This is something I shared with Hezekiah but I think it needs greater visibility. This is one of those things you have probably never heard in church because no one who holds belief in the trinity has any true desire to tell you this. Those who know it are either opponents of the trinity or those who simply do not want to give ammunition to an opposing view. So instead of being honest with you they hide things from you. For those of you who did not know this before I want you to really stop and think. WHY? And how many years have gone by where pastors have had the opportunity to make this information public? This is one of those reasons TRUE bible scholarship usually takes a back seat to the TRADITIONS of men and the continuity of man-made religious structures that are built on lies and fabrications.

It seems so clear to you until you know the things that religion wont tell you and doesn't want you to know. But what is the truth? Those who have a love for the truth will care enough to read this thread. Those who don't will simply go their way after reading the title and a little bit of this OP to see what its about. It's about a lie by omission. It's about how people have used whatever weapon is convenient in order to destroy true monotheism and change it into a Babylonian mystery.

Read the post directly beneath this intro and I want to hear your responses. Do you believe it? Do you not believe it? Do you care? Do you not care? Does this have any impact on your belief or will you simply cling to other misinterpreted texts? And if your evidence of the trinity was so strong WHY IS THERE A NEED TO INSERT A LIE? That is my main question. Anyone brave enough to answer that one will earn more of my respect.

Shalom

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The Controversy of I John 5:7 (Johannine Comma)
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The strongest “evidence” for the Trinity in the Bible is the verse 1 John 5:7 or otherwise known as the ‘Johannine Comma’. Unfortunately for the Trinitarians, it has long been known by scholars that it is not part of the original text. It was never in the Greek manuscripts, but surfaced in the Latin translation in the fifth century, after the Trinity doctrine had been accepted. It appears that a ‘gloss’ – a marginal comment in a Bible – had found its way into the Latin Bible. Due to some “unfortunate politics”, Erasmus, who compared various manuscripts in the 16th century to select what he thought was the best Greek text, included the verse against his better judgment in his third edition of the New Testament. From there it found its way into the King James Version, which was based on Erasmus’ text. Christian scholars have also agreed that the verse was fabricated. This is further evident when we compare the King James Version (KJV) with the more modern Bible translations, the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New International Version (NIV), the Good News Bible (GNB), and the Living Bible Version (LBV) and contrast this particular verse within these Bibles:

K.J.V.: “For there are three that bear witness in Heaven, the Father, and the word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one”

R.S.V.: (not included)

N.I.V.: “For there are three that testify; the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood and these three are in agreement.”

G.N.B.: “There are three witnesses; the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood.”

L.B.V.: (not included)

The reason why the ‘Johannite Comma’ is not included in the most recent versions of the Bible is evident when we read in The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible that

The text about the three heavenly witnesses (I John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the NT.1

Further, it also states that

1 John 5:7 in the KJV reads: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one’ but this is an interpolation of which there is no trace before the late fourth century.2

The Eerdman’s Bible Dictionary states an almost similar objection.

1 John 5:7 in the Textus Receptus (represented in the KJV) makes it appear that John had arrived at the doctrine of the trinity in explicit form (‘the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost’), but this text is clearly an interpolation since no genuine Greek manuscript contains it.3

The great luminary of Western literature, Mr. Edward Gibbon, explains the reason for the discardal of this verse from the pages of the Bible with the following words:

Of all the manuscripts now extant, above fourscore in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old, the orthodox copies of the Vatican, of the Complutensian editors, of Robert Stephens are becoming invisible; and the two manuscripts of Dublin and Berlin are unworthy to form an exception…In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the Bibles were corrected by LanFrank, Archbishop of Canterbury, and by Nicholas, a cardinal and librarian of the Roman church, secundum Ortodoxam fidem. Notwithstanding these corrections, the passage is still wanting in twenty-five Latin manuscripts, the oldest and fairest; two qualities seldom united, except in manuscripts….The three witnesses have been established in our Greek Testaments by the prudence of Erasmus; the honest bigotry of the Complutensian editors; the typographical fraud, or error, of Robert Stephens in the placing of a crotchet and the deliberate falsehood, or strange misapprehension, of Theodore Beza.4

Peake’s Commentary on the Bible says that

The famous interpolation after ‘three witnesses’ is not printed even in RSV, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early Trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus.

It was only the horrors of the infamous Church inquisitions which held back Sir Isaac Newton from openly revealing these facts to all.

In all the vehement universal and lasting controversy about the Trinity in Jerome’s time and both before and long enough after it, the text of the ‘three in heaven’ was never once thought of. It is now in everybody’s mouth and accounted the main text for the business and would assuredly have been so too with them, had it been in their books…Let them make good sense of it who are able. For my part I can make none. If it be said that we are not to determine what is scripture and what not by our private judgments, I confess it in places not controverted, but in disputed places I love to take up with what I can best understand. It is the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, and for that reason to like best what they understand least. Such men may use the Apostle John as they please, but I have that honour for him as to believe that he wrote good sense and therefore take that to be his which is the best.5

Conclusions

We have seen how Christian scholars themselves have agreed that 1 John 5:7, the most significant verse in the New Testament to depict the Trinity, was inserted into the text and not part of the original. Hence, with this “Trinitarian” verse being confirmed as a fabrication, where is the justification for the Trinitarian beliefs held by Christians today?

The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, p. 711, Abingdon Press [back]
ibid., Vol. 4, p. 871, Abingdon Press [back]
Allen C. Myers (ed.), The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, p. 1020 [back]
Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, IV, p. 418 [back]
Sir Isaac Newton, as cited by Muhammad Ata’ Ur-Rahim, Jesus: A Prophet of Islam, p. 156 [back]
This is a Great thread Brother, and I could answer your question, but I would also like to see someone step forward, and answer the question you posed. I got great edification in reading the "ENTIRE THREAD" as you suggested. You are right the lovers of the truth will read, and the ones who don not love the truth or want or care to know the truth will go their way, and continue living a lie for no reason what so ever. A verse comes to mind. Matthew 7:13-15 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. I hope that this thread gives the reader the edification he or she needs to awaken from this matrix called the woman, and her golden cup full of the abominations of the filthiness of her fornication, which the kings of the Earth are drunk off the wine of her fornication. Blessed are our eyes for they see, and blessed are our ears for they hear. Praise YHWH for the understanding that we have been given, and I hope that he gives it to the people of this Great Network.

Peace in Jesus

Shalom, in Yeshua
Zealot X:

It was never in the Greek manuscripts, but surfaced in the Latin translation in the fifth century, after the Trinity doctrine had been accepted. It appears that a ‘gloss’ – a marginal comment in a Bible – had found its way into the Latin Bible.

Do you or anyone reading/responding to this thread have access to a copy of the original Greek manuscripts? If so, I would like to read it for myself.

Christian scholars have also agreed that the verse was fabricated.

Who are these "Christian scholars" that you speak of here?

The great luminary of Western literature, Mr. Edward Gibbon, explains the reason for the discardal of this verse from the pages of the Bible with the following words:

I looked up the biography on Mr. Edward Gibbon and here is what I found . . . .

(1737–94), the greatest English historian of his time and author of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

By the time he was approaching age 15, . . . .his father entered him in Magdalen College, University of Oxford, for what he later called in his Memoirs “the most idle and unprofitable 14 months of my life.” Study of early Christianity led him to embrace Roman Catholicism in June 1753, thus barring him from the university. His father swiftly packed him off to Lausanne, Switzerland, in care of a Calvinist pastor, who by Christmas, 1754, had reconciled him to Protestantism. (The Memoirs termed it acquiescence.)

Gibbon remained in Switzerland for nearly five years. He rounded out his classical education, adding the study of logic and Greek to his Latin. Gibbon also lived the life of an English gentleman. He was elected to Parliament in 1774, where he sat for 12 speechless years. Excessively obese, short (less than 5 ft), overdressed, and vain, he was often the butt of ridicule. London's intellectual circles, however, admired his clear mind and absolute control of emotion. Those qualities, plus the skill and beauty of his writing, were acclaimed when the first volume of Decline and Fall appeared in 1776. He ignored outcries against his religious skepticism (he had dealt rather coolly with early Christianity), but he stoutly defended all attacks on his facts.

Mr. Gibbons strikes me as a man of pure intellect and a philosopher. I did not get a sense of him being in any way spiritual as it would relate to knowing God on a personal level. His claim to fame seems to be based on the view of the literary critics, rather than Spirit-led biblical scholars.

What is a Commentary?
A Bible commentary is a book that tells readers what the Bible means. Commentaries do have some bias simply because they are written by humans. Commentaries are useful to make passages haven’t been severely misunderstood or missed an important point. Commentaries should only be read after you have have studied a passage for yourself.

For this reason, I do not place much stock into commentaries especially as proof of scripture interpretation.

Shalom
Chaplain Harris,

Zealot X is right the passage (1John 5:7) is a textual problem in that it is not in any of the manuscripts of the GNT. (Greek New Testament). But you (Zealot X) are wrong when you think that the trinity falls apart because of this passage. Not true. In Fact Dr. Daniel B. Wallace has written on this very subject. Most Bible College and Seminary students know this and understand this and other passages. Good post!
"But you (Zealot X) are wrong when you think that the trinity falls apart because of this passage."

Thank you for recognizing that it is a "textual problem" but with all due respect to your "knowledge of my thoughts" if you read my other threads and posts on this matter you will not be under the mistaken impression that the Trinity falls apart just because of the johannine comma.

Shalom
Who are these "Christian scholars" that you speak of here?

"Daniel Wallace notes that although Cyprian uses 1 John to argue for the Trinity, he appeals to this as an allusion via the three witnesses—"written of"—rather than by quoting a proof-text-"written that". In noting this, Wallace is following the current standard critical editions of the New Testament (NA27 and UBS4) which consider Cyprian a witness against the Comma. They would not do this were they to think him to have quoted it." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_B._Wallace

An Historical Account of Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture is a dissertation by the English mathematician and scholar Sir Isaac Newton. First published in 1754, 27 years after his death, it reviewed all the textual evidence available from ancient sources on two disputed Bible passages: 1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16.

Newton describes this letter as "an account of what the reading has been in all ages, and what steps it has been changed, as far as I can hitherto determine by records",[1] and "a criticism concerning a text of Scripture".[2] He blames "the Roman church" for many abuses in the world[1] and accuses it of "pious frauds".[2] He adds that "the more learned and quick-sighted men. as Luther, Erasmus, Bullinger, Grotius, and some others, would not dissemble their knowledge".[3]

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Historical_Account_of_Two_Notable_C...
Do you or anyone reading/responding to this thread have access to a copy of the original Greek manuscripts? If so, I would like to read it for myself.


Excerpt from Codex Sinaiticus including 1 John 5:7–9. It lacks the Comma Johanneum. The purple-coloured text says: "There are three witness bearers, the Spirit and the water and the blood".

Do you mean an English translation of it? Somone may have but I personally do not. Such things, if you have noticed, are scarce. There are many writings outside the biblical cannon as well as canonical manuscripts. Many of these things do not make it out of the Vatican library.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Comma_Joha...

Greek New Testament published at 1524,
missing the Comma Johanneum
Thanks Zealot X.

This is most helpful. I am confident I can get someone to translate this document for me.

Shalom
Well that was interesting my friend, im oneness(JESUS Only ) all the way i believe ACTS 4 :12 we need JESUS too be saved thats the name that bearing record for me For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Elder Spiegel:

I am not at all questioning the pathway to salvation (John 14:6). I am merely asking for access, if available, to a copy of the original Greek manuscript and clarification of the Christian scholars mentioned in this post.
My dear Chaplain as you know we do not have the original manuscripts, we have copies of them numbering in the 1000's or more for the (GNT). Below is a copy of such. This image comes from Center for the Study of New Testament Manucripts.

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