematic Theology
4. The study of the Cults.
Once I came back to my local church, I could tell instantly that those things that we once held firm were now questionable (For instance, the reliability of Scripture, the Person and work of the Holy Spirit, the Doctrine of the Church, The Doctrine of End time events).
The very ones (Our leaders) who should be the gate-keepers of truth are the very ones ushering in unbiblical error. You mentioned that "White churches" are impared also, NO QUESTION, they are, but the White Church is not my experience or burden. The Churches that I see in the neediest neighborhoods in America that i identity with and am burdened for are filled with people and pastors of color and are in desperate need of Biblical reform. NO!! i don't suggest that we do away with the black church so that we can gain spiritual health. What I suggest is that the BC experience reform, the kind of reform that regenerates sinners, revives the saint and reforms the community. This kind of reform can only come through the sound teaching of God's inspired, infallible Word. See some of my suggestions under my post, "Reforming the Black Church". I believe with all my being that too many of our people (black folk) are suffering from spiritual malnutrition. BBQ pork rinds taste good, but a steady diet of them will "kill you" eventually.
Oh, I see. Then what shall we do about this dillema? Shall we say only, and do nothing? Let's emplement a plan that would deliver the black church. Let us start now.
Pastor Melvin King: If one is black and finds some type of problem in the black church and points it out it is not racists nor is it shallow to question the on going problems with our community. The fact that Rev Todd is black and want to see the black church become all that God has called the church to is a sign of courage and I support him is the questions of the theology and practice of the black church.
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