"THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE"/ The Theory That Jesus Christ Never Existed.
I would like to say first, Christianity is like many other religions, Christianity is a religion of faith. How can you challenge ones spiritual faith, and for those that don't go of faith and need more scientific proof that God exist 2Emc =∆ c2 proves not even science can discount God exist.
But the question at hand is not whether God exist, the question at hand is whether or not The Messiah, The Holy Spirit Jesus Christ ever exist.
The reason I bring up this matter, I like looking at documentary film online, and as I was looking, I came across a documentary called "THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE" it's a documentary that explores the theory that Jesus Christ never existed. It's now on DVD. http://www.thegodmovie.com/press.php
and also check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_IjNPmIEI
Now, I don't know what to make of this DVD because I haven't seen it. I do know this topic have been debated among many religionists and archaeologists & historians and theologians for centuries. I do know, many people feel that Homer's Iliiad is the best evidence, some say The Book of Mormon is the best evidence and there are many that challenge the Book of Mormon as MISTAKES, ERROR, AND FRAUD other proof is a Roman historians named Josephus who mentioned Jesus existence, but many feel Josephus references proved to have been a late Christian interpolation. Many feel jewish men that wrote the bible knew about the prophises of the jewish law and they all wanted out from under roman rule. Revolution in the late 18th century who first suggested that Jesus was a mythical character. 1 Bruno Bauer, a mid-19th century German theologian agreed. In part of his 4 volume set "Critique of the Gospels and History of Their Origin," he claimed that Jesus did not exist. A subsequent next major skeptic was the English theologian John M. Robertson who wrote two books in the very early 20th century. G.A. Wells, a former professor of German at the University of London was one of the most prominent. He wrote a series of five books on this topic, arguing that Paul and other 1st century Christian leaders believed that Jesus had lived in their distant past, perhaps in the 2nd or 3rd century BCE. Michael Martin discussed Jesus' existence in his 1991 book: "The case against Christianity," He is a professor of philosophy from Boston University who examined the major beliefs of Christianity. He concluded that there was insufficient evidence to conclude that Jesus existed. The Gospel of the Q: This is believed by many theologians to be a collection of sayings, "which included moral teachings, prophetic admonitions and controversy stories, plus a few miracles and anecdotes." These had been transmitted orally and are generally believed to have been first written down by his followers circa 50 CE, about two decades after his execution by the Roman occupying army. Many theologians believe that the Gospel of Q was used extensively by the authors of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. The latter gospels have many passages that are identical word-for-word -- or almost so. Yet there is no indication that the two authors communicated with each other or even knew each other. This provides a strong case for Q having existing as a written document. Theologians have attempted to reconstruct Q from the shared passages in Matthew and Luke.
Unfortunately, the gospel does not include any dates for Jesus' life, or any references that can be tied to known events. If Jesus had been executed circa 30 CE, then many who saw and heard him preach would still have been alive and could have verified that the gospel was accurate. But a case can be made that the gospel was assembled out of sayings from the 1st or 2nd century BCE. Paul wrote that he received personal revelations directly from Jesus, presumably in the form of visions. Paul mentioned that a fellow Christian, James, the brother of Jesus, headed up the Jerusalem Church. That would be a strong indicator that Jesus had lived in the early 1st century CE. The Gnostics: The early Christian movement was composed of Gnostic Christians, Jewish Christians, and Pauline Christians. Gnostics in particular maintained that God could never take human form. Some denied Jesus' existence as a historical person. Cornelius Tacitus: He was a Roman historian who lived from 55 to 120 CE and wrote a book Annals, circa 112 CE. McDowell and Stewart accept his writings as a strong indicator of Jesus' existence in the early 1st century CE. Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity. Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. Christian and non-Christian historians of Jesus’ day testified to his existence and miracles. Among those who testified are: Roman historians Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Syrian Mara bar Serapion and Josephus Flavius, the leading Jewish historian of that time, who said in his book Jewish Antiquities:
“Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
In 06' an Italian judge ordered a priest to appear in court to prove that Jesus Christ existed.
Heres the article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/a... .
Yours truly,
Anthony Smith
P.S.
Now, ask yourself do your spiritual faith exist?
Do you have faith in the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ?
If your faith in Christ exist, than Christ exist, that's all the proof you need, your proof is a mathematic formula equation that will never have to be answered because your soul is the solution.
But the question at hand is not whether God exist, the question at hand is whether or not The Messiah, The Holy Spirit Jesus Christ ever exist.
The reason I bring up this matter, I like looking at documentary film online, and as I was looking, I came across a documentary called "THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE" it's a documentary that explores the theory that Jesus Christ never existed. It's now on DVD. http://www.thegodmovie.com/press.php
and also check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73_IjNPmIEI
Now, I don't know what to make of this DVD because I haven't seen it. I do know this topic have been debated among many religionists and archaeologists & historians and theologians for centuries. I do know, many people feel that Homer's Iliiad is the best evidence, some say The Book of Mormon is the best evidence and there are many that challenge the Book of Mormon as MISTAKES, ERROR, AND FRAUD other proof is a Roman historians named Josephus who mentioned Jesus existence, but many feel Josephus references proved to have been a late Christian interpolation. Many feel jewish men that wrote the bible knew about the prophises of the jewish law and they all wanted out from under roman rule. Revolution in the late 18th century who first suggested that Jesus was a mythical character. 1 Bruno Bauer, a mid-19th century German theologian agreed. In part of his 4 volume set "Critique of the Gospels and History of Their Origin," he claimed that Jesus did not exist. A subsequent next major skeptic was the English theologian John M. Robertson who wrote two books in the very early 20th century. G.A. Wells, a former professor of German at the University of London was one of the most prominent. He wrote a series of five books on this topic, arguing that Paul and other 1st century Christian leaders believed that Jesus had lived in their distant past, perhaps in the 2nd or 3rd century BCE. Michael Martin discussed Jesus' existence in his 1991 book: "The case against Christianity," He is a professor of philosophy from Boston University who examined the major beliefs of Christianity. He concluded that there was insufficient evidence to conclude that Jesus existed. The Gospel of the Q: This is believed by many theologians to be a collection of sayings, "which included moral teachings, prophetic admonitions and controversy stories, plus a few miracles and anecdotes." These had been transmitted orally and are generally believed to have been first written down by his followers circa 50 CE, about two decades after his execution by the Roman occupying army. Many theologians believe that the Gospel of Q was used extensively by the authors of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. The latter gospels have many passages that are identical word-for-word -- or almost so. Yet there is no indication that the two authors communicated with each other or even knew each other. This provides a strong case for Q having existing as a written document. Theologians have attempted to reconstruct Q from the shared passages in Matthew and Luke.
Unfortunately, the gospel does not include any dates for Jesus' life, or any references that can be tied to known events. If Jesus had been executed circa 30 CE, then many who saw and heard him preach would still have been alive and could have verified that the gospel was accurate. But a case can be made that the gospel was assembled out of sayings from the 1st or 2nd century BCE. Paul wrote that he received personal revelations directly from Jesus, presumably in the form of visions. Paul mentioned that a fellow Christian, James, the brother of Jesus, headed up the Jerusalem Church. That would be a strong indicator that Jesus had lived in the early 1st century CE. The Gnostics: The early Christian movement was composed of Gnostic Christians, Jewish Christians, and Pauline Christians. Gnostics in particular maintained that God could never take human form. Some denied Jesus' existence as a historical person. Cornelius Tacitus: He was a Roman historian who lived from 55 to 120 CE and wrote a book Annals, circa 112 CE. McDowell and Stewart accept his writings as a strong indicator of Jesus' existence in the early 1st century CE. Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism. The religion was founded in Persia before the birth of Christianity. Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. Christian and non-Christian historians of Jesus’ day testified to his existence and miracles. Among those who testified are: Roman historians Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Syrian Mara bar Serapion and Josephus Flavius, the leading Jewish historian of that time, who said in his book Jewish Antiquities:
“Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and 10,000 other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
In 06' an Italian judge ordered a priest to appear in court to prove that Jesus Christ existed.
Heres the article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/european_football/a... .
Yours truly,
Anthony Smith
P.S.
Now, ask yourself do your spiritual faith exist?
Do you have faith in the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ?
If your faith in Christ exist, than Christ exist, that's all the proof you need, your proof is a mathematic formula equation that will never have to be answered because your soul is the solution.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anthony on
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I would like to say first, this video is what it claims to be an examination.
A History of God examines the familiar images of deity as presented in the Bible and Koran and traces the evolution and interrelation of the various Christian, Jewish, and Islamic interpretations of the divine figure. Through balanced analysis of historic and holy texts and extensive use of ancient art and artifacts, we’ll follow the long road to today’s understanding of God and what the journey–and the destination–have to tell us about humanity and its never-ending search for meaning and comfort.
Heres the video, enjoy it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-206887275399093528&hl=en
Yours truly,
Anthony Smith
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Permalink Reply by Eccl. 12:13 on
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Just a question, Why do you say, "The Holy Spirit Jesus Christ?"
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According to the Gospel accounts of the birth of Jesus, the "beginning of his incarnate existence", was due to the Holy Spirit. The ministry of Jesus following his baptism, in which the Holy Spirit is described in the Gospels as "descending on him like a dove" is conducted in the power and at the direction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and the Spirit of life eternal.
If you understand Greek, the Holy Spirit suggests something other than a person, The Holy Spirit is called "the Power of the Highest." "Spirit" in Greek is pneuma, from which we derive the word "pneumatic." The word roughly means air, wind or breath. If you speak Greek, the wind that moves the leaves on your tree is pneuma. One source called the Holy Spirit "the Breath of Jehovah."
[Jesus said...] "And I [the Son] will pray the Father
and He [the Father] will give you another Helper
that He [the Holy Spirit] may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14.16-17
There are many names for Christ the "Rabbi" the "Good Shepherd," the "Holy Trinity," the "Great High Priest" the "King of the Jews" the "King of kings" the "Lamb of God" the "Last Adam" the "Morning Star" the "Son of Man" the "Word of God," "Immanue." ect.ect.ect. faith is above a name.
I like to know who I am speaking with Eccl. 12:13 the reason I like BPN is because everyone use photos they stand behind what their threads and their word here.
Yours truly,
Anthony Smith
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Permalink Reply by N'ZI Amani Germain on
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Brother,
Of Course Jesus is the Holy Spirit and the the Holy Sipirit is God Himself(Acts 5: 3-4).
Therefore Jesus Christ is God: ONE PERSON.
But, what do people call "Holy Trinity," ?
Blessings,
Bro. Germain
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Bro. Moreh!
I understand your fear!
When a true preacher jumps in a discussion, false teachers naturally tremble!
So, I do understand your fear!
But, let us discuss!
Bro. Germain
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Permalink Reply by James Pierce on
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LOL!
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I forgot to post the Hebrews name for Jesus Christ :Yeshua
Kouassi Germain to answer your question: In Mark 1:1, King James Version The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God...
But, remember the earliest Christians didn’t believe he was divine, to them Jesus was a mere man, until the Council of Nicaea [325 A.D.], “Jesus was viewed by his followers as a mortal prophet . . . a great and powerful man, but a man nonetheless. Not the Son of God.” The emperor Constantine made Jesus divine in the fourth century. However, in St. Paul’s Letter to the Philippians [c. 55 A.D.] Jesus is portrayed as God’s Son and worshipped as Lord. In St. John’s Gospel, written almost two hundred years before Constantine was born, Thomas the Apostle sees the risen Jesus Christ and exclaims. “My Lord and my God!” In the first century they claimed Jesus Christ was only God, and not human at all. By 150 A.D. [175 years before Constantine] Christian writers were listing the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and Paul’s letters as the most reliable sources of information about the life of Jesus and the faith of the apostles.
John 1:1-2, 14, 18 Matthew 1:1, 16, 18 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham. This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Yours truly,
Anthony Smith
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Brother Anthony,
I thank you for your answer.
But let me tell you that this issue has already been discussed(the Divinity of Jesus).
This is what I believe:
YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH (JESUS) IS THE ONE TRUE GOD, YAHWEH ALMIGHTY, THE LORD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT, THE HEAVENLY FATHER!
Please, see the link below for more details:
http://www.blackpreachingnetwork.com/forum/topics/916966:Topic:159914
Bro. Germain
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We can't blame the whole Council of Nicaea because not all of the bishops present signed the Creed, two did not sign, Secundus of Ptolemais and Theonas of Marmarica. Constantine banished them along with Arius [whom he later recalled]. You see, Constantine had been a leader in the cult known as Sol Invictus [Invincible Sun] and wanted to unite the Christian sects in the empire under his existing church; the Universal Church of Rome. Many changes to the religion of Christianity took place at that council because Constantine himself was strongly influenced by certain Arian bishops, particularly by Bishop Eusebius of the capitol city of Nicomedia, and if he did not actually have Arian leanings himself, he had been informed by them that a council of the Church would show that the teaching of Arius was correct. Arius posed the question, "Is Jesus unbegotten?" In other words, he taught that God the Father and the Son did not exist together eternally. Further, Arius taught that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a divine being created by, and possibly inferior to, the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. Supposably, the First Council of Nicaea condemned Arius' doctrine and formulated the Original Nicene Creed, forms of which are still recited in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and some Protestant services. The Nicene Creed's central term, used to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son, is Homoousios, or Consubstantiality, meaning "of the same substance" or "of one being". Supposably, the focus of the Council of Nicaea was the divinity of Christ. Arius taught like I already explained, that Jesus Christ was divine and was sent to earth for the salvation of mankind but that Jesus Christ was not equal to the Father, infinite, primordial origin, and to the ["HOLY SPIRIT"], giver of life. AND THAT ANSWERS THE QUESTION ASKED TO ME BEFORE, "WHY DID I CALL JESUS CHRIST THE HOLY SPIRIT?" BECAUE, I RESPECT ALL RELIGION AND MOST CHRISTIANS BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST TO BE GOD Under Arianism, Christ was instead not consubstantial with God the Father.
Yes your correct, many changes to the religion of Christianity took place at the council, including: formulation for wording concerning the Trinity based on Anthanias, changing verses of Bible, eliminating certain verses and books from the Bible, declaring Arian's "unitarian" [belief in the Unity of God] as heresy, changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, changing the date of Jesus' birthday to December 25th, introduction of Easter [pagan worship called "Feast of Ishtar"] Church of Roman "officially" became the "Universal Church of the Holy Roman Empire" [the word 'Catholic' means 'universal.']
Corruption for personal gain is nothing new in religion much of the material about Mary Magdalen and the Priory of Sion depends on fabricated documents planted in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris by one Pierre Plantard, a criminal with a record for fraud and affiliation with wartime anti-semitic and right-wing groups.
Yours truly,
Anthony Smith
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Anthony,
Constantiine truly suceeded. He had immense hatred for Hebrew people.
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Anthony,
Its true that Constantine, much like his Roman citizens, placed God-status. The truth is, Yeshua'a early Church did not view him as such in that sense, rather, they viewed Yeshua as Yahweh's divine expression(Hebrews 1:1-3). Yeshua was and is the very davar(words) of Yahweh. But, He isn't exactly Yahweh himself as Christianity promotes.
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Permalink Reply by Superintendent Elijah Marshall on
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That's some good info, you just posted Anthony. And you are correct in your saying, when you say the entire Council cant be blamed, because it IS true that all the bishops didnt sign the decree; but the church world REALLY NEEDS TO KNOW that a lot of what the Original church taught and held to in fundamental doctrine WAS in fact changed by the Roman Catholic Church and their heretics. Every believer needs to go back and research church history, and they will discover that there has always been only ONE church; that one Church believed in ONE GOD; believed that JESUS CHRIST was that ONE GOD manifested in the flesh (therefore being the Son of God), and that He also was the Holy Ghost that fell on Pentecost; they always taught that; they kept Saturday as a day of worship (as you mentioned Anthony) simply because even though every day is a holy day in God's eyes (because everyday we should worship Him and live holy and dedicate the day to Him); but they kept Saturday (which is actually correct in proper worship because according to the Hebrew calender (WHICH IS ACTUALLY THE RIGHT CALENDER; THE CALENDER THAT GOD GAVE HIS PEOPLE IN THE WORD; but MAN changed it at this Council of Nicea); but according to the Hebrew Calender, Sunday is the first day of the week, and the Lord created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, and on the seventh (sabbath) day, He rested; and He commanded us in the Ten Commandments to remember that day and keep it holy and do no work therein, commemorating the works He did in Genesis. We also didnt celebrate Easter, Christmas, Valentine's Day, Thanksgiving and a bunch of other man-made and pagan based holidays, that we just go along with blindly... Go back and research the aforementioned holidays you will see most if not all of them are pagan-based. There is nothing wrong with commemorating the birth of our God our Savior (in flesh), but when it comes down to Christmas trees, Christmas lights, Santa Clause, presents (gifts) to other people (and that's not right either because the birth of Christ is about bringing gifts to the Lord during that celebration, not giving gifts to each other), and over-eating and anything else we do, just to be doing.... We need to do our homework, because we never knew of a Trinity, we believed in One God; and that One God is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all by Himself, just in different roles as it relates to humanity. We didnt believe in no seperation of persons in the Godhead; RESEARCH IT!!! Even in the Catholic Encyclopedia, they admit that they changed the doctrine, and brought in the Trinity heresy. We have always baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, but when the catholics changed it, they brought in the words Father, Son and Holy Ghost in baptism, which is not "THE NAME" that Jesus said baptize in Matthew 28:19 (which people overlook when they read that Scripture-- he says the name indicating a singular name --- if he meant Father, Son and Holy Ghost that would be three names if THEY WERE NAMES but they aren't; they are titles of the One true God -- among many titles that He possesses and is)... but anyway, didnt mean to go into all that, but the truth is the truth anyway.... We need to get back to where we come from; because man has robbed us of who really were and brought in his heresy; the apostles of Christ (our forefathers in the spirit), they warned us of the council of nicea coming when they told us to beware of false prophets and false apostles that will rise in the last days and corrupt the truth of God ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST DAYS... they even took out our Holy Feasts we celebrated that God told us to commemorate back in Leviticus that commemorates the acts of deliverance God gave His holy people --- Israel; Feasts that He said should be celebrated and remembered throughout ALL GENERATIONS.. and before anyone tries to call me religious or legalistic... remember Jesus celebrated Passover, he celebrated all the Feast days, are we greater than He? But, anyway, do your homework saints AND AINTS!!!
-Blessings,
Pastor E
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